SVCDs...

[e-z-e]

Are SVCDs really all that different from VCDs? Im not saying I think they are great, and Im not saying I think they are the same but Im hoping someone else can say. Please tell me some noticeable differences between the two. I usually convert from Divx if that makes any difference. Thanking you in advance,
e-z-e

[Cdub||]

ever here the old saying garbage in garbage out If your converting from divx Dont bother encoding it to svcd the quality wont get any better than just converting it to vcd

[Vejita-sama]

Like Cdub said, w/ a DivX source quaility won't be that great. At the same bitrate and resolution MPEG1 looks the same as MPEG2. However, the VCD standard calls for: MPEG1 encoding, 352x240 video=1150kbit/s & audio=224kbits. While SVCD calls for: MPEG2 encoding, 480x480 video=2520kbit/s & audio=224kbit/s.

Higher bitrates and resolution result in better quaility encodes. But if you were to make a xVCD at the same resolution and bitrate, the video quaility would be the same.

The reason MPEG2 is 'superior' to MPEG1 is because it has more supported features: selectable subtitles, multiple angles, multiple audio tracks, interlaced source, etc. However, you can encode MPEG1 much faster than MPEG2, so given the choice most people prefer to make xVCDs instead of SVCDs (also xVCDs are more supported, any PC will play them and most DVD players).

[vitualis]

The video quality from a "well-made" SVCD stands heads and shoulders about that of a "well-made" VCD -- even on older TV sets.

Regards.

[e-z-e]

So you are saying that an SVCD encode isnt really worth it? On my computer, when I do a high quality encode on VCD it takes only one hour less than a high quality encode on an SVCD. Is that one hour more worth it? Thanks for the feedback,
e-z-e

[Anonymous65]

You also need to take into account that you can only save half the amount of video in SVCD on a disk compared to VCD. A 80 minute CD-R can store 80 minutes of audio and video in VCD mode, while only 40 minutes in full SVCD mode. If you want to save 1 hour episodes, it will be a pain to put them on two disks. (yes, you can lower the bit rate and get one hour of SVCD on one disk, but with more blocks in the video)
You can also try non-standard SVCD at 352x480 @ 1650Kb/sec and 128Kb/sec audio for 1 hour per 80 min disk.

[mrbass]

skittelsen
that's not true at all. With 4 pass vbr you can get 1600 avg bitrate and 192 audio around 55 mins or so on one SVCD. Looks just like a DVD.

[Kdiddy]

"With 4 pass vbr you can get 1600 avg bitrate and 192 audio around 55 mins or so on one SVCD. Looks just like a DVD."

careful careful careful.....I know you are only stating your opinion, and mush as I love my SVCDs and think the quality is great, but terms of fidelity, 1.6 mbps avg bitrate SVCD does not compare to an 5 mbps avg bitrate DVD.

[Anonymous65]

Mr. mrbass,
I'm just curious, what you you mean by "not true at all"? Everything I wrote is perfectly true. Please point out my lies.

[e-z-e]

Easy fellas! Lets get back to the point please. Do you guys suggest I make an XVCD instead of SVCD from a Divx? Maybe that would look better thank a Divx SVCD.
e-z-e

[Vejita-sama]

Ok, here's a summary:

SVCD is better than VCD (why, because it uses a higher bitrate and resolution).

xSVCD and xVCD are NON-STANDARD, not better just non-standard. If I make a xVCD at 480x480 video=2520kbit/s & audio=224kbit/s it'll look/sound the the same as a SVCD. However, because it's MPEG1 I can encode it faster. To that end some people prefer to make xVCD.

If you only want to make VCDs or SVCD (ie. standard white book). SVCD is better. But GIGO, so for a DivX source I normall try to to increase the resolution if at all possible (decrease is ok):

eg. 640x480 divx -> 480x480 or 352x240 MPEG is ok
eg. 352x200 divx -> 480x480 MPEG is a BAD IDEA

So for most DivX sources I use 352x240, 352x480 or 480x480 (whatever is closest to source resolution) MPEG1. For DVD rips, 480x480 3pass VBR min=300, max=2520, ave=1500~2200, audio=128.

[e-z-e]

Allright. So I should go ahead and make my next DVD rip into a XVCD with 720x480 and the bitrate somewhere around 2500-3000 with all of your other settings? The Divx I'm encoding from generally run around 720x480.
e-z-e

[kinneera]

Make sure your standalone DVD player can handle a bitrate above 2500Kbps (~2800 combined with audio) before exceeding that bitrate. I would also advise 352x480 or 480x480 rather than 720x480, unless your movie is very short or very low motion, and thats only if you ripped it yourself (ie. have access to the VOBs). Encoding a Divx rip at 720x480, even if it was at that resolution is going to produce so many blocks you'll think you're watching a multicolored brick wall.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: kinneera on 2002-01-14 17:48:53 ]</font>

[e-z-e]

nice analogy
i was always under the impression though that higher resolution meant better quality?

[kinneera]

Higher resolution is only better if you can sustain it with a higher bitrate. Increasing the resolution means that you now have a proportionally higher amount of information that needs to be represented. Thus, at exactly the same bitrate, 720x480 is going to have to apply 4 times as much compression to each block as it would at VCD 352x240. That is because you can tile 4 VCD size blocks inside of the 720x480 frame (roughly, 704x480 is the exact multiple). Thus, your compression jumps from ~17:1 to ~68:1. MPEG is not lossless, so that kind of change in compression is quite substantial (and well beyond its optimal range), so I'm sure you can conclude the result.

To further compound the situation, your source is Divx. This means its average bitrate is probably no more than 600Kbps, if even that. This simply goes back to the garbage in/garbage out analogy. Increasing that bitrate to 2500Kbps (for XVCD or SVCD) is never going to make it look any better, and the increase in resolution will most certainly make it look worse. This is why it is almost always preferable to convert Divx to VCD in a small frame (352x240). Not all hope is lost, though, as 352x240 will generally look quite decent on a TV.

[e-z-e]

so you suggest that I encode with 352x240 resolution when making from Divx. What bitrate do you suggest? The DVD Players Compatibility List says that my GE 1101p can handle 5000kbits on an XVCD. Where should my bitrate be if I'm trying to fit it on 2 cds.
Thanking you in advance,
e-z-e

[flaninacupboard]

i see gone are the days when people do anything themselves. USE THE GUIDES. USE THE -TOOLS- USE YOUR BRAAAAIIIIINNNNN.
[end of gumby impression]

[kinneera]

Use the bitrate calculator to determine the appropriate bitrate to fit it onto two CDs.

[Poplar]

All I can say is, try both and compare the results. I just ripped "The Sopranos: the First Season" boxset, most of them XVCD with TMegEnc, rest in SVCD with CCE 2.50SP, with bitrates just one episode per disc, usually between 45-50 minutes. The result: SVCD is the winner hands down, superior in every aspects: clearer, sharper, almost with no block noise. And CCE is also much, much faster than TMegEnc.
From now on, I will only use SVCD with CCE. How many discs one movie requires is not really an issue to me.

[vancouverite]

To kinneera:

I think you are not quite right. Quality of video depends on its resolution and bitrate. However a line of quality is not like a simple straight one (Q=Resolution * Bitrate).
I passed through a lot of experiments and thought out that Resolution is more important than Bitrate. At least that is so in case of video storage on CD-Rs. And even video of 720x480@1150 kbps looks better than standard VCD 352x240@1150 kbps. Using of D1 (352x480) standard makes sense on very specific movie (fast and/or a lot of movements of small parts).
VCD is good only for 100% compatibility.
That is my practice and IMHO. Sorry for not simple English.

[kinneera]

Sorry, but I am absolutely right from a technical standpoint. Quality, however, is a subjective measurement. And I am going to stand by my assessment (as do many experienced members of this site) that 720x480 is nearly always unsuitable at bitrates under 2500Kbps. At 1150Kbps, that resolution will give you nearly 100:1 compression, which is going to result in extremely poor video fidelity.

The higher resolution does tend to produce what can roughly be termed sharper video, but at those bitrates, it will generate a lot of blocks, especially with high motion, and even more pixelation. Color fidelity will be far worse, and line aliasing much more distracting.

BTW, 352x480 is half-D1, 704x480 is D1, 352x240 is SIF, and 720x480 is CCIR-601, just so there's no confusion on terminology.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: kinneera on 2002-01-15 23:31:21 ]</font>

[SatStorm]

@ Kineerra
That is very intresting:
... BTW, 352x480 is half-D1, 704x480 is D1, 352x240 is SIF, and 720x480 is CCIR-601, just so there's no confusion on terminology ...

720 X 480 is full NTSC. The correct name is CCIR - 601 ?
702 X 480 is the full broadcast NTSC. That is Dimencion one, of D1 (OK, I know that)
352 X 240 is NTSC VCD. The correct name is SIF ? From where is that name? I know that resolution as D4
352 X 480 is half Broadcast NTSC. The name is D2
There is also D3: 702 X 240 for NTSC. No-one use it, 'cause D2 is better with the same file size

Can you link me to some more infos about those things?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: SatStorm on 2002-01-16 02:32:37 ]</font>

[RedsunsFC]

I have the same problem: most of my movies/anime are in divx avi and I want to convert them to a format for my DVD standalone player. Like e-z-e said: which of the following format is the best for a high quality divx source (like 233MB for 23-24 min): VCD, XVCD or SVCD? I have alread read through this topic but it isn't really clear which format is the best for a divx source.
Sure I know that: "The video quality from a "well-made" SVCD stands heads and shoulders about that of a "well-made" VCD -- even on older TV sets." But that's only true if the source is DVD. Like some one said before: the average bitrate of a divx encode is most of the time under 1000kb/s (haven't seen one with a higher bitrate), which means it is without doubt lower than a VCD! So I thought: does it make any sense to convert from a divx source to a format with a higher bitrate (like SVCD or XVCD), when VCD (average bitrate: 1150kb/s) is already enough? I don't think the picture quality of SVCD is better than VCD WHEN THE SOURCE IS DIVX AVI. It can't be possible that the encoded format will be better than the source (please take that in mind)!

Another thing: "Like Cdub said, w/ a DivX source quaility won't be that great. At the same bitrate and resolution MPEG1 looks the same as MPEG2. However, the VCD standard calls for: MPEG1 encoding, 352x240 video=1150kbit/s & audio=224kbits. While SVCD calls for: MPEG2 encoding, 480x480 video=2520kbit/s & audio=224kbit/s."

He said at the same bitrate and resolution MPEG1 looks the same as MPEG2: So what???? The point is that VCD and SVCD uses different bitrates and especially a different solution!
So he didn't really answer e-z-e question: Which format is better when the source is divx avi. And that's the point in the whole thread: No one really answers this question!!!
It is no offense at all, but please answer this question once and for all:

Which format is the best for encoding if the source is divx avi (but high quality: does this really matter???): VCD, XVCD or SVCD (and please read my post again before answering this question, and please name only ONE (!!!) format.)?

[Kdiddy]

Well for me personally, I dont consider anything of DivX to be high quality, which I know goes against the "norm" of opinion. Therefore Ii wouldnt waste the time with either, but IF, if I had to choose, I would do VCD.

[e-z-e]

this is a well debated topic, but i could still go either way. i think the general consensus is go with vcd or xvcd. which is the better choice of the two? my player supports both so that isn't an issue.

[Vejita-sama]

Ok, let's try it again The higher the bitrate and resolution, the better the quaulity of your encoded MPEG. There are two standards: VCD and SVCD.

VCD: MPEG1 352x240 video=1150kbit/s & audio=224kbit/s
SVCD: MPEG2 480x480 video=2520kbit/s & audio=224kbit/s

At the same bitrate and resolution MPEG1 looks the same as MPEG2. So what makes SVCD better than VCD? SVCD uses a higher bitrate and resolution.

Now, I can also make a non-standard xVCD or xSVCD. NON-STANDARD! Not bettter, just non-standard. So you say you have a video source and want to make the best possible encode. Well I can't say do this, or do that. Because the quaility of the source makes a big difference.

The higher the resolution, the better the quality of the encode. But if you're source is at 320x200 and you enlarge it to 720x480, it'll look like crap. So as much as possible try to only decrease your resolution, or keep it close to the source resolution.

The higher the bitrate the better the quaility of the encode. But most DVD players have a max of ~2880kbit/s total (for both video and audio). This is pretty low, so if I encode at 720x480 I'm not going to have enough kbit/pixel to get a good encode.

For that reason (and to meet NTSC specs) most people encode at 352x240, 352x480 or 480x480. For DVD source 480x480 works well, for DivX source (unless the source resolution is really high) 352x240 works well.

Bitrate: personally I don't have a stero (TV speakers only) and lower the audio bitrate from 224kbit/s > 128kbit/s; this allows be to raise the video bitrate.

the higher the video bitrate the better, but again there's a max. Also as the video bitrate increases the size of the MPEG increases, and thus you can fit less movie per CDR.

How you balance these trade offs (resolution vs. bitrate vs. size of MPEG vs. runtime) is a matter of PERSONAL choice! Here are more choices:

DVD rip: xSVCD MPEG2 480x480, 3pass VBR in CCE min=300, max=2520, ave=1400~2200, audio=128kbit/s.

DivX: VCD

GIGO always applies. DivX files will always look better on your PC then on your DVD player as MPEGs (just learn to live with it).

SVCD is better than VCD. But xVCD and xSVCD (being non-standard) could be better or worst (depends on the settings you choose). SVCD calls for specs near DVD max so it's about as good as you can get. However, many people prefer to make xVCDs as MPEG1 encodes faster than MPEG2.

[Pytkin]

Do not forget !
Svcd can have 4 subtitles and 2 audio tracks .. Its great for movies ..

[kinneera]

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font size=-1>Quote:</font><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT SIZE=-1><BLOCKQUOTE>
720 X 480 is full NTSC. The correct name is CCIR - 601 ?
702 X 480 is the full broadcast NTSC. That is Dimencion one, of D1 (OK, I know that)
352 X 240 is NTSC VCD. The correct name is SIF ? From where is that name? I know that resolution as D4
352 X 480 is half Broadcast NTSC. The name is D2
There is also D3: 702 X 240 for NTSC. No-one use it, 'cause D2 is better with the same file size

Can you link me to some more infos about those things?
</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR size=1 color=black></TD></TR></TABLE>

SIF is short for "Standard Image Format". It defines that resolution, as well as some various other limitations on an MPEG1 stream's parameters. I believe D4 is also correct.

I believe you that 352x480 is D2, it is just commonly called half-D1 as well. Either nomenclature conveys the idea.

D3 - you taught me something with that one. I would have to agree though that its usefulness seems almost nil, since vertical resolution (in my experience) definitely confers much greater benefits than horizontal on a TV.

Wish I could give you links, but I've basically just picked up this terminology over time. An standards setting authority on video or broadcast (such as the MPEG group) would probably be able to provide more details.

[thxkid]

why all this talk even about divx, just spend $150-$200 on a good MPEG1/2 encoder and capture directly to MPEG2 or MPEG1 and save all the hassle of encoding from divx to MPEG.

[mrbass]

not trying to start a flame war. My point is a 1600 4 pass vbr with CCE looks better than an mpeg-1 xvcd with Tsunami at 1600 bitrate. http://www.licensing.philips.com/information/mpeg/documents353.html
It says "MPEG1 and MPEG2 do not specify absolute methods for encoding and decoding. This was done deliberately so that designers were free to research and develop better methods and implementations for the hardware and software, whilst all systems would remain compatible. MPEG only defines the syntax and structure of the encoded bitstream."

so it depends on the algorithms being used. IMHO the mpeg-2 enocders have better encoding algorithms.

As to this "1.6 mbps avg bitrate SVCD does not compare to an 5 mbps avg bitrate DVD. " --Kdiddy. Hmmm an 1600 - 1800 avg bitrate CCE 4 pass looks very similar to the DVD. I have it hooked to a 32" wega with component cables and can't tell the difference. Ok I can if I'm 5 inches from the TV but even then I can't complain of the quality.

In all these VCD vs. SVCD wars I've come to only one conclusion. VCD lovers choose vcdhelp.com and SVCD lovers choose doom9.org. Simple as that.