DVD Recorders and copyrighted TV

[InXess]

Could someone indicate which DVD recorders refuse to record TV shows due to copyright flag. I know that some Sony models had this issue. What kind of programming is usually affected? I'm sure it was discussed before... need some pointers though.

[peggypwr1]

My Liteon 5115 GHC+ had iss ues with copyright flag. It is very annoying, I canot record some shows off Comcast On Demand.

[BobT]

You will have a difficult time finding a DVD recorder that does not have CPRM. I have a Pioneer recorder and it has CPRM but I have never attempted to record a TV show or movie and seen it activated. I use Comcast on the US east coast and, until recently, recorded only the analog channels. I don't know about the pay per view or premium comcast channels as I don't subscribe to them. I just switched to Comcast digital with their new Motorola DCT700 box. The DCT700 has capability to output a Macrovision signal but it appears that Comcast does not activate/utilize it. Also almost all of the DVD recorders will not record a TV signal properly with Macrovision.

[normcar]

Do any of the Sima devices or any other device allow you to record without degrading quality?

[akrako1]

I have a Pioneer DVR-320 and haven't had any problems recording from Comcast in Chicago. Analog channels, Digital Channels, Premium Channels, On-Demand, or HD - all record fine. I record all thru the S-Video out of the cable box. Now recording from macrovision-enabled video tapes via my vcr - that didn't work until I got a signal 'clarifier' (or tbc).

[FulciLives]

Been a while since I've tried to record from a channel where one might expect the copyright flag but right before the 6th season of THE SOPRANOS started the HBO ON DEMAND ran every episode from the very 1st up to the last episode of season 5 and I recorded all of them using my Pioneer DVD recorder.

I also recorded all the episodes from SHOWTIME's MASTERS OF HORROR show that start last October and ran several months. I had no problem but you would think that a TV series aired exclusivly on a channel like SHOWTIME would have the copyright flag ... if not then what else would warrent it, right?

I should point out that I live in Pittsburgh, PA (east coast) and have Comcast cable. The cable box I have is the Motorola DCT 6412 III which is a very popular cable box to be used by various cable companies in the USA (or so I have heard).

Anyways if you need to defeat the copy flag the only product that I have heard of which supposedly does work is the VIDEO FILTER.

Here is the webstie ---> CLICK HERE

My understanding is that a well known user at the AVS FORUM is behind this and a lot of avsforum users have reported great success using this "video filter".

I don't have one myself so I can't give you my own opinion other than I would buy one if I needed it.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[FulciLives]

In my last post I mentioned the "video filter" as a "black box" that defeats all known copy protection including the broadcast flag.

Well I was searching the 'net and foudn this ---> CLICK HERE

This device (called the Grex) appears to work the same way as the "video filter" but it is a lot cheaper.

It is made by a company called DIMAX and they are known for making the "DVD Red" and "DVD Red Pro" which is a device that eliminate copy protection (although apparently not the broadcast flag).

Some have used the DVD Red and RedPro with success but I have also heard of people using it without success.

Since I've never heard of the Grex by DIMAX I don't know if it works well or not. Based on the track record of DIMAX I am a bit leary of the Grex but I thought it was worth mentioning.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[InXess]

At the moment I don't have any particular need or appetite for a specific programming. Very few shows that I decide to keep are usually with kids in mind yet when the time comes, and it seems rather inevitable, I would like to know about surprises I can avoid. Obviously I've been spoiled (in Big Studios opinion at least) with the freedom that my VCR gave me for so many years. Encountering a copyrighted flag and "can't do that" message from a DVD recorder really sucks and I'd like to know which ones are notorious for that. From my perspective every show is a intellectual property not just some flagged ones yet it was widely accepted that cable broadcast was recorded by viewers and no one made fuss about that (maybe they have but not loud enough that we all had to surrender our VCR's). I 'd like to treat DVD recorder as an extension of my VCR functionality and will not settle for a "crippled" unit.

In (your link) Video Filter test report they say "...Panasonic’s excessively restrictive handling of video signals..."- one more hint.

[Jeremiah58]

LG will refuse to record TV shows due to copyright flag.

[InXess]

Do you own it? LG seems to be a nice unit. What programming is usually flagged?

[Logicdesign]

The Video filter is the only unit that I know of, which gives the user the choice of what kind of CGMS flag to send to the recording device. It is CPRM compatible by letting the user select "Copy Always" or "Copy Once". It also has WideScreen Signaling capability. Another way to control if the programming being recorded is 16:9 or 4:3. This allows proper playback on both aspect ratios. Some find this convinient because it eliminates an exta editing step on the PC, to change the flag on the recording.

[ricoman]

My Panny ES10 is just over a year old, but it has never failed to copy from HBO or Showtime etc., movies, Sopranos, Deadwood, Elizabeth I, no prob. Despite what a couple of people like to say about Panasonic, I have never had a problem with it and am very happy with it. I copy directly or from the cable DVR. I don't know if newer models will copy copy-protected content.

[Seeker47]

Encountering a copyrighted flag and "can't do that" message from a DVD recorder really sucks and I'd like to know which ones are notorious for that.

Per my recall of the consensus from a number of earlier threads on this subject:
There are some significant brand (and maybe model ?) variations, as regards the recording behavior for DVRs. Some may balk at recording some channels or shows, even when the BF is not present. (Call that a "false positive," I guess. Perhaps some kind of oversensitivity in the unit's design.) Like Fulci, I have never encountered a problem with my Pioneer -- I believe we both have the 520, a 2004 model. However, which providers do or do not pass the broadcast flag is the far more critical factor. Don't know about any other relevant flags that may be present in the signal and figure in here.
In time it may become ubiquitous and unavoidable, but for now, I'd say that if your provider passes the BF, dump 'em, ASAP. We had Adelphia, which was an inferior cable service, but at least did not pass the BF. So far, no sign that their successor -- Time Warner -- is doing it. I haven't seen any reports of recording issues from DirecTV.

I had no problem but you would think that a TV series aired exclusivly on a channel like SHOWTIME would have the copyright flag ... if not then what else would warrent it, right?

Pay Per View events and On Demand movies or shows seem the most likely candidates to me.

Anyways if you need to defeat the copy flag the only product that I have heard of which supposedly does work is the VIDEO FILTER.

Earlier threads strongly suggested that a TBC 1000 should strip the BF out. Some will find that a fairly expensive cure. Other such devices like the AVT 8710 may also. I have a Sima CT-200 (which I can't recommend to anyone, for other reasons), but no known to be BF-compromised signal to test it on.

[FulciLives]

As far as I am concerned the verdict is still out as to if a Full Frame TBC can defeat the broadcast flag.

One would think that it would defeat the broadcast flag at least I do based on my understanding of how a Full Frame TBC works ... but I've yet to see anyone actually do a test.

In short if someone has a Full Frame TBC and a DVD recorder try to find a cable/satellite program that won't let you record then put the Full Frame TBC in the path and see if it does anything ... or not.

You would think I have one but I don't. Also for the record I have the Pioneer DVR-531H-s which was the 2005 model. So far (knock on wood) I've been able to copy anything from cable including some ON DEMAND stuff (but the free stuff ... I don't order PAY PER VIEW stuff). I have Comcast cable and the Motorola DCT 6412 III cable box.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[Jeremiah58]

Do you own it? LG seems to be a nice unit. What programming is usually flagged?

Yes, I own it. It's a couple of years old LG DR4800. It happens only while I try to record certain movies which are broadcasted by one of those public TV stations here in Croatia. I get that error message "Uncopyable movie - cannot record".
I remember when I read the documentation which came with this unit that it will not record anything which has a copyright flag, so it must be some sort of a copy protection broadcasted with those movies.

[scruge]

I had a Philips DVDR3455 for about 3 wks before I took it back because it kept locking up.


In the little time I had it, I found it would record to hdd most anything, however it would not record to DVD copywrited material.

In order to convert my VHS tapes over to DVD I discovered by accident that my worthless 6 year old Dazzle DV Bridge stripped all copywrite info from the composit signal when placed in pass-through mode, which allowed the recorder to burn DVDs.

And to think I came real close to throwing the Dazzle DV bridge away several years earlier.

[bevills1]

My Lite-On LVW-5005 with mod firmware to remove macrovision and be region free has copied all digital I've tried from DirectTV. Don't know if mod firmware is reason or if all 5005s record digital broadcasts.

[LCSHG]

[bevills1]

Your 5005 and some others are no longer being made They are Non Compliant and accept a hack some of the later motels of the 5005 were not and some were a one way st. with firmware. You could not go back to a previous firmware version.

Firmware is like the BIOS in a PC. It tells the unit what to do

As to TBC
The following is a Quote by person that I consider most knowlidge on the subject

Quote
I think that a TBC will only work on signal based CP and not encoded based. Since MV is a siganl based CP, the TBC can filter it, since that is what a TBC is for, stabilizing the picture. Most of the encoded types of CP, like what HBO and Cinamax uses, will not be filterable by a TCB since it is not video signal based CP, it is bits encoded into the data stream. That is why DVD rippers are able, for the most part, able to do what they do. They are able to rip and delete the CP bits while ripping the DVD to the computer.

"Unquote"


PS
There have been reports that the Polaroid and some others can copy CP programs and media without any hack and way be Non Compliant.

[Logicdesign]

There must be a distinction made between Broadcast Flag and CGMS. There is no such thing as a Broadcast Flag transmitted over the air, cable or any other medium. As far as I know, it was never implemented. The kind of Copy Protection mentioned here is really CGMS.
Among other control information, there are two bits on video line 20, which define what kind of copy protection the content has. They could be set to Copy Always, Copy Once, Copy never or One Copy Already Made.

[FulciLives]

There must be a distinction made between Broadcast Flag and CGMS. There is no such thing as a Broadcast Flag transmitted over the air, cable or any other medium. As far as I know, it was never implemented. The kind of Copy Protection mentioned here is really CGMS.
Among other control information, there are two bits on video line 20, which define what kind of copy protection the content has. They could be set to Copy Always, Copy Once, Copy never or One Copy Already Made.

So you are saying that what everyone has been calling the "broadcast flag" is really just a form of CGMS then?

In that case won't a Full Frame TBC remove it?

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[edDV]

CGMS
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CGMS-A

Broadcast Flag
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadcast_flag
http://www.eff.org/IP/broadcastflag/

[bobkart]

They could be set to Copy Always, Copy Once, Copy never or One Copy Already Made.

Not wanting to nitpick, and I realize that you didn't write the standard, but wouldn't "Copy Never" suffice for the "One Copy Already Made" situation, implying that no further copies may be made? I.e. what does "One Copy Already Made" tell you about whether compliant hardware/software is allowed to make a(nother) copy?

EDIT: Ah, just read the Wikipedia entry linked to above by edDV, sure enough, the CopyNoMore value was added later, and thus I take it to be redundant with CopyNever. I guess they just had to do something with that fourth possible value.

[Logicdesign]

There must be a distinction made between Broadcast Flag and CGMS. There is no such thing as a Broadcast Flag transmitted over the air, cable or any other medium. As far as I know, it was never implemented. The kind of Copy Protection mentioned here is really CGMS.
Among other control information, there are two bits on video line 20, which define what kind of copy protection the content has. They could be set to Copy Always, Copy Once, Copy never or One Copy Already Made.

So you are saying that what everyone has been calling the "broadcast flag" is really just a form of CGMS then?

In that case won't a Full Frame TBC remove it?

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

TBC's should removed it. There is an important difference between removing it and modifying it. Althoug, I am not sure what is the highest line number that TBC's control. Maybe they don't get to line 20. Maybe the higher end units allow you to specify how many lines to control.

[Logicdesign]

They could be set to Copy Always, Copy Once, Copy never or One Copy Already Made.

Not wanting to nitpick, and I realize that you didn't write the standard, but wouldn't "Copy Never" suffice for the "One Copy Already Made" situation, implying that no further copies may be made? I.e. what does "One Copy Already Made" tell you about whether compliant hardware/software is allowed to make a(nother) copy?

EDIT: Ah, just read the Wikipedia entry linked to above by edDV, sure enough, the CopyNoMore value was added later, and thus I take it to be redundant with CopyNever. I guess they just had to do something with that fourth possible value.

The "One Copy Already Made" state, would imdicate to the consumer that the material was allowed to be copied at one point but you can't make a copy of the copy. I still have not seen that state used. Also, DVD recorders could modify line 20 themselves. If, for example, you are copying a "Copy Once" movie, the recorder could output the state in question as it is recording.

[Jumbo_Holden]

Does anyone actually own a Grex anywhere do they actually work?

[JamesNG]

I own a Grex and it works nicely.

It took about 3 weeks to arrive (from Israel). It works as advertised with my Ilo HD04 and Comcast Digital Cable.

Here's how mine is installed. I have the audio/video feeds going from the Motorola cable box to my Ilo. The GREX is in the middle of that video feed.

The only "problem" if you will is that it won't work if the RF cable/antenna cable is connected. And, of course, the channels you'll want to copy are (at least for me) numbered higher than 125. This means that you can't change channels via the DVR (or use VCR+ codes). So, in order to record, you have to make sure the Cable box is on the right channel the entire time so that it is feeding the right stream to the DVR. I can do timer recordings but only if I select the channel using the cable box and make sure that the channel doesn't change. Hope this is clear. So, this problem does reduce the flexibility substantially since you can't "stack" recordings from different channels - unless you manually change the channel on the cable box in between things.

What I've done (kinda) to compensate is split the cable feed before it goes to the cable box. I then have one feed go in to the box and one go directly to ANT-1 in the TV. I then have a feed go from the box to ANT-2 in the TV. And, I have the composite audio video go from the box to the DVR. So, if I'm recording something on the DVR, I can at least watch other nonpremium channels (1-99) by setting the TV to ANT-1 and using the TV remote.

[sveton]

I got the shippment Friday (Intact!, Hooray) Hooked it up & put it to
use. The following is my Review:

"The Grex Advanced Video Stablizer is one of those rare products that
lives up to claims made by it's makers. Before I purchased one, I
could not use my DVD recorder to record anything on TV. Due to all the
Digital Flags the networks attach to their programing, it was all but
useless. But, once I hooked up the Grex, all my recording problems
were solved. The quality of the recording are excellent, with no
distortion what so ever. I would recomend the Grex to anyone with the
same problem with no hesitation. Thanks, Grex! "

[ella]

Does anyone actually own a Grex anywhere do they actually work?

Works fine.
In fact this is the only product left in the market that can support all in one DVD,VHS,CableBoxes. All the rest was morel likely sued by Macrovision.
I had for instance Video Clarifyer (it brokes) before Grex. Video clarifyer does not exist any more. But I'm much satisfied with Grex anyway.