Closed captions via a component connection

[bighill57]

Not sure if this is the correct forum, but here goes anyway.

Does anyone know why closed captions are not available via a component connection? I have 2 dvdr's connected to my TV via the 2 component connections and neither will pass the captions. The captions do appear when I connect using composite, so I know the dvdr's are recording the captions.

Would appreciate any thoughts on this!!

[jliles]

bighill57,

I'm not 100% positive on this but I think closed captions can't be displayed if the signal being passed is progressive instead of interlaced. Try an experiment and turn off progressive scan in your players and see if the captions show up.

Please post your results so we know what happened.

Julie

[bighill57]

Julie,

Thanks for the quick response!! I will certainly give that a try when I get home from work tonight and post my results around this time tomorrow.

Thanks again for your help!!

[handyguy]

Captions work fine with any of my component connections.

[bighill57]

You know, I just don't understand this. I switched over from progressive to interlaced as Julie suggested and still no luck.

I'm beginning to think the problem is with my TV. It rolls captions perfectly via the cable and composite feed but simply will not send them thru via component. Oh well, that's what I get for buying a Sanyo from Walmart.

Thanks anyway for the help!!

[edDV]

I don't see how the TV can stop CC from a DVD. It must be the DVD player settings. Try the DVD player on a different TV.

[handyguy]

Some dvd players won't let the cc signal through. I'd try another dvd player.

[Megahurts]

The CC data is broadcast on line 21 in the vertical blanking interval.

I checked a DVR with a scope on the composite/S-Video outputs and the CC data was there but no data on the component output.

I don't believe a CC decoder in a TV connects to component inputs.

[bighill57]

Thanks for all the input folks!!!

For me, it isn't really about being able to see the captions anymore. Now it has become a personal campaign to figure out what is actually causng the problem.

I certainly agree with edDV when he said "I don't see how the TV can stop CC from a DVD" The TV is nothing more than a monitor and as long as the captions have been properly recorded, then they should appear. It's funny that when I play a copyrighted dvd on either of my DVDR's, the captions are present and viewable. The problem only occurs when I play a recorded TV program.

I have my digital cable connected to the tv via video input 1 which is a composite jack and is connect with an S-video connector. The captions appear via this connection. I also have an analog connection to the tv via the coax coming from the splitter. Again the captions appear.

My Panasonic DMR-ES15S DVDR is connected to the tv via video input 2 which is a component jack and is connected with a quality component cable. I have switched the DVDR to interlaced, as suggested by Julie, without success.

My second DVDR is a Magnavox MWR10D6 and is connected to the tv via video input 3 also a component jack. Once again, I am using a quality component cable and the DVDR's output is set to interlaced.

Megahurts - Did I understand you to say that when you inspected the DVDR component output with a scope there were no data present? Does that mean the DVDR wasn't passing captions via the component output?

Monday is my day off and I will take both DVDR's over to a friend's house and see if they thru-put captions via his component connections.

Again, thanks for all positive feedback!!

[Megahurts]

Megahurts - Did I understand you to say that when you inspected the DVDR component output with a scope there were no data present? Does that mean the DVDR wasn't passing captions via the component output?

Yes, the CC data is not present on the component outputs.

A commercial DVD has subtitles, not Closed Caption. The subtitles are added to the video in the DVD player.

Closed caption uses a MTS decoder in the TV set and then added to the video.

[edDV]

I'm not an expert on closed captioning (CC) but commercial DVD and TV recording to DVDR are two very different subjects.

Analog NTSC broadcasting puts CC on line 21 in the vertical interval. You sometimes see the dancing dots at the top of the screen from on-air broadcasts. Some computer nerds complain. Most never see it due to overscan. Some DVD recorder manufactureres include the vertical interval test signals (VITS) or vertical interval time code (VITC) but many don't want the headache of support and only record active video.

I don't know if passing CC (line 21) is in any DVD recording standard. Broadcast station practice is to strip the vertical interval at import and to selectively reinsert certain lines of data at the transmitter. I don't know what a typical DVD recorder does.

ATI is the king of closed captioning reproduction, but only if you use their MMC and player.

[bighill57]

Megahurts,

THANK YOU for the prompt reply!!!

Can you suggest any options?? I use the captions alot especially when I watch my recorded episodes of Deadwood. The dialog in that program is very difficult to follow without the captions being present so any thoughts you might have would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks again!!!

[bighill57]

edDV,

THANK YOU for the post!!! The main reason I use the internet is as a research tool for issues such as this.

Also, it is great to be able to ask a question without getting flamed. Most message boards I've seen are loaded with people who just want to break ba**s, so it is very rare that I post on any forum.

I never knew there was so much going on behind the scenes with regards to captions. Guess I just took them for granted.

Again, thanks for the help!!!

[BobT]

When you try to get information on closed captions it can be difficult. I have a hearing problem so I regularly view TV shows with the closed captions on (CC). I started recording TV shows with the ATI All in wonder 7500. Although the card will display CC it will not put them in a recording. It is very difficult to add CC to mpeg recordings and requires a lot of effort. About 18 months ago I decided to change to a DVD recorder and started using the Pioneer DVR220. The first show I recorded I used mpeg-vcr to remove the commercials and then TMpgenc DVD author to make a DVD and burned with NERO. I started watching the recording and suddenly realized that the CC was displayed. Now, if you look at the Pioneer manual there is no mention of CC in the manual! All of the Pioneer DVD recorders will capture CC but it is not mentioned in their manuals. I find that this is fairly common. As for DVDs most of the current DVDs being released have both CC and subtitles. I have, however, seen DVDs with only CC and no subtitles and subtitles with no CC. There is no standard. I have never seen an issue with CC being stripped by a component connection. I have used several types of manual and automatic component switch boxes and the CC is always present. I just started using a Motorola DCT700 (Comcast) and it has a component output which I have connected to the Pioneer recorder. The CC content still apprears at this ouput. Some DVD players may not display CC. I had an early Daewoo and Apex which would not pass CC. The only way to find out usually is to play a DVD with known CC in the video.

[edDV]

When you try to get information on closed captions it can be difficult. I have a hearing problem so I regularly view TV shows with the closed captions on (CC). I started recording TV shows with the ATI All in wonder 7500. Although the card will display CC it will not put them in a recording.

I recall that ATI AIW will record analog line 21 closed captions in their proprietary "VCR" format but I may have that wrong.

Analog TV broadcasts have CC encoded on line 21 as analog pulses. If the recorder includes line21 (like analog VCR's do), then an analog TV can decode the captions on playback. Digital TV broadcasts have CC in the MPeg2 MUX and these can be stripped and added to DVD authoring. Digital TV tuners can read the MPeg2 captions.

Commercial DVDs have CC in the MPeg2 MUX. The captions are created in the DVD player not in the TV.

[handyguy]

In case you want them, it's very easy to get the captions out of a dvd, just use VSRip.exe.
It's free, should be on this site.

[Nelson37]

The ATI cards do indeed record CC data when using the proprietary "VCR" format. Only player besides MMC which will play this is Ulead DVD player, SFAIK.

ATI also captures CC into a text file, again only in VCR format. Quite simple to convert this to subtitle format and include in authored DVD. Have made several dozen.

Very few tools to author or even deal with in any way the Closed Captions.

[handyguy]

"Quite simple to convert this to subtitle format and include in authored DVD."

What kind of process did you use?

[Nelson37]

I cheated, I wrote a little utility program to do the conversion. I think McPoodle is hosting it now, sent it to him but have not actually checked if it is hosted there.

Will e-mail it to you if you want it, just send me a PM.

Also wrote a little utility to adjust subtitle timings for commercial removal, works with the EDL file made by Comskip, this is just IN and OUT in seconds, comma seperated, one line per cut. Maximum of 15 cuts.

Have found the output similar to the Graphedit extraction method, with some improvement on the short display times and almost complete elimination of overlapping times causing failure to display.

[handyguy]

If I want to make closed captions into open captions (These show captions without a decoder), I just run the signal through a box called a Telecaption II. These old things output an open caption signal you can record. They dont look like subtitles & don't behave like them but you can read them just fine.

[ChesterDVD]

Hey Big Hill.... were you ever able to resolve this issue??
I have been going through this myself, and the "problem" is with your TV, not the DVDs.
Ever notice how the back of a DVD box sometimes says Closed Captioned...but then when you try to watch it the subtiutles do NOT work? That is because there is a difference between subtitles and CC. CC is required by law, but subtitles are just an optional bonus. Subtitles are on the actual disk; CCs come from your TV

Now, a few years ago, if you were watching your regular TV and you turned on the DVD player or vcr, then the TV would go blank and the DVD/VCR would take over the screen. That's because all your viewing had ONE input (that is, one component). But nowadays, the TV feed is on a DIFFERENT component from the dvd player, and you noticed that. On my TV ((and I suspect you have the same problem)), subtitles only display on COMPONENT 1. When I hook a dvd player to component 1, the CCs work fine. But the CCs do NOT work on Component 2. So in order to watch a dvd with CC's, i have to re-wire everything and make the cable box (tv) into component 2 and the dvd player Comp 1. I cannot keep it this wat permanently, because it screws up my HD Pain in the butt.

I've been trying for a long time to get the CC's to appear on ALL the components, instead of just C1. Even the manufactrurer is confused by all of this. They told me just to press the Subtitle option on my DVD menu, and it's frustrating trying to explain this. Anyway...I don't think I can help you, but I hope this explanation shows what is going on. YOu are recording correctly, but many TVs do not display CC's except on the main component. If you yourself have found a way around this, please let ME know!!

C

[handyguy]

Sometimes you won't get CC's if you are running it in progressive mode. You have to turn that off.