TV Tuner S-Video Capturing Problem

[jagabo]

Can anyone please verify capturing/editing in mpeg2 would be ok and the final result would be pretty much on par with the original footage?

How much processing are you planning on? Simple cut/paste operations won't cause much degredation (depending on the software you use). If you perform a lot of image processing operations (brightness, contrast, hue, sharpening, etc) you'll get better results if you capture as YUY2 AVI.

I don't remember you mentioning audio in your captures. Audio compression can also be a cause of dropped frames. Try YUY2 capture with HuffYUV compression, and uncompressed PCM audio.

[edDV]

Can anyone please verify capturing/editing in mpeg2 would be ok and the final result would be pretty much on par with the original footage?

DV editing is higher quality. DV format is intended for editing and includes every field.

You have been on a journey that shows why uncompressed is difficult and requires high end PC hardware for capture. Next you will find that capture to MPeg2 requires a very high speed processor and even then, the quality will be subpar to software encoding.

The MPeg2 approach is best done from an uncompressed capture or from a hardware encoding capture device like the Hauppauge PVR series. But you still will be editing MPeg2.

The more you go around these circles, the more you will find the productivity and quality advantages of DV transcoding and editing. That is why the Prosumer community has gone this direction.

[monkeytastic]

jagabo

They'll be around 500 clips with a title graphic watermarked on the top left throughout. There won't be any filters etc. apart from a few crossfades here and there. There will also be a music track along with the original sound.

When I tried capturing using huffy I tried uncompressed PCM sound and that still yielded dropped frames

edDV
Thanks for the explanation. So what would you recommend for my current setup? i.e. more ram, better capture card? another computer

I've only just come back to editing for a one off project - have made 7 similar 30 - 45 minute videos in the past using mediastudio and a humble 733 pc so can't understand why this 1ghz can't capture fullscreen avi like previous. The only reason I can think of is that I used to have an ATI capture card with s-video and 256 ram. instead of the current TV tuner card and 190mb ram.

[edDV]

jagabo

They'll be around 500 clips with a title graphic watermarked on the top left throughout. There won't be any filters etc. apart from a few crossfades here and there. There will also be a music track along with the original sound.

When I tried capturing using huffy I tried uncompressed PCM sound and that still yielded dropped frames

edDV
Thanks for the explanation. So what would you recommend for my current setup? i.e. more ram, better capture card? another computer

I've only just come back to editing for a one off project - have made 7 similar 30 - 45 minute videos in the past using mediastudio and a humble 733 pc so can't understand why this 1ghz can't capture fullscreen avi like previous. The only reason I can think of is that I used to have an ATI capture card with s-video and 256 ram. instead of the current TV tuner card and 190mb ram.

Was the ATI capture card using hardware assisted encoding? Like the All-In-Wonder?

Bottom line if you want to use this old computer hardware, you should invest in a hardware DV or MPeg2 transcoder/capture device. For DV format the choices are a "pass-thru" MiniDV or Digital8 camcorder or a transcoder device like the Canopus ADVC or AVS Pyro. For MPeg2 the Hauppauge PVR line is well proven and easily resold when your project is finished.

[monkeytastic]

Was the ATI capture card using hardware assisted encoding? Like the All-In-Wonder?

Yep, pretty certain it was an All-In-Wonder. Did this work because it had it's own inbuilt memory?

I'll take onboard your other suggestions. I did try running the s-video signal to the camera and then via firewire to the laptop but this never worked so when the firewire was working, I was recording to digital8 then capturing that.

[edDV]

Was the ATI capture card using hardware assisted encoding? Like the All-In-Wonder?

Yep, pretty certain it was an All-In-Wonder. Did this work because it had it's own inbuilt memory?

The All in Wonder is another option for what you are doing. It has hardware processing assist when MMC capture software is used. This reduces the encoding load for the CPU to a manageable level. The PVR series takes the full load of MPeg2 encoding into the card.

I'll take onboard your other suggestions. I did try running the s-video signal to the camera and then via firewire to the laptop but this never worked so when the firewire was working, I was recording to digital8 then capturing that.

Then that camcorder didn't have the "analog pass thru" feature. If you had the feature, the camcorder would act as a transcoder taking S-Video and audio in and convert to DV over IEEE-1394 out directly without need to record on the camcorder.

[monkeytastic]

edDV

ok, that's cleared a few things up, thank you.

I'm currently giving AVI-IO a go, signal is coming through fine but won't let me capture Not sure whether this is because it's a trial version?

Anyway, I think I'll look into getting an All In Wonder card and that should hopefully help. Have had a look on ebay but need to find which one to go for if anyone can help?

Thanks again.

[edDV]

edDV

ok, that's cleared a few things up, thank you.

I'm currently giving AVI-IO a go, signal is coming through fine but won't let me capture Not sure whether this is because it's a trial version?

Anyway, I think I'll look into getting an All In Wonder card and that should hopefully help. Have had a look on ebay but need to find which one to go for if anyone can help?

Thanks again.

"coming through fine" to the monitor (low res) is a different thing than capturing the uncompressed video to disk.

AGP AIW cards are getting very cheap. Many are being dumped on Ebay as people move to PCIe.

Still AIW has a reputation for horror show install experiences, so I would still point you to DV or Hauppauge PVR if you want this to be easy.

[The_Doman]

edDV
I'm currently giving AVI-IO a go, signal is coming through fine but won't let me capture Not sure whether this is because it's a trial version?

What error does it give then?
The trial version is fully functional, the only limitation is the capture size of maximal 3 segments (4 Gigabyte per segment if I recall correctly).

You need to define the capturedisks/segment size correctly.

[monkeytastic]

edDV

Will have a look into DV or Hauppauge PVR.

What error does it give then?
The trial version is fully functional, the only limitation is the capture size of maximal 3 segments (4 Gigabyte per segment if I recall correctly).

You need to define the capturedisks/segment size correctly.

Where are the capturedisck/segment size options? I've changed the capture time limit to 30 seconds, frames per second to 25, Maximum file size to 500mb

[winifreid]

Those cards have hardware mpeg encoders. I do not think they will help with avi capture. You did not say if your primary ide channel was in dma mode. Since you can capture to full frame mpeg, I can't be your cpu. I suspect the problem still lies in your HD set up. Make sure it is in dma mode and is defragmented. Also be sure that other programs are turned off. You might try vdub to capture.

[monkeytastic]

Hi. winifreid

I went into the device manager and the primary drive is set to Ultra DMA Mode 2. The drive was new, bought yesterday. So I formatted it and only have XP, Mediastudio Pro and a couple of capture programmes installed. I'll try defragmenting now but not sure whether it's really worth it. Actually, I'll give Vdub a go first.

[The_Doman]

Where are the capturedisck/segment size options? I've changed the capture time limit to 30 seconds, frames per second to 25, Maximum file size to 500mb

It should look something like this for PAL:
Possible you need to disable overlay mode when capturing, this depends on the drivers/card combination used.

[jagabo]

I've tried uncompressed 320 x 240 (no D1 was showing on the compression)

Also Huffy 320 x 240.

Both YUY2

Shouldn't you be using 352x288 25 fps since you're capturing PAL? There is something seriously wrong if you drop frames with HuffYUV at that small a frame size. Even uncompressed YUY2 or RGB shouldn't be a problem.

[edDV]

Hi. winifreid

I went into the device manager and the primary drive is set to Ultra DMA Mode 2. The drive was new, bought yesterday. So I formatted it and only have XP, Mediastudio Pro and a couple of capture programmes installed. I'll try defragmenting now but not sure whether it's really worth it. Actually, I'll give Vdub a go first.

I've lost track which capture software you are using. Please detail your settings on Virtualdub so we can duplicate what you are doing.

[monkeytastic]

I've lost track which capture software you are using. Please detail your settings on Virtualdub so we can duplicate what you are doing.

Hi.

1. I allocated 1000mb disc space (I know it's far more than needed)

2. Device -> 1.TV capture card 7130 (Direct show)
(not microsoft WFW or Video file/Emulation)

3. Video source -> s-video

4. Capture pin -> PAL-B, YUY2 compression, Output size: 720x576

5. Preview pin -> same as above but 320x240

6. Capture filter -> video decoder -> PAL-B, Signal detected: 1, Lines detected 625, VCR input: unchecked.

7. Compression: Huffy v2.1.1 (have also tried YUY2 no recompression)

On a 14 second capture using the above, I get:

Frames captured: 197
Total file size: 54.7mb
CPU usage: 68%
Video compression ratio: 3.0.1
Frames dropped: 0
Frames inserted: 130
Resample 0.99939x

I tried using the original 20gb 7200 drive this morning but still got the same results

[winifreid]

But this doesn't indicate that yo had any dropped frames.

[monkeytastic]

Winifreid

It's definately not full screen AVI, when I put the file into mediastudio pro then create a dvd out of it.

I also tried capturing again using mediastudio pro and was getting around 50 dropped frames per 10 second capture.

[jagabo]

It's definately not full screen AVI, when I put the file into mediastudio pro then create a dvd out of it.

What does that have to do with dropping frames?

If you captured a 4:3 source the tell MSP that your AVI is 4:3 DAR and master as 4:3 DVD.

[monkeytastic]

jagabo.

What I mean to say is the quality is not full screen uncompressed avi - it's jerky/blocky. It is full screen in the sense that it fills the screen as 720x576. I created a full screen avi out of the capture via mediastudio. Sorry but I don't understand what DAR means.

[jagabo]

DAR = Display Aspect Ratio

The aspect ratio at which video is displayed isn't necessarily the aspect ratio of the frame size in pixels. For example 480x480 NTSC SVCD has a frame size aspect ratio of 1:1 (4:4) but the picture is displayed as 4:3.

You need to isolate the source of the jerkiness in your videos. There are many possible errors that can lead to different types of jerkiness.

First open your AVI file with VirtualDubMod. Locate a section where there should be smooth motion. Step through the frames one by one (use the left/right arrow keys). Does the motion look smooth there? Or do you get skips or duplicate frames? If the AVI is jerky you have a bad capture.

If the AVI file is OK look at the MPEG file you created from that. If the AVI was smooth and the MPEG is jerky you did something wrong during the conversion.

Blockiness is usually a sign that you did not use enough bitrate.

[winifreid]

You indicate that you captured with huffy at full screen without any dropped frames. If you play back the captured avi using vdub, does it look okay? If yes, then your problem in media studio encoding.

[jagabo]

If you play back the captured avi using vdub, does it look okay?

I specified "step through the frames one by one" rather than "play back" because VirtualDub isn't optimized as a player and is often jerky when used as such -- especially on slower computers.

[monkeytastic]

Thanks for bearing with me

I'll try your suggestions later today. I thought it was going to be simply a case of capturing with no problems using this computer/tv tuner card. I'm tempted to get hold of an ATI All in Wonder to see if this makes any difference.

[monkeytastic]

Right, I just opened the original and file created from msp in vdub and it appears that the capture is bad i.e when I run frame by frame, there are definitely skipped frames.

When capturing, I could see a lot of jerkyness but was hoping this wouldn't relate to the actual capture also. It feels like the capture card can't keep up even though it worked fine capturing mpeg2 full screen.

[winifreid]

What do you mean the "file created from msp in vdub "? Are you looking at the captured avi or the file you later encoded with MSP? Your log indicated that the avi had no dropped frames.

[monkeytastic]

I tried both - the original file captured using vdub and the file created from msp via importing the captured vdub file.

When I capture, the preview screen is also useless - jerky and can't make out where I need to stop capturing. Plays fine when not capturing.

I know hear what you're saying about dropped frames but I've tried creating various files including frame-based, upper/lower field etc and each file has missing frames.

[monkeytastic]

Also what does 'frames inserted' mean?

I'm getting loads of these and read in the help section that these are inserted to make up for a slow video stream.

[jagabo]

Device -> 1.TV capture card 7130 (Direct show)

I don't know what card you're capturing with but 7130 is a Philips video capture chip -- so I suspect your card uses that chip. From what I've read, and from personal experience, Philips based cards are very finicky. You may be stuck using the software that came with the card if you want hi-res captures.

I was able to capture from my AverTV Go 007 FM Plus (Philips based) at 320x240 with VirtualDub and AVI_IO without dropping frames. That was with uncompressed YUY2, Divx (at its Fastest setting), Xvid (at it real-time setting, PicVideo MJPEG, etc. That was on a 2.8 GHz P4 and capturing to a 7200 RPM drive (not the boot drive). CPU usage varied from about 4 to 10 percent depending on the codec.

[monkeytastic]

jagabo.

what do you think of ATI All in wonder cards? I've read on hear that they seem to be good and also have seen a few listed on ebay. If possible do you know of a specific model that would work with my system?

I really think it stems down to the card - not that I really know! as I've tried a few types of capturing software and the only one that gives reasonable results is when I use the card's own software.