Bad quality capture

[bri_smit]

I'm using my ATI AIW Radeon 128 32mb card to capture avi's. I've tried the ati software and also Virtual Dub and Ulead DVD Factory and all have given me the same result. Every other frame has horizontal lines, kinda like pulsating while the clip is playing. Below are 2 pics that are from sequential frames. Ones with the lines and the next frame has none. Does anyone know what would be the cause of this. Thanks in advanvce...





<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: bri_smit on 2002-01-13 15:53:55 ]</font>

[vhelp]

bri_,

this is called "interlace". when you capture above (nnn x 240),
ie, 352x480 will give you those "interlace" lines.

Depending on your process (from avi to VCD or SVCD) in your enocode
you have to use the de-interlace filter to (sort of) take out those
nasty lines during play. I've heard many times over, that why do
people use the "de-interlace" filters if they are going to be viewing
on their TVs after burning an VCD or SVCD. Alls I can say is, you
MUST use the de-interlace filter when you burn to SVCD (and I belive
to some extent, VCD's as well) I could be wrong about using this
filter in your VCD final encodes, but most DEFinately for SVCD or xSVCD,
or above ANY 352x240 (ie, 352x480) enocodes, weather VCD or SVCD.

So, in short, use the de-interlace filter in your encoder.

-vhelp

[LavaJockey]

If those are interlace artifacts, and the pictures you posted weren't clear enough for me to be sure of that,
then they are visible because you are viewing
interlaced video on a non-interlaced (progressive) display.
If you view the captured video on an interlaced display,
such as a television, you won't see those artifacts. So
there's not point trying to remove them. If you do try
to remove them, you will lose detail in your picture, no matter what display you use. Basically, do the opposite of what the last poster told you to do.

[vhelp]

LavaJockey,

I've tried this many, many times and to no avail.
If I capture at ie, 352x480 and then proceed to view on my
PC monitor, I can see the lines if I enlarge the 352x480 in
any software player. If I do not change the size/enlarge in
any sotfware player, I don't see too much of those lines, though
I still see them. Besides, I don't capture for viewing on my PC.

Anyways, if I capture at 352x480 and then proceed to encode
(tmpg) to SVCD or my favorite, xSVCD 352x480, with both those
Interlace on in tmpb, (ie, video tab, VideoEncodeMode: Interlace,
and in the Advanced tab, VideoSourceType: Interlace), and once
my xSVCD is complete and I burn to CD and play on my TV, I get
jittery lines or jitter/studder play. And before you ask, NO, its not
the Field order, cause I've done boh A and B and still, Jitters/Studders.
So, in short, if I don't de-interlace this capture, I will have this problem
as origonator is having.
In fact I have an 352x480 that I'm about ready to encode. Care to
show me the proper way of NOT de-interlacing it! He, he, .....
Here, take a look at this image. Its rather hard to see the lines, but
at 2x or better yet, when played on TV, those lines are noticable, that is,
the jitters/stuffer movements is enough!



Yes, you're right about loosing detail. We've all known this loss of
detail when we do de-interlace.

Oh, sorry about the picture size. I found that the 12k was just too
poorly done quality'wise to show. And, the 99k was its best detail
of the lines.

...will check back
-vhelp

[alucard2050]

just a little info. my captures are interlaced. i made a vcd without removing the interlaced lines and viewed it on my tv. the interlace lines where still there. so i have to deinterlace everytime. as far a svcd's. i'm not sure. i think svcd's will play interlaced video without any prob but don't quote me on it............i havn't been able to make a successful svcd to play on my apex yet.......

[Hollywood004738]

If my capture is interlaced I use the "de-interlace" filter
in TMPGenc. When double clicking on this filter you can alter it. I use the "Even-Odd Field Adaption". Works well, but is slow

[vhelp]

alucard,

hay, what Apex R U using?

I have both the AD-500 and AD-1500, and I can play everything I throw at it,
ie, VCD/xVCD/SVCD/xSVCD (I dont do the others, dvd, 4ie)

What is your method/process, from start to finishe, ie, Capture to final CD. . .

bri_smit, R U getting anything out of this so far?

LavaJocky, I'm doing several encodes to test on my TV, ie,
* VCD - 352x240 - (w/ interlace and de-interlace)
* xSVCD - 352x480 - (w/ interlace and de-interlace)

be back with the results.
-vhelp

[bri_smit]

Thanks for replys. I am experimenting with these options right now. Looks like I will need to de-interlase to get a half way descent capture (from a vhs). So far it looks like I won't be able to match the quality of the vhs even in s-vcd format. Must be becasue of my ATI...I have heard alot of bad news about this card

[g0dZpr0fi7]

bri_smit >
Are you sure it's every other frame?
A telecined video will have 3 progessive frames then 2 interlaced frames.
vhelp >
That looks like feild swap to me, have you tried vdubs feild swap filter?

[vhelp]

to all. . .

in all this excitment, my system bombed out and I had to do a reboot!

anyways, I'm about to post (UPload) a 30sec clip.
I will give specs if anyone is interested, but BOTH Interlace paramenters
have ben checked as on in tmpg.

I will post as soon as posible the link to the CLIP here, so please stay
tuned. And, again, an questions, just ask. But for now, just give me some
time to UPload the clip. Thank you. and be right back.

-vhelp

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: vhelp on 2002-01-13 22:45:55 ]</font>

[bri_smit]

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>
On 2002-01-13 20:28:19, g0dZpr0fi7 wrote:
bri_smit >
Are you sure it's every other frame?
A telecined video will have 3 progessive frames then 2 interlaced frames.
</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>
You are right about that, it's not every other frame. I wasn't completely exact in my first post, I thought close enough. What is telecined?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: bri_smit on 2002-01-13 21:12:49 ]</font>

[vhelp]

oops,

I UPloaded the clip in ASCII file mode - DARNit !!!

g0dZpr0fi7, can you explain (since you brought it up) that buis
about the Field Swap??
ie, I see it in DVD2AVI, VirtualDub and I think in TMPG.
...and how to use it in certain capture/encodes scenario's, ie, R U
soppose to use it only for 352x240 or can U use it 4 352x480 as well???
...also, I can't see the reason to use it in DVD2AVI, thougth its there! ! !

Be right back again...

-vhelp

[alucard2050]

vhelp, i have the ad-600a player. my vcd's are NO problem. i capture with the Huffyuv codec at 480x480. i encode useing TMPGE 480x480, cbr1650 bitrate(if i go higher it won't play it).highest motion setting. 128 sound. filters-deinterlace and noise reduction. my vcd's are good but i know svcd can be better. yet i cannot get my player to play svcd's. i have tried different settings in TMPGE, even the standard svcd setting but still nothing. the disk will begin to load in the player, then say svcd, then when i press a key to play it, it says error. i havn't upgraded the firmware. but i'm kind of scared to. i read on here once that if you upgrade the wring firmware it could screw up the player..........

[vhelp]

Ok, to demonstrate the lines or jitter/studders I have in my encodes
using 352x480, the clip U R about to D/L should surfice.

NOTE: I have some minor problems with people D/L'ing my clips
from my current website host. If any of these links do not work the first
time around, try and click on them again. Sometimes, you have to do it a
2nd time. Else, copy to clipboard and paste into your broswer window and
D/L that way - may have to do a 2nd time do to errro you may recieve!!
Also, you have to hold down the SHIFT key while you click on the link for
it to work, else it will display on your screen.

<< I've closed link >>

NOTE: this will be a limited download. . . I may
take it off some time tomorrow, 1-14-2002, maybe pm or
am.

So, please D/L the clip soon as possible, else you'll miss out.

Here's the specs for this encode (audio is 128k NOT 224k)
--------------------------------------------------------

Any questions, please ask.

-vhelp

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: vhelp on 2002-01-14 19:57:06 ]</font>

[alucard2050]

for myself, the only way i can do a vcd is to deinterlace either the even or odd field. if i swap both fields then i get jitters. i'm downloading the file now so i'll see if its the same jitters i get.......

[LavaJockey]

Re: the jittery motion: Could it be that you are dropping
frames on playback? I had this problem. Here is one way to diagnose it: Use VirtualDub. Download the Add Frame
Numbers filter from, I forget the URL. Take a sample AVI
clip and add frame numbers to it. Encode that to SVCD in
whatever way you are now using. Playback the SVCD with the frame numbers and record that with a VCR. Then single step
the recorded tape to determine if any frames are missing.

[vhelp]

Lavajockey,

Sorry, but that's a little too out of my way to find/resolve my jitter issues.

However, I think I have found a little "ahaa" in my captures.
Using Powerdvd, I can press pause once, and then press the "T" key to advance
to every frame (way more easier then your steps you laid out above) and while
I press the "T" key, I cound how many times I see the lines, and how
many times I don't. so far, what I have seen is this sequence
(given NL+noline, L=Line) then:
* NL:NL:NL:L:L:NL:NL:NL:L:L. . . . .

I've ben messing with:
* 3:2 pulldown
* inverse 3:2 pulldown
* and in Advanced tab, [x] Inverse Telecine

But the above is still showing the
* NL:NL:NL:L:L:NL:NL:NL:L:L. . . . . pattern!

Something is just not right, in working here w/ the above combination
of steps.

* Has anyone D/L'ed my clip yet?
* I've noticed that when you put your dvd player in 3x mode, you can
count 3 by 2... (ie, NL:NL:NL:L:L:NL:NL:NL:L:L. . . . . ) especially when
the couple are in the car and the guy wants her to get out. You'll notice
the studders quite easily there.

-vhelp

[vhelp]

lavajockey, and others...

forgot to mention, that you may want to give my powerdvd method a try,
instead of going the vcr route. Unless I missed sometihng?? Seems to
work for me though.

In my above cllip sample, I used my Apex AD-500 as my test tool. The clip
is really for TV viewing, though 4 some reason, you can actually enjoy it
on PC monitor.

I'm a bit pressed for space on my other website, so I may have to take down
all the images I have up here real soon. That goes for the 5MB sample clip
above a few posts.

-vhelp

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: vhelp on 2002-01-14 00:24:34 ]</font>

[browsing]

fiinished downloading your sample.

was excellent quality capture you have, but did notice the
lines. hope you fix. want more of your specs and things
to get your greatlooking vcd's or is it svcds?
and liked that logo you used its awsome!

if anyone fixing this problem you having with these lines
in your clips. I want to know. fix fast.

bin reeading here for some time now. very interesting to
see all this clips and vcds and stuff. (my first post)

thank you all for good reading here. great site!

[bri_smit]

That is (was) exactly what my capture did...the "NL:NL:NL:L:L:NL:NL:NL:L:L" thing you wrote. I tried de-interlase and it got rid or most of it. My source is not that great to begin with as I am trying to digitize some old concert footage from vhs. Still playing with Ulead DVD Factory, it's very user friendly for a newbie like me, although it doesn't have too many options. Much more to learn...

[vhelp]

well, did you see if my clip did the same thing?
I've ben messing around with the interlacing issue too, but when I DO
manage to get out the lines, and I play via powerdvd or dvd player,
the clip now seems to jump, during those missing "interlaced lines" that
I managed to get rid of. so, I'm on the right track,but it would seem
that I'm takng out the wrong combo number of frames in the clip.

If you haven't already, d/l the clip and see if it jumps/shows lines on your
dvd player. What I'm trying to find out (for shore) is that it does it on
everyone's dvd player, and not just mine own. So far, only one person
has d/l'ed my clip, so it seems here.

Anyone else have any suggestoins on the proper tech. to:
* get rid of lines (interlace)
* stop the jitters/jumpy movements, etc.
in OUR final encodes???

Thank you all.

-vhelp

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: vhelp on 2002-01-14 19:58:08 ]</font>

[bri_smit]

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>
On 2002-01-14 18:12:15, vhelp wrote:


well, did you see if my clip did the same thing?
I've ben messing around with the interlacing issue too, but when I DO
manage to get out the lines, and I play via powerdvd or dvd player,
the clip now seems to jump, during those missing "interlaced lines" that
I managed to get rid of. so, I'm on the right track,but it would seem
that I'm takng out the wrong combo number of frames in the clip.

If you haven't already, d/l the clip and see if it jumps/shows lines on your
dvd player. What I'm trying to find out (for shore) is that it does it on
everyone's dvd player, and not just mine own. So far, only one person
has d/l'ed my clip, so it seems here.

Anyone else have any suggestoins on the proper tech. to:
* get rid of lines (interlace)
* stop the jitters/jumpy movements, etc.
in OUR final encodes??? (D/L clip here)

Thank you all.

-vhelp
</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>
I D/L'ed you clip, converted to S-Vcd (ntsc) 480x480. When I played the clip in ATI File Player, I could see the lines but it did not jump. When I played the svcd in my Apex AD-660 it DID jump. So far my best luck has been capture at high res mpeg2 w/ de-interlase. Like I said tho, I'm just beginning so I haven't tried any other options.