Lordsmurf or anyone with DVD recorder experience... plz help me decide

[MeekloBraca]

Does any Lite-on/ILO Recorder have it?

[jamiemark]

FR155 on earlier JVC models was 720x480. It was not until FR165 that they changed. Be sure to test your machines thoroughly.

Interesting they would change something like that (though I think it's for the better). On this particular model, the resolution changes at FR155. FR150 is still 720x480 resolution.

[SingSing]

true...I just checked in Best Buy's page, and the LG recorder is no longer in stock in their store in McAllen. Which other Dual Layer recorder do you recommend in case the LG isn't available?

i read that Bestbuy's store brand Insignia DVD recorder are OEM LG DVD recorder.

[grizbear]

The Panasonic is crap as a DL recorder, because you have to finalize one layer before using the next. Sort of ruins the point.

Incorrecto, Milord!

The Panny DL works this way [at least on my E55]:

After inserting DL disk

1. Records program to HDD as a Temporary Image". If DL recording is at different speed than originally recorded. Then records to both layers of DL disc and deletes "Temp Image" in one step. If you haven't already, you may now title and add a thumbnail to disc and finalize the whole disc, which takes less then 3 min.

2. If DL recording is at same speed as original HDD recording, records directly to DL disc at high speed and then waits for you to title and/or finalize.

By the way, the recordings are excellent.

Just the facts.

Glad to clear this bit of misinformation. Spreading wrong information plus "The Panasonic is crap" remark detracts from one's perception of someone being a so-called expert.

[lordsmurf]

The Panny 20 runs FR Mode and is LSI, BUT you cant pause during recording which is just god damn laziness on Panasonic's part in incorporating that feature.

I forgot about this model.
So next to JVC this is the only other LSI with FR/FLEX recording.
- John "FulciLives" Coleman

But remember, the Panasonic insists on using 720x480 @ 2500k bitrate at 4-hour mode, as well as Full D1 anywhere else along the line, rendering the machine basically worthless past SP mode.

So they blew FR there too. May as well not have it.

[next]

The Panasonic is crap as a DL recorder, because you have to finalize one layer before using the next. Sort of ruins the point.

Incorrecto, Milord!

The Panny DL works this way [at least on my E55]:

After inserting DL disk

1. Records program to HDD as a Temporary Image". If DL recording is at different speed than originally recorded. Then records to both layers of DL disc and deletes "Temp Image" in one step. If you haven't already, you may now title and add a thumbnail to disc and finalize the whole disc, which takes less then 3 min.

2. If DL recording is at same speed as original HDD recording, records directly to DL disc at high speed and then waits for you to title and/or finalize.

By the way, the recordings are excellent.

Just the facts.

Glad to clear this bit of misinformation. Spreading wrong information plus "The Panasonic is crap" remark detracts from one's perception of someone being a so-called expert.

LordSurf has a tendency to comment on things that he hasn't even been in the same room with let alone used. As a result you really have to be skeptical of his advice. He is very knowledgable in certain areas but appears foolish at times when he attempts to stretch into areas he knows nothing about. This very often makes him appear to be an idiot.

Don't let this stop you from taking his advice in areas where he is knowledgable.

[lordsmurf]

Stop trying to pick fights and be a troll Next/Nextoo.

I'm just passing along Panasonic DL information I've gotten from other Panasonic owners. It's actually been discussed many times in this very forum, so search for it if you want to read the complaint from others.

You also refer to hard drive recording, not recording directly to disc, totally separate concepts.

"Panasonic is crap" is a very valid and very brief summary. If you want the expanded technical reasoning, it's on the forum to be found, several times over, in fact. From IRE to luma to resolution to Half D1 quality to HDD longevity and more, it's all there, discussed at length.

As a brand-new, first-time poster, you would serve yourself well to search the forum for things discussed long before your arrival.

[yomer]

Well, good news and bad news. I went to Best Buy, and this guy Peter tells me to wait while he went to the back of the store to check for the reorder. He came back with nada, nothing. I was frustrated becuase I left the store empty handed. The good news is that they did give me the online price at the moment, so I ordered it and with any luck my grandmother or an uncle will pass through McAllen on their next trip to South Padre Island. My recorder arrives on the 27th, I will put pressure on someone to bring me my re corder back to Monterrey. I also couldn't find the Sima CT200, so I guess I will buy it some other time online. What matters is that I got a nice price and in one or two weeks I might be enjoying my new DVD recorder... and posting some comments.

[grizbear]

Stop trying to pick fights and be a troll Next/Nextoo.

I'm just passing along Panasonic DL information I've gotten from other Panasonic owners. It's actually been discussed many times in this very forum, so search for it if you want to read the complaint from others.

You also refer to hard drive recording, not recording directly to disc, totally separate concepts.

"Panasonic is crap" is a very valid and very brief summary. If you want the expanded technical reasoning, it's on the forum to be found, several times over, in fact. From IRE to luma to resolution to Half D1 quality to HDD longevity and more, it's all there, discussed at length.

And a lot of the opinion traces back to you. And a lot of people over at the AVS forum would disagree with you. In fact, statements have been made there, that your hostility to the Panny Line/Owners has driven them from this forum. That would be unproductive and unfair to the forum. So why bash?

As a brand-new, first-time poster, you would serve yourself well to search the forum for things discussed long before your arrival.

1. Been coming to this forum for a long time, just registered to correct your mis information.

2. It is an old trick to put down the newby; If you can't acknowledge the facts I stated, imply the messenger is inexperienced. Not so, milord, I have a goodly amount of DVD recording experience, but don't have to show any "stinking badges". Such arrogance! I will continue to hang out over at AVS with the adults. They don't let you get away with your outrageous claims and "passed along" information there. "Passed along"- is this like gossip? I listen to people who deal in facts.

3. If I searched for "crap" would I find your opinions?

Not to worry, I am out of here!!

[And milord will reply "Good Riddance" to the "amateur" and who will have lost?]



Griz

[MeekloBraca]

"LordSurf has a tendency to comment on things that he hasn't even been in the same room with let alone used. As a result you really have to be skeptical of his advice. He is very knowledgable in certain areas but appears foolish at times when he attempts to stretch into areas he knows nothing about. This very often makes him appear to be an idiot.

Don't let this stop you from taking his advice in areas where he is knowledgable."

I agree with this. Not all of his advice is worth taking.

[SingSing]

Hey, if you ask others how to spend your money. That's typical what you get.

[next]

"LordSurf has a tendency to comment on things that he hasn't even been in the same room with let alone used. As a result you really have to be skeptical of his advice. He is very knowledgable in certain areas but appears foolish at times when he attempts to stretch into areas he knows nothing about. This very often makes him appear to be an idiot.

Don't let this stop you from taking his advice in areas where he is knowledgable."

I agree with this. Not all of his advice is worth taking.

But some of it is. Yes.

[next]

Hey, if you ask others how to spend your money. That's typical what you get.

LOL. So true! Plus combine this with the tendency for people to justify their own purchase! Dangerous combination.

[lordsmurf]

Well, good news and bad news. I went to Best Buy, and this guy Peter tells me to wait while he went to the back of the store to check for the reorder. He came back with nada, nothing. I was frustrated becuase I left the store empty handed. The good news is that they did give me the online price at the moment, so I ordered it and with any luck my grandmother or an uncle will pass through McAllen on their next trip to South Padre Island. My recorder arrives on the 27th, I will put pressure on someone to bring me my re corder back to Monterrey. I also couldn't find the Sima CT200, so I guess I will buy it some other time online. What matters is that I got a nice price and in one or two weeks I might be enjoying my new DVD recorder... and posting some comments.

That sucks. At any rate, I wish you well on this, I hope you can get what you want. If I lived closer to the border, I'd help you out.

Not to worry, I am out of here!!
[And milord will reply "Good Riddance" to the "amateur" and who will have lost?]
Griz

My exact comment is more like "don't let the door bump you on the ass on the way out". You came here simply to be confrontational, and then your attempts to twist things is pretty pathetic. For example, you ask for facts, I tell you they can be found by searching (including some sample terms to look for), and you respond that it's just my opinion.

Panasonic is no more the example of a good DVD recorder than rap is a good example of music. You're correct, this forum doesn't cater too well to fanboys of anything, be it AMD or Panasonic or whatever. We discuss products at length, including flaws and inferiorities (and with a realistic and broad outlook, free of guessing and rumors). You won't find posts titled "BRAND-X PRODUCT IS THE BEST EVER!" like you do at other certain other forums.

[nelson133]

The primary problem with Lordsmurf that I have noticed is that he expresses irrational hatred for products and/or companies. I sometimes wonder if he works for JVC. They make a decent dvd recorder, I have one, but it isn't the be all and end all he makes it out to be. Nyah Levi

[lordsmurf]

The primary problem with Lordsmurf that I have noticed is that he expresses irrational hatred for products and/or companies. I sometimes wonder if he works for JVC. They make a decent dvd recorder, I have one, but it isn't the be all and end all he makes it out to be. Nyah Levi

I think we've had this conversation before. I don't work for anybody that sells products of any kind (indeed, I work in service industries, always have). Nor do I think any of my mutual funds have any shares in many video-related tech companies either. Definitely no straight stocks.

If you truly follow all my posts, you'll notice I suggest different products for different needs. That includes Panasonic products (yes, even DVD recorders!). And I do not always suggest JVC as the best options, and there are really only three kinds of products of theirs that I would recommend (DVD recorders, VHS tapes, high-end S-VHS VCRs), and nothing more.

My only motivation is trying to help people with solutions that are best for them, when it concerns digital media products (video, photo, design).

Only when you ask for silly "the best" type products, which we see far too many of, I'll give the name of products that work in the most common situations (example: JVC DVD recorders are great general-use recorder in many situations, unlike Panasonic recorders which are not as variable). But you only get general advice when you ask a general question. You'll notice I usually try to milk more info out of people, to see what they'll be doing.

[FulciLives]

The situation as I see it ...

Panasonic was the first with a consumer brand fully functional "well working" DVD recorder. They were there before anyone else. Websites such as this one and avsforum.com etc. have a lot of early adopters when it comes to new technology. Thus the Panasonic became a popular choice and was heavily discussed at both websites.

However the two sites are different in that videohelp.com started out in a very ummm general way as to how to make your own videos from analog sources and then how to back-up and convert DVD discs etc. whereas the avsforum.com is geared towards ... well it tends to be geared more towards the "I have so much money and what the best product I can buy" type of person. I dare say this website attracts a more detailed oriented person but I'm getting off track perhaps.

The point is Panasonic was first with a fully functional DVD recorder that was somewhat inexpensive (at least compared to the first Pioneer models) and as such it became very popular over at the avsforum.com website (and this one as well) where you have a lot of early adopters. However the point is that it was an expensive thing those early models so you did tend to see more talk at the avsforum.com website than here because the typical avsforum.com user seems to have a lot more disposable income than the average videohelp.com user.

As a result Panny did not become overly ingrained into our community whereas the avsforum.com community held Panny in very high regard ... if not on a pedestal. Hell even I sung praise to the early Panny models ... at first.

The more I played with one though the more I came to realize that despite the fact that it made things "easy" the quality was not great (I had one of the early models with the IRE BLACK LEVEL bug) and I quickly stopped using it in favor of my earlier method of using a TV tuner type computer based capture solution.

Another side point ... people at this website were already familiar with a wide range of computer related video capture solutions and had come to learn what a good capture card was capable of ... something lacking in the avsforum.com community which might have added to the fact that the avsforum.com users held the Panny DVD recorders in such high regard as they could finally make their own DVD discs with ease.

Anyways ...

As other makers (Pioneer, JVC, Toshiba etc.) got into the game the less-than-stellar results of Panny DVD recorders become all too obvious as Pioneer and JVC clearly had better looking results and although early Toshiba units had the IRE BLACK LEVEL bug even those models had better looking results otherwise (i.e., in terms of a lack of MPEG compression noise etc.).

However as this community moved past the Panny legacy the avsforum.com community seemed to be "stuck" in the mythical land of Panny bliss ... which continues to this very day.

As I've tried to explain I think this happened due to this website having more technically inclined people whereas the avsforum.com website has more of a "I just want it to work and it seems to work fine and everyone else here thinks it works fine so I have the best" type attitude. Granted these are very general comments to make but I don't make them lightly.

The hostility of Panny lovers to those that bash Panny is really a rather unique situation that would be a great "case study" for someone in the field of psychology LOL

I don't like Panny because I have seen with my own eyes the lackluster quality especially compared to units by other makers. To top it off we had a whole bunch of users in our community that really ran some very interesting tests on a variety of model/makes of DVD recorders. I have tried to bring this up before at the avsforum.com website ... going so far as to post links to these tests ... only to meet very negative comments.

And here we have the great divide.

I don't get it ... I just don't get it ... why the Panny people love Panny so much in the face of so many ... dare I say the word? ... yes I will ... facts ... yes FACTS ... when it comes to other makes having superior quality to the Panny units.

I've moved on (I have a Pioneer stand alone DVD recorder and love the quality) and I would like to think that any unbiased person reading things at this website ... having looked at all the (very detailed) test results ... I just can't see that person coming away with ... Panny is the best oh yeah!

It just doesn't make any sense to me ... at least not in a logical way.

I also find it strange that the Panny lovers say that non Panny lovers are biased against Panny. Well ummm why do you think we (Panny haters) are this way? The answer to that should be obvious but here goes ...

We have seen the quality of Panny units. We have seen the quality of other units. We have seen how the quality of Panny is sub-standard compared to the other units. Therefore we feel that logically Panny units are crap. Yet we find a very strong "resistance" to this concept from Panny users which to us is nothing more than nonsense from the Panny loving crowd ... we in turn (Panny haters) get a bit bitter and start to think that all these Panny loving people must have a screw loose or aren't very bright as to what video is and how it should look etc.

So there you go.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[FulciLives]

I did want to add one more thing ... in the spirit of being fair and unbiased ...

The Panny loving crowd only have one thing going for them as I see it.

The Panny DVD recorders DO work and DO have some nice "features" such as the ability to do FLEX record i.e., variable bitrate instead of a fixed bitrate. They have DVD-RAM which a lot of other units do not have etc.

So one can argue that the Panny DVD recorders are very functional and with this I will agree.

However the point is this ... Panny DVD recorders just do not have the best image quality (as well as other issues) and since other units do provide much superior quality ... well there you go.

That from a Panny hating person of course so take it with a grain of salt LOL

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[next]

So what.

The problem with this site is that it had always had a polarizing culture.

I know because I was here long before June of 2001. The server took a belch and I had to re-register in '01.

A member from here recently post on that other board that "the Panasonic culture must come to an end".

Why. Who cares.

Go look at the Panasonic threads over there. They could care less what anybody else is using.

At this site it was - were going to jam down your throat what we think is best for you. When it was actually what was best for "me" and not so much what was best for the forum member asking the question. Not from everybody but from way too many. Ever moderators.

Look at the Magnavox thread over there. It is almost 7 months old. Has 388 post and over 33,000 views. That never would have been allowed to survive here.

So what's the result? Peolpe leaving. A JVC combo unit limited to a composite connection on the back.

And a ghost town.

[lordsmurf]

The hostility of Panny lovers to those that bash Panny is really a rather unique situation that would be a great "case study" for someone in the field of psychology LOL

Very much so.

It's almost a religion to so many Panasonic owners. It's like they are required to evangelize and "spread the word" that they have the one true religion. No other brand has that. Quite the contrast in fact, most of us are declaring there should be no religion at all, much less the "one true" one. The worship and love of those Panasonic DVD recorders products only festers in a few places online, and in some half-cocked magazine reviews that are more about features and style than video/audio quality.

It really reminds me of Mac computer fanboys. They have hostility towards Windows and Linux and anything that is not Mac, and the rest of us really couldn't care either way, we just want a device that works well for the needs at hand. You see this with AMD CPUs from time to time too, though I haven't seen it in "full force" in some time now. Rather than just acknowledging their favorite product has deficits (and Panasonic DVD recorders have quite a few!), they try to turn the tables and point out errors on other products (often times overstating the actual severity), or they just vent anger. Many more outright lie or spread false rumors.

Freud would probably suggest they have sexual tensions or deficiencies.

So what. ..... Why. Who cares.

So what, you say? Because some of us like to live in reality, that's why. Not fantasy land where your favorite product is made of gum drops and sunshine, and it's the best thing ever made and everybody should own one.

And for a group that supposedly doesn't care what you're using, they sure spout off some venomous bullshit against all other products, when something other than Panasonic is suggested.

[next]

The hostility of Panny lovers to those that bash Panny is really a rather unique situation that would be a great "case study" for someone in the field of psychology LOL

Very much so.

It's almost a religion to so many Panasonic owners. It's like they are required to evangelize and "spread the word" that they have the one true religion. No other brand has that. Quite the contrast in fact, most of us are declaring there should be no religion at all, much less the "one true" one. The worship and love of those Panasonic DVD recorders products only festers in a few places online, and in some half-cocked magazine reviews that are more about features and style than video/audio quality.

It really reminds me of Mac computer fanboys. They have hostility towards Windows and Linux and anything that is not Mac, and the rest of us really couldn't care either way, we just want a device that works well for the needs at hand. You see this with AMD CPUs from time to time too, though I haven't seen it in "full force" in some time now. Rather than just acknowledging their favorite product has deficits (and Panasonic DVD recorders have quite a few!), they try to turn the tables and point out errors on other products (often times overstating the actual severity), or they just vent anger. Many more outright lie or spread false rumors.

Freud would probably suggest they have sexual tensions or deficiencies.

So what. ..... Why. Who cares.

So what, you say? Because some of us like to live in reality, that's why. Not fantasy land where your favorite product is made of gum drops and sunshine, and it's the best thing ever made and everybody should own one.

And for a group that supposedly doesn't care what you're using, they sure spout off some venomous bullshit against all other products, when something other than Panasonic is suggested.

Wow. I don't know what to say. It has obviously become (or has been) pathological.

Did you really write this or did somebody who was trying to frame you in a bad light write it?

The place continues to get sicker. I did not think it was possible

[FulciLives]

Wow. I don't know what to say. It has obviously become (or has been) pathological.

LOL

Oh my ... sigh ...

It is the Panny loving crowd that is pathological. Not the other way around.

Are you really THAT blind?

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[next]

I don't even own a Panasonic. You guys really need to relax.

[FulciLives]

I don't even own a Panasonic. You guys really need to relax.

Well you are one of the few that started all the "bullshit" in this thread and continued to do so ... LOL

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[next]

Take another pill even if it's not time yet. Where did I mention anything Panasonic?

[next]

A member from here recently post on that other board that "the Panasonic culture must come to an end".

Why. Who cares.

Go look at the Panasonic threads over there. They could care less what anybody else is using.

Ok here I used Panasonic. Big deal. I intentionally kept the poster anonymous and gave my impression of what I read. Substitute "Pioneer threads" for "Panasonic threads" if it makes you feel any better.

[trhouse]

I own a Panasonic and a Pioneer. When I started trying to reproduce Gshelley61's Panasonic test results with a Panasonic DMR-ES10, I could not. It was Lordsmurf and vhelp who came to the rescue by suggesting using virtualdubmod to do the image capures. In the process, it was discovered that Gshelley61's original tests of a Panasonic was also in error resulting in soft images which were not caused by the recorder but by the image capture software. Here is the thread,

https://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=263530

This sticky

https://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=279460

was the result of a collaborative effort between myself, Gshelly61, and vhelp. We had no idea of how to make it a sticky, so who made it happen...Lordsmurf.

Was Lordsmurf wrong in what he said about Panasonics? Here is what it says in the manual for the DMR-ES35V which is what I use to create +DL's.




This applies to non-hard drive models. I would like to test a hard drive model sometime to see how it handles the layer change.

We have our disagreements from time to time. Right now, Lordsmurf and I have come to different conclusions about the JVC M10S. My test of one unit shows it to be an IRE=0 machine. He thinks otherwise, so I will be testing second unit soon. This second unit had the loading bug, has been repaired and has now worked 24/7 for a week. This burn-in testing was completed this past weekend.

It is important to look at your own circumstances to see if advice fits. For example, it is true that some recorders drop to half D1 at four hours while other like the Panasonic and new Pioneer 640H do full D1 at four hours. It might be a disadvantage if the recorder can only record single layer but the new Pioneer and Panasonics can record DL, so the alternative is just to record SP at full D1 to a DL disk and get nearly four hours.

[kitty]

I won't evangelize on Panasonic vs. non-Panasonic. My only bias may be I own a ES45V at the moment.

I am willing to do some recordings off the inputs to disc and mail/ftp it to someone for analysis.
SP, FR, EP, whatever.

I have stated on the forums before that the older units like the ESx0 series have different hardware (possibly firmware) than the ESx5 series. Tests should be done - "only the facts, ma'am"

I think all can agree that different models of anyones line can be better or worder than older models. Lots of examples from pretty much every manufacturer.

[mzemina]

I just saw a LG DR1F9H at Best Buy this weekend. I wanted to know from those of you that have one, since this recorder can record on DVD-Ram, does it have a 1-second record feature when recording on DVD-Ram discs? I believe that the Pany's offer this (one second record) feature and was wondering if this is due to recording on DVD-Ram discs?

[kitty]

Yes, Pannys do quick record & other fancy things with DVD-Ram. DVD+R has to be preformatted if I remember right, DVD-R not but not fast like RAM.