Dual Core vs Dual Processor

[kissvid]

HI all,

I have been in this video game for a while and within the next 3-6 months will hopefully be going full time and quitting my job. I am in the process of upgrading my system and I have to admit I am lost in deciding between dual core or Dual processor. I decided to build my own system. I just don't know which type is better for us in the video and dvd authoring game. I am looking faster mpg conversion times mainly and faster rendering times. I will probably be running 2gb of ram. Although I have not decided on a mother board yet. If anyone has any suggestions or guidance with any part of building a system I would really appreciate the help. Mothboards, video cards, processors, ram etc... Thank you everyone.

Marc

[ViRaL1]

You'll most likely get better encoding times out of a dual processor system, especially if the apps you're using are multithreaded. On the other hand the cost is also higher. You may pay close to twice as much for the board, and dual processor capable chips (Xeon / Opteron) are going to be more expensive as well.

[RLT69]

ViRaL1 is right. dual processor capable boards are more expensive than a single processor, dual core capable boards. not too mention with the dual processor boards you will need the opteron chips.

so based on price - it would be cheaper to get a dual core chip with a single CPU socket board.

now, if you can wait, AMD is going to release a dual CPU socket configuration that can each run dual core processors! not sure on the cost there but this is the new direction for AMD. meaning there should be alot of MB venders producing this configuration. so it might not be as costly as previous dual socket boards.

good luck

[kissvid]

Thank you for the assistance. Dual core looks like the way I would go. But the new AMD thing sounds good. I am so confused!?!?. I don't even know about the hyperthreading programs which means I have some stuff still to learn....I will be using the following so far...

Adobe Premiere Pro 2.0
Adobe Encore 2.0
Adobe Audtion 2.0

Newest and latest CCE version for encoding or I might use Main Concept that comes with Adobe Pro. I still have to do my research on that 1. I ahve been Partial to CCE for quite sometime now. I have heard that a video card is really not all that important when it comes to editing. I know I need 2 gb of ram and probably 3 hd's. 1 os drive, 1 for storing video and the other for my processed material. If anyone else has done this I would love to hear what you have to say.

Marc

[handyguy]

You also need software that supports them.

Generally they are similar to having 2 computers. Not having one that is twice as fast.

[jagabo]

The difference in performance between dual CPU and dual core with similar architectures and similar clock speeds is minimal. In the range of a few percent one way or the other:

http://www.frameworkx.com/frameworkx/contentblogdetail.aspx?blog=56&id=66

CCE (and most other MPEG2 encoders) is well multithreaded and will take advantage of dual core or dual processor (and to a lesser extent hyperthreading). It won't encode twice as fast but around 1.7 or 1.8 times.

The upcoming AMD 4x4 systems will allow you to use two dual core processors (ie, four cores total). Of course, you can do this with Intel Xeon processors now and Intel will be releasing quad core processors in November.

From what I've seen, most video encoders are not well enough multithreaded to use four cores to their full potential:

http://www.tomshardware.com/2006/09/10/four_cores_on_the_rampage/page10.html

Something else to consider: Windows XP Home supports one CPU regardless of number of cores. Windows XP Pro supports two CPUs regardless of number of cores.

[discguy001]

Something else to consider: Windows XP Home supports one CPU regardless of number of cores. Windows XP Pro supports two CPUs regardless of number of cores.

Windows XP home will support 2 physical CPU's, I have a dual processor P3/MSI board system with windows XP home and both processors are accounted for.

[jagabo]

Ah, licensing seems to have changed somewhere between the original XP release and SP2.

Original XP Home license:

http://download.microsoft.com/documents/useterms/Windows%20XP_Home_English_1f1fecd8-e4...7c35073352.pdf

The Product may not be used by more than one (1) processor at any one time on any single Workstation Computer.

SP2 license:

http://download.microsoft.com/documents/useterms/Windows%20XP%20SP2_Home_English_8e8f3...6b290209a8.pdf

The Software may not be used by more than two (2) processors at any one time on any single Workstation Computer.

[InXess]

and further... (same document)

Licensing on a per-processor rather than a per-core basis ensures that customers will not face additional software licensing requirements or incur additional licensing fees when they choose to adopt multicore processor technology.
...
Multicore processor systems licensed on a per-processor basis will also help make this new enterprise computing technology affordable to mid-size and small business customers.

Very nice. Simply put: "we're the good guys".

[jagabo]

inXess is talking about this document which I originally linked to:

http://www.microsoft.com/licensing/highlights/multicore.mspx

I wouldn't go so far as to call Microsoft "the good guys" though.

[Nelson37]

Before you spend huge bucks on top-of-the-line PC, consider going down two or three notches and getting TWO computers. True multi-tasking. Remember the cost and time of the human running the box.

[InXess]

inXess is talking about this document which I originally linked to:

http://www.microsoft.com/licensing/highlights/multicore.mspx

I wouldn't go so far as to call Microsoft "the good guys" though.

yes, in fact I was talking about the same document. I (unsuccessfully) tried to continue the chain of thought you started... I'll try harder next time.
btw. "good guys" is what they call themselves in the doc quoted (maybe a bit different word choice... same meaning though)

[edDV]

A major problem getting performance out of a Multi-Processor or Multi-Core processor is maintaining adequate data flow through the motherboard chipset and L2 cache. This article was good at explaining the problem and the direction Intel is taking.
http://www.tomshardware.com/2006/07/10/project_keifer_32_core/

[ahhaa]

If its a business and you are intending to sell time-urgent services, you will want an identically softwared backup machine.

If you are going to use Adobe so heavily, check their 'optimum' system requirements. No harm in Q-ing their tech department for setups that are true workhorses; they've no doubt already encountered whatever problems arise with high-end architectures. Ask some of their users on the forum too, some may have just done what you are considering.

Don't spend too much on parts that rapidly obsolesce... like CPUs. You need good speakers, monitors, UPSs, good chairs, etc.
In 2 years or less video computers may be very different. Hi-def is coming from one way, Vista from another (Vista requires a serious video card.) CPUs, mobos, RAM & even HDs are all in flux, and how it will settle out is not yet clear.

Consider your work flow too. Do you want to sit there watching paint dry as you make multiple copies? Or is your output going to be an upload to You Tube? Will you need to playback for clients in your studio while continuing work on another project?

Are you going on location? Do you have a good mic? tripod? Will you record 'wild sound' on a laptop? etc etc this stuff lasts a lot longer than you'll be happy with the CPU...

Buy two identical DVD drives, they are the part most prone to failure these days. Seagate HDs have a 5 yr warranty, some others don't. Get a top-rated power supply, even if one comes with the case. Those round gamers EIDE cables help air circulation, another consideration. Fans equal noise.

You can also spec out a machine with say, Gateway; they'll love you aren't a bottomfeeder and may give valuable insights.

Bottom line- make a budget for everything, and have a cushion for unexpected deals or problem gear. If you eventually go with Vista, how much will Adobe want to charge you for their upgrades? You have to earn all that back before showing a profit, & while paying the bills.

All that said- we know you will!:]

[rallynavvie]

Why aren't we suggesting both? Intel already has dual-core Xeons and I believe AMD has X2 Opterons. I was planning on upgrading to a dual-dual machine this winter but since I got out of the video biz I no longer need to upgrade.

Wait another few months and you can get dual-quad systems from both manufacturers, but at a horrendous price I'm sure. However the roadmaps I've seen price the quad-core Xeons at the same mark as the high-clocked Prestonias before the EM64T architecture came out for that platform. In other words about what I paid for my DH800 rig when I built it.

I agree with having a second computer handy, I have several dual-processor machines at my disposal and have to admit that each one I add makes my arsenal that much more efficient. I used my DN800 for encoding, the DH800 for the editing and mastering, and the 2460 for whatever else I needed.

[Super Warrior]

Meh all this "Dual" stuff is overrated.

Good ol' single CPU/processor, gets the job done perfectly fine.

[kissvid]

I do beg to differ for the old single processor. This is going to be a full time business with established clients that I have had for 5 years already. When I have new clients come one board and work increases, time will be very important. A dual core machine will decrease my time in all aspects. Especially the MPEG2 conversion. Time is money. No way will a single match the time needed in my opinon. I have decided to go with a duo core system and actaully build one from scratch. I need top notch parts and iwll spend about 5000.00. But this is what I need to do. I can't cheap out on it. It will be the heart and soul of what I do so i can't take that risk. I found this configuration done on this website. Anyone have an opinion. There are 3 listed.

http://www.videoguys.com/DIY5.html

Thanks everyone.
Marc

[Scorpion King]

Before you spend huge bucks on top-of-the-line PC, consider going down two or three notches and getting TWO computers. True multi-tasking. Remember the cost and time of the human running the box.

I think I agree with the 2 computers idea. Regardless how fast a system is it is still busy encoding (etc) and the human must just stand by, where 2 complete systems gives the option to edit, surf, etc, on one while crunching/capturing video on the other. Add a simple network cable and.......

Good luck.

[Capmaster]

Dual-socket boards require CPU cycles for "housekeeping" that dual-core CPUs don't require. Putting two processors on a board ends up with performance that is the square root of 2 (1.4x) compared to a single socket. Dual cores beat that number.

You also have more heat, higher parts count, lower reliability, etc.

Before I built my Core 2 Extreme Quad QX6700 system, I considered buying a dual-socket Tyan WS board and putting in two dual-core Xeons. It would have saved me a few hundred dollars. But the performance numbers said I'd be better off with the quad - probably because of the faster memory available with the Core 2 motherboards (DDR2-800 versus DDR2-667 or 533)

[rhegedus]

Let's also not forget that if you're going to be working with uncompressed or lossless video, the limiting factor may well be hard drives.

I've been running in a AMD X2 3500 and task manager reports only 70-80% CPU usage when working with DV but I can get the CPU to max out when encoding to mpeg and more compressed video.

[INFRATOM]

if you don't know what you really need in terms of system take one of the cutting edge examples from Toms hardware for example and make that, if you work with special software like Avid cinema that you need special hardware you have to go with specs of the software.

[Capmaster]

Let's also not forget that if you're going to be working with uncompressed or lossless video, the limiting factor may well be hard drives.

I've been running in a AMD X2 3500 and task manager reports only 70-80% CPU usage when working with DV but I can get the CPU to max out when encoding to mpeg and more compressed video.

Good point, Rob. The hard disk will frequently be the major bottleneck in a system.

Get the fastest hard drive you can afford, like a SATA2 3GB/S with a large (16MB+) cache. That's always good advice

[ozymango]

A dual core machine will decrease my time in all aspects. Especially the MPEG2 conversion. Time is money. No way will a single match the time needed in my opinon. I have decided to go with a duo core system and actaully build one from scratch. I need top notch parts and iwll spend about 5000.00. But this is what I need to do. I can't cheap out on it. It will be the heart and soul of what I do so i can't take that risk.

Get two or more actual computers. Seriously. And a bunch of hard drives and DVDs for backups. I do this stuff too, not full-time pro but lots of "serious amateur" stuff (birthdays, weddings, etc.) and you WILL NEED more than one PC for this. You need one for doing the rendering and one for everything else, at least.

And you need to backup, backup, BACKUP!!! I'll bet you find out very quickly that your major bottleneck will be disk space, and backing up the data; DV videotape works nicely for archiving stuff, too.

If you've got money for all the top-end stuff, that's cool, but really you don't need to spend that money on a single machine doing it all, you'll get a lot more bang from your buck (and more use) out of multiple separate computers doing multiple separate things. 3 P4 single-processor CPUs and a KVM, on a network, will let you be editing, burning, and rendering at the same time!

[edDV]

...

If you've got money for all the top-end stuff, that's cool, but really you don't need to spend that money on a single machine doing it all, you'll get a lot more bang from your buck (and more use) out of multiple separate computers doing multiple separate things. 3 P4 single-processor CPUs and a KVM, on a network, will let you be editing, burning, and rendering at the same time!

I agree with multiple machines (3 + laptop here) but I'm also sold on multi-core to get multiple tasks going on each machine. I'm finding that support of networking between machines (e.g. gigabit ethernet) or supporting USB devices, often becomes the second task.

[ozymango]

I agree with multiple machines (3 + laptop here) but I'm also sold on multi-core to get multiple tasks going on each machine. I'm finding that support of networking between machines (e.g. gigabit ethernet) or supporting USB devices, often becomes the second task.

Oh, yeah, if you've got the bucks to get multiple machines with multiple processors, I'll second that! I just meant that if money is the limiting factor here, I'd go for multiple computers with one CPU versus only one PC with multithreading -- just because, in my experience, you're only gonna be able to do one thing (edit, render, or burn) on any single PC at a time, even if it's faster. In my experience, anyway; this is assuming you haven't got some disgustingly hi-end AVID workstation or the like.

[edDV]

Avid workstations are single task basically

We agree that video editing, encoding and media DVR recording/display are best done on separate machines vs. one trying to do it all at once.

[JimmyJoeBob]

...

If you've got money for all the top-end stuff, that's cool, but really you don't need to spend that money on a single machine doing it all, you'll get a lot more bang from your buck (and more use) out of multiple separate computers doing multiple separate things. 3 P4 single-processor CPUs and a KVM, on a network, will let you be editing, burning, and rendering at the same time!

I agree with multiple machines (3 + laptop here) but I'm also sold on multi-core to get multiple tasks going on each machine. I'm finding that support of networking between machines (e.g. gigabit ethernet) or supporting USB devices, often becomes the second task.

Same here. 3 units on a KVM and networked to move files. Each with P4 3G and 2G of PC3200, 2 internal SATA 250G drives. I think it does the jobs much quicker with more versatility.
Also several USB drives for backups, music, mp3's, etc.

[edDV]

My typical task assignments

#1 internet and or Video Editing/DVD Authoring

#2 media DVR (multiple record devices and playback to HDTV), +backgound encoding

#3 MPeg2 encoding, MS Office, Accounting

Machine #2 was the first to get Core2Duo

[rallynavvie]

Before I built my Core 2 Extreme Quad QX6700 system, I considered buying a dual-socket Tyan WS board and putting in two dual-core Xeons. It would have saved me a few hundred dollars. But the performance numbers said I'd be better off with the quad - probably because of the faster memory available with the Core 2 motherboards (DDR2-800 versus DDR2-667 or 533)

Except that you'll be able to get even more performance from a dual-socket quad-core system later next near. We would just need to find an encoder that can access more than 4 logical processors.

The differences I'm still seeing between the mainstream dual-cores and the dual socket workstation boards is the chipset and supporting hardware. I'm very impressed by how well the new chip architecture runs with such low voltages, low heat, and most surprisingly low cost. Despite the overhead needed for the old SMP architecture the new dual cores also have limitations with the shared cache on die for the "cores".

Also the cost difference between the systems is narrowing. Consider the 6700 which retails for over $1000 is the same as two Conroe Xeons at $500 each. I recall once upon a time when the best Pentium EE chip cost about 50% more than a single high-end Xeon, thus the cost of two Xeons would cost 33% more than the EE. I do like how everything is kind of tied together and the price of Xeons is silly cheap compared to 3 years ago. I think the prosumers are the winners here, those that are putting their own machines together regardless of the system.

The real bonus is that there is heavy pressure on the gaming industry to take advantage of all this and make more apps multi-threaded. This may breathe some new life into my aging SMP hardware. If not for the change in video hardware I'd bet my old Tyan Tiger would be good for some recent games

[Super Warrior]

Yeesh i don't get this "Dual-core" and "dual-cpu" thing either.

Whatever happened to just having *1* Solid working CPU in a system, like a Pentium 4 or Celeron-M. Thats all ya need darnit.

You kids and your newfangled tech...*shakes cane*