Confusion with captured file size and capabilities

[vasilemj]

OK, so I have captured an old home movie onto my laptop using an external USB 2.0 capture device. Using the Pinacle Studio 9.4 QuickStart software that came with the capture device, I captured 2 hours 3 minutes in the MPEG2 format at 720x480. This resulted in a file size of about 6.3GB. Using VirtuaDub I have determined that the video portion of the file is 1363Kbps while the audio is 48KHz 224Kbps layer II.

Alright, so I'm thinking huh, 6.3 GB....that must mean that I'll have to burn the file to a dual (or double) layer DVD. No problem. I can do that.

Then I begin to use the "editing" functionality in Pinacle Studio 9.4 QuickStart though I'm not actually doing any real "editing". All I've done is import the video and dragged it down to the timeline at the bottom of the screen. Now when I move to the "Make Movie" tab of the software this is where things get confusing.

First of all, it looks like the lowest bit rate that I can encode the video is to choose "custom" and select 3000 Kbits/sec. This is where my first question comes in. This should be fine right because the original captured video was captured at 1363Kpbs as described above? This shouldn't cause any decrease in the video quality of the final output correct?

OK, so selecting "custom" and setting the bitrate to 3000Kbits/sec and setting the audio compression to MPEG-1 layer 2 (no change from the original encoding) allows me (according to the QuickStart software) to get 179 minutes (nearly 3 hours) of video on a single, regular, 4.7GB DVD. This is where I get confused.

How can I capture 2 hours of video at 1363Kbps where the captured file size come to 6.3GB and expect to fit it on a dual-layer DVD but then enter the same captured video into QuickStart, actually increase the video bit rate of the output to 3000kbits/sec and be able to fit nearly 3 hours of video on a regular DVD?

How does 2 hour at 1363Kbps = 3 hours 3000kbit/sec?

I'm so confused. If anyone understands what I just asked, please provide some insight.

Thanks,
Mark V.

[dlflannery]

OK, so I have captured an old home movie onto my laptop using an external USB 2.0 capture device. Using the Pinacle Studio 9.4 QuickStart software that came with the capture device, I captured 2 hours 3 minutes in the MPEG2 format at 720x480. This resulted in a file size of about 6.3GB. Using VirtuaDub I have determined that the video portion of the file is 1363Kbps while the audio is 48KHz 224Kbps layer II.

Alright, so I'm thinking huh, 6.3 GB....that must mean that I'll have to burn the file to a dual (or double) layer DVD. No problem. I can do that.

Then I begin to use the "editing" functionality in Pinacle Studio 9.4 QuickStart though I'm not actually doing any real "editing". All I've done is import the video and dragged it down to the timeline at the bottom of the screen. Now when I move to the "Make Movie" tab of the software this is where things get confusing.

First of all, it looks like the lowest bit rate that I can encode the video is to choose "custom" and select 3000 Kbits/sec. This is where my first question comes in. This should be fine right because the original captured video was captured at 1363Kpbs as described above? This shouldn't cause any decrease in the video quality of the final output correct?

OK, so selecting "custom" and setting the bitrate to 3000Kbits/sec and setting the audio compression to MPEG-1 layer 2 (no change from the original encoding) allows me (according to the QuickStart software) to get 179 minutes (nearly 3 hours) of video on a single, regular, 4.7GB DVD. This is where I get confused.

How can I capture 2 hours of video at 1363Kbps where the captured file size come to 6.3GB and expect to fit it on a dual-layer DVD but then enter the same captured video into QuickStart, actually increase the video bit rate of the output to 3000kbits/sec and be able to fit nearly 3 hours of video on a regular DVD?

How does 2 hour at 1363Kbps = 3 hours 3000kbit/sec?

I'm so confused. If anyone understands what I just asked, please provide some insight.

Thanks,
Mark V.

The 1363 Kbps number has to be incorrect. 6.3 GB for two hours is more like 7000 Kbps, which makes a lot more sense for 720x480 MPEG2 than the lower number, which is too low for good video quality. Isn't there a setting in Pinnacle for the bit rate of the capture? What was it? How did you determine the 1363 number? Sounds more like an MEG1 rate.
Even 3000 Kbps is on the low side for this format as far as quality is concerned.
Also have you checked the Pinnacle web site for a (free) update of your software? I got Ver. 10 on a CD with my Dazzle Platinum and there was immediately an update to 10.6 available.

[vasilemj]

The 1363 Kbps number has to be incorrect. 6.3 GB for two hours is more like 7000 Kbps, which makes a lot more sense for 720x480 MPEG2 than the lower number, which is too low for good video quality. Isn't there a setting in Pinnacle for the bit rate of the capture? What was it? How did you determine the 1363 number? Sounds more like an MEG1 rate.
Even 3000 Kbps is on the low side for this format as far as quality is concerned.
Also have you checked the Pinnacle web site for a (free) update of your software? I got Ver. 10 on a CD with my Dazzle Platinum and there was immediately an update to 10.6 available.

You are absolutely correct. The 1363 number came from the "file information" option in VirtualDub which was obviously wrong. Once I brought my video file into VideoReDo (which I probably should have done in the first place) I determined that the bitrate was 8Mbps. That seems more logical. However, after doing a quick test edit in VideoReDo just to see if the bitrate was actually 8Mbps, the pop-up box that appears after the editing in complete indicated that the file was actually 5.99Mbps. VirtualDub confirmed this when I imported my edited file into their software and used the "file information" option.

I used the Dazzle DVC 9.0 to capture my video. The software that came with it was Pinnacle QuickStart 9.0 I believe and I was able to upgrade free to 9.4. Don't think I can upgrade to the 10 version but I'll check that out.

Thanks for your help dlflannery. I really appreciate your thoughts.

Mark V.

[dlflannery]

Glad to see you have VideoReDo. Probably the best $50 I ever spent on video software!

[vasilemj]

Isn't there a setting in Pinnacle for the bit rate of the capture? What was it?

dlflannery-

You were right again. When I went into the "capture" functionality of QuickStart I was able to select a "preset quality" of "High Quality (DVD)". This apparently captures video at 720x480 at 6000 kbits/sec. Selecting "custom" will allow me to alter the resolution and bitrate of the captured video.

So, that answers my question. Even the initial interpretation by VideoReDo of 8Mbps is inaccurate. Only after I do some editing to the video in their software will it show me the actual bitrate.

FYI, I checked and I cannot upgrade to version 10 of the QuickStart software. I'm stuck using 9.4 but it should be fine for my uses.

Thanks again for pointing me in the right direction.

Mark V.

[dlflannery]

Mpeg file headers, at least ones used in DVD authoring, sometimes have bit rates that have no connection with reality, usually in the 9 or 10 Mbps range, which is the DVD limit. I load TiVo files (MPEG2 with a TiVo header) that I know are about 2.7 Mbps but VideoReDo will say they are 9 Mbps with Ctrl-L. As you know it reports the actual bit rate after saving a file.

[grannyGeek]

Hi Mark
Since you have identified your device as the DVC-90, I am going to stick my long nose in here, and suggest that you capture to DV-AVI instead of Mpeg.

I am a Studio 9.35 and DVC-90 user, and I sometimes Studio has a bad habit of re-encoding mpeg whether it needs to or not.
That's why so many users on the Studio 9 forum recommend capturing to high bitrate DV-Avi, You can even render interim edited segments to avi and add them back to your project without quality loss. I stopped capturing to MPEG after my second project.

I captured to DV-avi at the highest supported bitrate (8000? been a while, can't remember).
When ready to render the project to dvd, use a bitrate calculator to determine bitrate to allow the project to fit on custom-size 4380 mb disk (rather than full disk, I want that 100 mb cushion)
Once again, Studio has a tendency to be too conservative about bitrate and wastes disk space.

Go to Make Disk, Do Not Burn, and tell Studio I'm using 8.5 gb dual-layer even though I'm not-- That keeps it from saying the project is too large to fit on disk.
Type in the calculated bitrate for Custom bitrate setting, and save the files to hard-drive.
When done, use DvdShrink or ImgBurn to build the folder into an ISO image, and burn using ImgBurn.

If you have the disk space for avi, in my opinion, it's the best way to go.

Just a suggestion.....

[vasilemj]

grannyGeek-

Thanks for the info. I'll try that with my next video capture. But if I capture to DV-avi won't the final video have to be converted to MPEG2 anyways? Isn't that what a VOB file is....just a slightly different version of the MPEG2 file?

I do understand that Studio always seems to re-render the video file, even MPEG2 files, but what am I really gaining if they both have to be re-encoded?

Thanks for clarifying.

Mark V.

[grannyGeek]

Hi Mark -
well, the way it was first explained to me is that when you re-encode from mpeg to mpeg, you are more liable to get compression artifacts and pixilization, than when you re-encode from high bitrate avi to mpeg.
I have taken his word for it, he's been doing this stuff for years.

Plus, avi is much more flexible for editing, because you can edit sections, render them to avi with little or no quality loss, and splice them back into your project.

Also, take a look at this thread,
the fourth post --- guns1inger gives a concise comparison of formats.

Hope this is helpful

[dlflannery]

Hi Mark -
well, the way it was first explained to me is that when you re-encode from mpeg to mpeg, you are more liable to get compression artifacts and pixilization, than when you re-encode from high bitrate avi to mpeg.
I have taken his word for it, he's been doing this stuff for years.

Plus, avi is much more flexible for editing, because you can edit sections, render them to avi with little or no quality loss, and splice them back into your project.

Also, take a look at this thread,
the fourth post --- guns1inger gives a concise comparison of formats.

Hope this is helpful

I agree with all this, including the post by gunslinger that was linked. However if all you want to do is "simple" editing (i.e., cut and splice) and you can capture to a DVD-compliant MPEG2 format, then the issue about AVI being easier/faster to edit does not apply, and you can save yourself a lot of disk space.

The key to doing this is VideoReDo. It is very fast because it only re-encodes the few frames near where you cut or splice (called "joining"). Thus 99+% of your content is as originally encoded and you don't suffer the additional degradation of another (always lossy) encoding. For splicing (joining) the following rules apply (copied from a post on the VideoReDo forum by one of the program's authors):

Joiner Restrictions: There are a few restrictions on nature of the files that can be joined. You will be warned if you attempt to join files that don't meet these criteria.

1. Files must be of the same type. You can only join MPEG-2 files with other MPEG-2 files and MPEG-1 files with other MPEG-1 files.
2. Audio sample rates must be identical. You cannot join files that have different audio characteristics. The audio bit rates may be different between files.
3. Video picture size must be the same. MPEG files can be encoded with a variety of picture sizes (i.e. 720x480, 480x480, 640x480, ... ). The joiner will insure that only files of the same size can be joined. The video bit rates may be different between files.

If your editing can live within these restrictions you can save yourself a lot of time and disk space. I know you (Vasilemj) already have VideoReDo but for the benefit of other readers it can be tried free and uncrippled for 15 days and then it costs $50. Also it will save mpeg2 in VOB format which contains empty NAV packets that are either required or must be added later by DVD authoring programs. It will also save elementary streams (separate video and audio files) and has a nifty (and fast) Ad Detective feature that can be trained and adjusted to specific content characteristics.

Even if you have to re-encode captured MPEG2 to a different format for DVD compliance, it's not the end of the world. There are many programs that do this (search tools on this site) but I can vouch for one that is lean, efficient, free and easy to use: gui4ffmpeg. Although it is absolutely true that re-encoding can only lose information, the result can be quite acceptable. However it is time consuming, so it's best to make your original capture to a DVD compliant format so re-encoding isn't needed.

[vasilemj]

Thanks for all the suggestions guys. While I'd like to play with capturing in the DV-AVI format, I may be limited based on the size of my hard drive. I primarily use my new laptop to do the capturing as it is faster and won't drop frames while capturing and then I move it to my older desktop to do the editing. However, with the partitions that I've setup on my laptop I only have about 20GB on each of my D and E drives respectively so I'm not going to get much more than about 1.5 hours using DV-AVI on each drive. However, if I have something that is about an hour it's definitely worth a try. Right now all I'm doing is fairly simple editing so I think I'll stick with the MPEG2 format for the time being even though it's frustrating slow when it renders on the desktop.

Hey by the way, anyone ever try Adobe Premiere Elements? I'm thinking of picking it up locally here at Fry's.

Thanks again for all the input!

Mark V.

[noisy_lazy_crazy2]

So are those of you with Dazzle Platinums happy with them? I'm thinking of getting one & realize the pitfalls (IE, after all VHS is converted to DVD, I'm stuck with the Dazzle & perhaps the $90 would be better applied to a stand alone DVD recorder) but there are positives, too. (IE, my current DVD recorder is getting flaky & spending the $90 might prolong it enough so I don't have to buy a new one for a while.)

BTW, I'm a long time user of VideoRedo & agree that it's a great program.

DLFlannery...since you're a Dazzle Platinum owner with Tivo, are you aware of any hacks that allow you to integrate the Dazzle Platinum with a standard Tivo box? IE, currently, I either use the Tivo option to Transfer to VHS & record to a stand alone DVD recorder OR I transfer the Tivo files (via wireless home network) to my desktop & burn from there. So I guess what I'm wondering is if anyone has hooked up a Dazzle to their computer and attached a network adapter to the Dazzle so you can transfer directly from Tivo box to DVD burner on computer via wireless home network/Dazzle. (Hope that makes sense.)