lossless dv transfering

[zoranb]

k ill have a go

[ZAPPER]

Err, seems that WMM is giving the clips new timecodes. I got to go, but I will be watching this thread and tinkering around some more when I get back

[ahhaa]

One other option, if you can keep your scenes under 4.5 gigabytes, might be to burn them to DVD as DV data, not video. The you wouldn't have to work in real time when reassembling.

[JohnnyMalaria]

Err, seems that WMM is giving the clips new timecodes. I got to go, but I will be watching this thread and tinkering around some more when I get back

Can you be more specific?

Are you using WMM just to import the DV from the camcorder and then send it back out to the camcorder again? Are you making any changes to the video? If you are, it will write new information.

Also, you will ALWAYS get new timecodes (not dates, time of recording) when recording a DV stream with a consumer DV device.

[zoranb]

Guys wow wow hold there a sec, im going bananas over this. Im mixed up, i havent understood how can i achieve dates and time not changed in footage i will transfer from mini dv tapes to either HD or D8 tapes. To this question i want an answer plz.
thanx

[gadgetguy]

[sarcasm]I have no idea why you would be confused.[/sarcasm]

I'll try to sum up everything in an example and everyone correct me if I'm wrong because this is not from experience, but my understanding of what I've read here.

On 10/10/06 at 3:00pm you record 10 minutes of video on your MiniDV.
On 10/11/06 you capsfer the video via firewire using WinDV to HDD, your video will retain the timecode information (frame by frame) from 10/10/06 15:00 - 10/10/06 15:10.
On 10/11/06 at 10:00pm you export that video to the D8 camera, the camera will write new timecodes from 10/11/06 22:00 - 22:10.
On 10/12/06 at 9:00am you capsfer the D8 tape using WinDV to HDD. The timecode information shows from 10/11/06 22:00-22:10.

Alternatively if you direct tranfer from MiniDV to D8.
On 10/10/06 at 3:00pm you record 10 minutes of video on your MiniDV
On 10/11/06 at 9:00am you transfer from MiniDV to D8. The D8 cam writes new timecodes
On 10/12/06 you capsfer the D8 tape to HDD the timecodes will show 10/11/06 09:00-09:10.

[zoranb]

so in other words, no there is no way i can retain date/time if i make anykind of transfer, right?

[gadgetguy]

so in other words, no there is no way i can retain date/time if i make anykind of transfer, right?

Not if you go to another tape, no. However if you follow ahhaa's advice and save them to Data DVDs, the timecodes will be maintained until you're ready to use them. Alternatively you could keep them fairly close by changing the date/time in the recording cam to match the timecodes of the original recording.

[JohnnyMalaria]

No!!!!

If you do a direct tape-to-tape copy using Firewire from a DV device to another DV device (not D8 it seems), the time of the original recording and the date of the original recording are preserved.

If you do a transfer to computer via Firewire and then transfer back to another DV device (not D8 it seems), the time of the original recording and the date of the original recording are preserved.

The *timecode* will change.

Here's an example. The source tape was captured/transferred via Firewire from a Sony DV camcorder to a hard drive on a Windows XP PC. I used our Enosoft DV Processor since it lets you burn the time, date, timecode etc during the capture/transfer. The DV file now on disk was then sent to another DV device (in this case a Sony DSR-11 tape deck) via Firewire using the same Enosoft DV Processor. Finally, I then captured/transferred from the DSR-11 to the computer, again with the DV Processor software. What you see in the image is that the date and the time of the recording (and the camera settings) remain unchanged - only the timecode changes.

Date = 05/11/26 = 26 November 2005
Time = 17:57:40 = 5:57pm
Timecode (original recording): 00:08:16;14
Timecode (copied version): 00:00:11;08





Note: It isn't necessary to use the Enosoft DV Processor for the capture/transfer.

[JohnnyMalaria]

On 10/10/06 at 3:00pm you record 10 minutes of video on your MiniDV.
On 10/11/06 you capsfer the video via firewire using WinDV to HDD, your video will retain the timecode information (frame by frame) from 10/10/06 15:00 - 10/10/06 15:10.

You are confusing timecode with time/date. 10/10/06 15:00 is date of recording and time of recording - NOT timecode.

On 10/11/06 at 10:00pm you export that video to the D8 camera, the camera will write new timecodes from 10/11/06 22:00 - 22:10.
On 10/12/06 at 9:00am you capsfer the D8 tape using WinDV to HDD. The timecode information shows from 10/11/06 22:00-22:10.

It does seem that D8 replaces existing date/time with the current time of the D8 device. BUT - if you go the HDD route, forget about D8. Transfer to/from MiniDV. You only need one MiniDV device.

Alternatively if you direct tranfer from MiniDV to D8.
On 10/10/06 at 3:00pm you record 10 minutes of video on your MiniDV
On 10/11/06 at 9:00am you transfer from MiniDV to D8. The D8 cam writes new timecodes
On 10/12/06 you capsfer the D8 tape to HDD the timecodes will show 10/11/06 09:00-09:10.

As long as you preserve the time and date of the recording, you don't need to worry about the timecode being different. In fact, if you want to compile scenes from many tapes onto one, you NEED to have continuous timecode on that compilation tape for editing software to know where on the tape it is at any given time.

[zoranb]

u see now why i was puzzled before?

[gadgetguy]

Oh, I was always under the impression that the date and time were part of the timecode, but your explanation (with example) makes it more clear, (at least to me).

Edit: Speculation... The fact that you are seeing different results from the different devices makes me wonder if there are differences between two of the same tape format. Are there different model/manufacturer MiniDV devices that act like the results you're getting with D8 and vice versa. It seems like it might be a firmware type of issue that may get changed and can really cause confusion for anyone following this thread. (As if it wasn't confusing enough already.)

[JohnnyMalaria]

My guess is that it is due to the D8 format. Probably a cost saving. Generating a new time, date and timecode requires less on-board processing than preserving some information and discarding other. Or - it's just a typical consumer branding thing where "we deliberately crippled that function so that you will have to invest in the more expensive equipment". A bit like manual camera controls vs. fully automatic everything that you cannot override.

(I know someone with a D8 camcorder that doesn't have Firewire - just USB.)

[ZAPPER]

Confused? Hell, now I can't even get my PC to reconize my cam! The cam screen reads DV IN but it doesn't register on the PC? But yes, I was looking at the timecode and not the date. More tinkering is in order.

[ahhaa]

OK, I was asked to say a little more about copying DV to DVD as data...

First, I got into it because my HD was filling up fast with nice nature footage that I didn't have an immediate use for. Then too, XP sees the files as massively fragmented. What I wanted to do was set up a Firewire DVD drive that could be controlled by the editing software, was not successful in that.

I can't speak to the way all the various programs store DV on the HD. But in the case of AVID, it is stored as DV, with full user control, and the program will output DV as well. This works with the free version of AVID found here: http://www.avid.com/freedv/ (AVID is a pro system, recently bought Pinnacle, but some here don't care much for it.)

AVID handles everything by timecode. It memorizes the TC of each individual tape & stores it with the files on the HD in the OMFI folder. An AVID user created a program called MediaSift, which will pull all the files created for a specific project and sort them for you. http://www.senkou.com/

As a test, I copied some unneeded DV files onto a DVD in data mode (it verified an ordinary +R after the writing- no need for DVD RAM); then deleted them from the HD. On a cold start I copied them back into the OMFI folder & voila! there they were in the bins ready to go...

As my goal was to substitute a Firewire DVD burner 'deck' for my now irreplacable camcorder (Sony D8 TRV-520, which wasn't taking real kindly to all the shuttling tape), and I couldn't get that to tie into the control system, I left it there, and learned to be more spartan about copying shots to the HD, finishing projects before starting others, etc.

Other editing software may handle things differently- if it doesn't claim/do 'frame accurate' then it isn't using timecode. But somewhere on your HD the files are stored, and somewhere in your instructions it will explain stored as what...

Some of the other guys can mebbe point you to some free software listed here that for sure saves timecode along with the raw DV. You haven't told us what you are using, or why the TC is so important.

Hope this helps!

[ZAPPER]

@ ahhaa
I don't know that the timecode was the major issue, I think that Zoranb was wanting to keep the time/date stamp and I am assuming that like me he can't tell what year Xmas or holiday or whatever event he is looking at without a little help. Just my guess.

As I recall it all started with what I thought was a clever and simple transfer, one tape straight to another cam by firewire, do a couple of cuts and put it back on the mini tape nice and tidy. Sounded so simple that I almost wet myself. Then the day/date thing came about and it was warped into timecode (I may have helped to add a little confussion along the way) throw in a PC transfer and the mix becomes really cloudy, but entertaining.

I can add some more to really muddle things up. Could one PC be firewired to two cams or more and be fully functional? Can a PCs multiport firewire card be taking footage from a cam by firewire and putting it on to an external firewire HDD or DVD burner at the same time?

I can't do much in the line of testing myself until I get my firewire working out of the cam again (Oh please let be just a cheap cable!)

[JohnnyMalaria]

@ ahhaa
Could one PC be firewired to two cams or more and be fully functional? Can a PCs multiport firewire card be taking footage from a cam by firewire and putting it on to an external firewire HDD or DVD burner at the same time?

Absolutely!

Our Enosoft DV Processor takes full advantage of that. We've had up to four DV devices connected at one time. In effect, you end up turning your PC in to a Firewire-to-Firewire DV video real time processor. You can control the input and output devices from the PC (including shuttling). You can also transfer to disk (i.e., create an AVI file) and send an existing DV AVI file back to a device. You can also record from two or more camcorders simultaneously with perfect sync (even on separate PCs!). Add logos, correct brightness, contrast, phase etc etc.

We're still in beta, so feel free to try it (fully functional, no spoilers).

[ahhaa]

Zap & JM - its an interesting, even important discussion- seen nothing like it elsewhere... am dling Enosoft right now!
(Is it really only 2.84 megs? Tried it again- am not getting the full file to dl. Second try came in at 356K; using Firefox DL manager.)


If its just a question of reordering shots... I've had good luck with a Firewire-capable standalone DVR- DVD picture quality looked like broadcast.

For that matter, my Pause button on the DVR works during Record.

Also, I seem to remember mis-setting something on the camcorder once, and seeing the TC showing up on the AV output. (I'd somehow made it an effect.)

The only real weakness of DV tape is the serial access; well, the sheer size is prob'ly another. Makes you wonder how much news footage, etc is simply being tossed because it can't be easily stored in archive form.

[JohnnyMalaria]

Zap & JM - its an interesting, even important discussion- seen nothing like it elsewhere... am dling Enosoft right now!
(Is it really only 2.84 megs? Tried it again- am not getting the full file to dl. Second try came in at 356K; using Firefox DL manager.)

An earlier version was that size - now it is 6.25MB.

If you still have problems getting it to download, please let me know. (I've just tried with IE6 at it worked fine).

BTW - the current version still has some incomplete features. Right now, the Record button is non-functional (i.e., the on-screen Record button won't put your camcorder into Record mode - this was a deliberate decision to avoid accidentally erasing important footage! We will be enabling the button in the next release and, most likely, have an option to require a double-click and/or to click with the shift button pressed).

[ahhaa]

Got it this time- used the 'registered version'.

On first look, it might be handy for those whose camcorders do Analog to DV passthru as well, for those dark old VHS tapes!:]

[MpegEncoder]

Ive done it and it does change, is there a way round this from cam to cam or should i try the cam 2 hd transfer? has anyone tried the HD transfer?

What camcorder models are you using? Are they both DV or is one D8?

D8 is DV. D8 is Digital 8 which is an 8mm digital format. You might be meaning Mini-DV when you say DV. Mini-DV is also a DV format.

D8 = Digital 8mm tape format recording DV data
Mini-DV = DV data on a smaller Mini-DV tape format

[JohnnyMalaria]

Yes, I'm trying to determine if the OP is using a Digital 8 camcorder as the recording device rather than a MiniDV camcorder. It seems that Digital 8 devices do not maintain the date/time of recording of an incoming DV signal via Firewire.

[zoranb]

It seems that Digital 8 devices do not maintain the date/time of recording of an incoming DV signal via Firewire.

But recording from miniDV to HD the date/time is maintained?

[JohnnyMalaria]

Yes.

And if you send the file from HD back to a MiniDV camcorder, the date/time still remain. Only the timecode changes.

[sorinicu]

The camera KNOWS when is recording thru the lenses and adds the timecode.
When is recording from the fireware it leaves unchanged the timestamp (or at least should - depends of the camera's firmware I guess).
The transfer is loseless, somebody did an experiment with this but I cannot fid it now - It did 10 transfers of a static image recorded with a miniDV between a Digital8 and miniDV. After the 10 transfers, the static images where compared in PC. No change occured.

[zoranb]

Yes.

And if you send the file from HD back to a MiniDV camcorder, the date/time still remain. Only the timecode changes.

Have u actually tried this? With what cam?

[JohnnyMalaria]

Yes.

And if you send the file from HD back to a MiniDV camcorder, the date/time still remain. Only the timecode changes.

Have u actually tried this? With what cam?

Yes - please see this post: https://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?p=1592023#1592023

I have done this with a variety of Sony camcorders and video recorders.

[zoranb]

Ok i made the transfer between my mini dv cam and another digital8 cam. The time/date where saved unchanged!

[edDV]

I haven't done much cam to cam transfer. Need to try that some day.

...

Just wondering, when you have the cams linked by FW, what different control options do you get if any? And, are you recording using the VCR type controls or the controls that would normally record what the lense is pointed at? Can one camera record from the lense of the other cam?

DV camcorders have two main modes:

1. Camera - Firewire out is a stream from the camera lens. Timecode is from the internal clock.

2a VCR - Video/audio plus timecode reference is from the internal tape if present. Tape device controls are active locally and over Firewire.

2b VCR - In analog pass through mode, Firewire follows the analog inputs. Some camcorders default to this mode if there is no tape in VCR mode. Others require a menu setting to activate analog pass through.

Various camcorders have additional major modes for still pictures, "webcam" streaming over USB, etc.

So to answer your question, if the camcorder is in "Camera" mode, a second camcorder or an external computer, or a hard disc recorder like the Firestore FS4 can record from the first camcorder's lens.

External control is only allowed in "VCR" mode. This is a trap for analog pass through and devices like the Canopus ADVC. Some PC software assumes it is talking to tape. It issues a cue command and waits forever for the tape to cue. Most PC software today has a perference to enable or disable "device control". This is needed to externally capture the live DV stream from the camera or analog input.