How to reencode a 16:9 MPG movie on Canopus Procoder ?

[Zetti]

Hi all,

I have a MPG file that was recorded in the 16:9 format, so as far as I understand its header has this information, actually I retrieved this file from a PAL DVD using DVD Decrypter.

Now I want to reencode it using Procoder, I mean I'll shrink it manually, but of course I wanna keep it as 16:9 format.

When I import it on Procoder, the "source" dialog box keeps on the "4:3 (default)" option, shouldn't it had realized it's a 16:9 movie ? So, I manually set it to 16:9;

On the "target" dialog box, I set it to 16:9 instead of "4:3 (default)", but when the encoding started, I realized it was widescreening again the movie, I mean, there were extra black bars.....weird.....

I only had a "proper" encode (I think....) after setting both formats to 4:3 ( ), I mean, on the "source" and "target" screens I had to set both to 4:3...

Please, any Procoder user could give me proper instructions ? Shouldn't it had understood that the source is 16:9 and put the setting to that, and so on the target dialogue screen I would have manually to set it to 16:9, so it'd keep the format ??

And how should I author it properly on Maestro ? I wrote a message to the authoring forum too.

Thanks, it's all confusing,

Zetti

[BJ_M]

procoder will read mpeg files headers correctly - it does not read avi file aspect ratios though (it just uses the last setting for same fle type) .

i suggest you double check the actual mpeg file you are re-encoding .

as for authoring - in maestro, set maestro to the same aspect as your source file , read the manual .. remember you have to do this for the menus and each title

[Zetti]

procoder will read mpeg files headers correctly - it does not read avi file aspect ratios though (it just uses the last setting for same fle type) .

i suggest you double check the actual mpeg file you are re-encoding .

as for authoring - in maestro, set maestro to the same aspect as your source file , read the manual .. remember you have to do this for the menus and each title

Thanks BJ, please, which tool can I use to check what is on the header of the MPG file ?

By what you're saying I understand that the header on my file is wrongly set to 4:3, as Canopus says on the "source" dialog box it's 4:3, right ?

I know that restream would change it, but for my own learning process I'd like to know what is there already;

Thanks for the maestro tip, by what I understand I'll have to right click on the bottom corner of each screen and set it to 16:9 for videos and menus, OK ?

Thanks,

Zetti

[BJ_M]

restream and a bunch of other programs here will show you the headerinfo ///

the menu aspect ratio is in the menu section

[Zetti]

restream and a bunch of other programs here will show you the headerinfo ///

the menu aspect ratio is in the menu section

Thanks BJ,

I think I've started figuring out the problem I have,

The guy that recorded the DVD in a stand alone player said it's 16:9, I have a regular TV so there are black bars at both up and bottom part of the TV screen as expected - OK.

I wanna convert it to NTSC using Procoder keeping the 16:9 aspect ratio. BUT both Procoder and Restream says that it's 4:3, so the info on the header is WRONG.

So, I think that the stand alone recorder has put the wrong information at the header of the MPG file, right ?

As fas as I understand, I have a big problem in hand, now the black bars are part of the video itself and so, to properly convert it to widescreen, I'd have to crop it, am I right?

Would Procoder crop it while converting to NTSC ? I have Ulead Video Studio 9 too,

Please, I invite all friends to tell me whether I'm wrong or right,

MANY THANKS,

Zetti

[manono]

BUT both Procoder and Restream says that it's 4:3, so the info on the header is WRONG.

Probably not. Sounds to me like it's just widescreen 4:3. Nothing unusual in that.

Now, if you want to convert it to 16:9 NTSC, crop 72 pixels from both top and bottom, and resize to 720x480 for NTSC (I think). Not much point in converting from 4:3 to 16:9 though, in my opinion.

[Zetti]

Probably not. Sounds to me like it's just widescreen 4:3. Nothing unusual in that.

Thanks manono, please forgive me my dumbness, but I'm totally new to 16:9 authoring

I'm now completely confused about what you're saying, for me, a widescreen movie would ALWAYS be 16:9, never 4:3

How should I reencode it ? Set Procoder to 4:3 (according to the source) and that's all ?

I don't have a WS TV here, but of course I wanna buy one,and more than that I wanna do the right thing, how would a WS TV display a video like that, I mean a "widescreen" DVD video with the header as 4:3 ??

If I crop it - I'll reencode anyway - would a WS TV display both DVD's on the same way ?

Many thanks,

Zetti

[BJ_M]

use the crop function in procoder

[guns1inger]

If you play the video back on your PC, is everyone tall and thin ?

If so, you have a 16:9 recording with 4:3 aspect ratio in the header, and restream etc will fix it. If they are not, you have a letterboxed widescreen, and cropping, resizing and re-encoding is your only option.

[Zetti]

If you play the video back on your PC, is everyone tall and thin ?

If so, you have a 16:9 recording with 4:3 aspect ratio in the header, and restream etc will fix it. If they are not, you have a letterboxed widescreen, and cropping, resizing and re-encoding is your only option.

Thanks guns,
Thanks BJ,

No, people are on their correct height and weight :P , I mean, playing the MPG video using Windows Media Player or Nero Show Time shows the people in their correct aspect....AND black bars at both the up and bottom part,

Please, AM I RIGHT when I say that both black bars are part of the video itself - and so the video has been wrongly recorded at the stand alone recorder ?

If so, OK; I'll use Procoder to crop it, actually I'm doing it right now, I've used the drawing tool on Procoder as I don't know the exact number of lines I have to delete at both up and bottom parts, I've tried manolo's settings but he wrote pixels and using his data seemed wrong, thanks Manolo of course, but please does anyone know what number of lines I should type in Procoder to delete and crop both black bars accurately ?

Now I wonder.....is it the way stand alone recorders record 16:9 video, I mean, with wrong header info ?

How do the original DVD look like on a WS TV, if the header is wrong ?

MANY THANKS !! Really apreciated,

Zetti

[manono]

Hi-

Please, AM I RIGHT when I say that both black bars are part of the video itself - and so the video has been wrongly recorded at the stand alone recorder ?

Yes, the black bars are part of the video. No, it hasn't been wrongly recorded by your standalone. That's what you get with widescreen 4:3.

Here, non-anamorphic (4:3) vs anamorphic (16:9):

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/anamorphic/anamorphic185demo.html

I've tried manolo's settings but he wrote pixels and using his data seemed wrong,

In what way wrong? I could very well be wrong, but, no offense intended, I'd sooner believe it coming from guns1inger or BJ_M than from you.

[guns1inger]

Manono's number are correct. Coming from a PAL source, 72 pixels from the top and 72 pixel from the bottom need to be removed. The frame then needs to be resized to the correct height for your target format - in this case NTSC, or 480 pixels high. If you had NTSC source then you would only remove 60 lines from the top and 60 from the bottom.

If it were me, I'd use an avisynth script to crop and resize, and load this into Procoder for encoding.

[Zetti]

In what way wrong? I could very well be wrong, but, no offense intended, I'd sooner believe it coming from guns1inger or BJ_M than from you.

Manono,

Thanks again for your generosity.

Saying that you had possibly mistyped the settings when you kindly tried to help me, does not mean that I'm saying that you don't know technically enough what you're talking about - although it could be possible, of course.

All of us - including BJ and guns - can get confused when kindly try to help other people, and the other side, the people that asked for help, can get confused too, which is much more probable, specially in this case. I know a bit about authoring and video conversion, but 16:9 and 4:3 stuff specifically is new to me.

I typed your settings in Procoder Crop window, and the preview function indicated me that I would cut a bit of useful video this way. So either I haven't understood properly what you said, which is more probable, or you have made a confusion when typing, which can happen, of course.
You mentioned "pixels", which as far as I understand are points on the screen. I have to delete lines, hence MY confusion. As now you have restated your settings, and guns said you're right too, it's clear I am the problem

You said that there's nothing wrong with the video that the stand-alone recorder recorded, it's a WS movie but with a 4:3 header. I don't have a WS TV here, so I can't test, but please, how would the original DVD appear on a WS TV ?

I took a look at the link you provided, thanks again, but as far as I understood the stand alone recorder doesn't do the right thing when it writes a 4:3 setting on the header of a WS film

OK, I don't wanna bother you, I'll study a bit more.

Which seems clear for me now is that, if I wanna author my NTSC version PROPERLY, I have to crop the video, do you all guys agree ?

Thanks again to everybody that has been helping, I'll take another carefull look at Procoder tonight, I can't be that dumb

Thanks again to guns and everybody,

Zetti

[manono]

You said that there's nothing wrong with the video that the stand-alone recorder recorded, it's a WS movie but with a 4:3 header. I don't have a WS TV here, so I can't test, but please, how would the original DVD appear on a WS TV ?

Like the bottom left picture in the link I provided.

Which seems clear for me now is that, if I wanna author my NTSC version PROPERLY, I have to crop the video, do you all guys agree ?

No.

[Zetti]

You said that there's nothing wrong with the video that the stand-alone recorder recorded, it's a WS movie but with a 4:3 header. I don't have a WS TV here, so I can't test, but please, how would the original DVD appear on a WS TV ?

Like the bottom left picture in the link I provided.

Which seems clear for me now is that, if I wanna author my NTSC version PROPERLY, I have to crop the video, do you all guys agree ?

No.

Thanks, I took a look again at the web site you mentioned. It seems to me that the broadcast signal included the black bars, so the stand alone recorder interpreted it correctly as 4:3 (picture 1 left upper part).

If you say that the video will appear on a WS TV like the bottom left picture, well, it needs cropping !

THANKS AGAIN,

Zetti

[Zetti]

use the crop function in procoder

Whenever I type 72 at Procoder crop window and check it at the drawing tool, I realize I'm cutting a bit of useful video,

More than that, it seems I have to crop vertically too (on the sides of the movie) to save only the useful video. Please, any Procoder user out there could give me an "idiot proof" instruction and tell me what I have to type exactly in Procoder ? Of course that with the drawing tool I can aproach a nice result, but I'm so annoyed now that I'd like to know what I'm doing wrong

Thank you,
Best regards,

Zetti

[guns1inger]

72 from the top and 72 from the bottom assumes that the original signal was broadcast in 16:9, but recored as letterbox.

However, depending on what reciever you were using, the source could in fact have been broadcast at 14:9, a type of compromise between true 16:9 material and full screen material. A number of analogue stations broadcast this way. If that is the case, then you cannot nicely encode it to 16:9 without either cropping visible image, or add pillarbox bars.

To find out exactly howmuch you need top crop, open the mpeg in virtualdubmod. Open the filters dialogue and add a null transform filter. You can now open the crop feature. Start cropping the image from the top and the bottom until you hit the edges of the visible image (i.e. remove only the black bars. If you hit the image well before 72 lines, you will have to pillarbox or crop to get a 16:9 result, or simply live with it being 4:3

[Zetti]

72 from the top and 72 from the bottom assumes that the original signal was broadcast in 16:9, but recored as letterbox.

However, depending on what reciever you were using, the source could in fact have been broadcast at 14:9, a type of compromise between true 16:9 material and full screen material. A number of analogue stations broadcast this way. If that is the case, then you cannot nicely encode it to 16:9 without either cropping visible image, or add pillarbox bars.

To find out exactly howmuch you need top crop, open the mpeg in virtualdubmod. Open the filters dialogue and add a null transform filter. You can now open the crop feature. Start cropping the image from the top and the bottom until you hit the edges of the visible image (i.e. remove only the black bars. If you hit the image well before 72 lines, you will have to pillarbox or crop to get a 16:9 result, or simply live with it being 4:3

Thanks guns, I think you're correct, itmight not be exactly 16:9, there's a small diference.

Well, I can try the manually aproach on Procoder, as I did. Thank you, I'll continue from now on, I definitely want the video looking good on my upcoming WS TV, I have to encode it anyway so it's the oportunity now,

Best,

Zetti

[Zetti]

Manono's number are correct. Coming from a PAL source, 72 pixels from the top and 72 pixel from the bottom need to be removed. The frame then needs to be resized to the correct height for your target format - in this case NTSC, or 480 pixels high. If you had NTSC source then you would only remove 60 lines from the top and 60 from the bottom.

I think I've finally figured out the problem. I'm using Canopus to, in an one step process, convert it to NTSC and crop.

First, Canopus converts to NTSC, and later it'll crop, I think. So, my source on the crop window is NTSC, hence why typing 72 cuts too much but typing 60 hits the proper edges.

What still bothers me is that it seems I need to crop on the sides too...weird,

Thanks,

Zetti

[manono]

If what you say is true, that it's converting to NTSC before cropping (a big "if"), then do as guns1inger said earlier to do for an NTSC source, and crop 60 rows of pixels (there, happier now?) from both the top and bottom.

Also as he said earlier, the better way to do this is to frameserve with an AviSynth script. Then you wouldn't have this problem. All automatic PAL to NTSC converting encoders screw it up either by adding duplicate frames or by blending. The result plays jerky, or blurry, or both. There are much better ways to do the conversion, but to use them you'll need AviSynth.

[guns1inger]

If that is the case, I would be doing all the cropping and resizing in avisynth, then frameserving to PorCoder. Why ? Because this sounds like a double resize - resize to NTSC, crop, resize again to 16:9. With avisynth it would be crop, then resize to NTSC 16:9 in one go. Less damage, and faster.

[BJ_M]

If what you say is true, that it's converting to NTSC before cropping (a big "if"), then do as guns1inger said earlier to do for an NTSC source, and crop 60 rows of pixels (there, happier now?) from both the top and bottom.

Also as he said earlier, the better way to do this is to frameserve with an AviSynth script. Then you wouldn't have this problem. All automatic PAL to NTSC converting encoders screw it up either by adding duplicate frames or by blending. The result plays jerky, or blurry, or both. There are much better ways to do the conversion, but to use them you'll need AviSynth.

procoder will change speed instead if you set it up correctly and does a decent job of conversion. Though a program like Digital Fusion or Nuke and high end hardware converters do yet a better job of it ...

[manono]

procoder will change speed instead if you set it up correctly

If you're saying it can slow the framerate from 25fps to 23.976fps progressive (as opposed to speeding it up 25->29.97fps, or slowing it and then hard telecining it to 29.97fps), keeping the total frame count the same, as well as crop and resize for NTSC, and do it all without an AviSynth script, then I'll happily eat my words, and never say nasty things about its framerate conversions again.

[BJ_M]

yes it can it can slow the framerate from 25fps to 23.976fps progressive - as well as crop and resize ... BUT it its resize is not as good as avisynth or vdub ....

it uses two different methods for standards conversion according to canopus - you can not directly select which type except by indirect methods .... more info on the canopus forums

[manono]

Oh, so the method(s) isn't well known then.

I had written more about still sticking with AviSynth because of colorspace conversions and resizing that it can probably handle better. But since I don't know how good Procoder's colorspace conversions are, or what kind of resizing it uses, I deleted that sentence. I know, for example, that TMPGEnc uses a bilinear resizer, which is reason enough for me not to ever let it resize anything.

[Zetti]

If that is the case, I would be doing all the cropping and resizing in avisynth, then frameserving to PorCoder. Why ? Because this sounds like a double resize - resize to NTSC, crop, resize again to 16:9. With avisynth it would be crop, then resize to NTSC 16:9 in one go. Less damage, and faster.

Thanks Guns, manono and BJ,

Well, years ago, before finding Procoder, I used Xedeni's PAL to NTSC method available at this web site, and also used Fulcilives tips.

OK, these people were as nice as possible to me, and the guides are nice, then I used Xesdeni's avisynth scripts, but to be sincere, I got nothing more than problems, desynch problems, etc...

Then, I got Procoder and happily uninstaled avisynth :P

Sorry if I sound too abused, but does anyone of you have the needed avisynth scrit ready handy, so you could just copy-paste it in here ? I would try it.

Of course that, at this point, I could just burn the damn fuc**** original PAL "4:3" disc, but I like to learn and understand other things. I would be very disapointed after buying a WS TV, just to find out that the disc would appear cropped with black bars

Thanks again,

Best

Zetti

[guns1inger]

Have a read of this, and work from there

https://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=300597

[Zetti]

Have a read of this, and work from there

https://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=300597

OK, many thanks

Zetti

[Zetti]

Hi all,

I’m now returning to this thread because after many months I haven’t actually achieved the desired results, let me mention my problem again:

I have an MPEG already DVD compliant PAL stream, with a 4:3 header but it’s a WS movie, so I have figured out that the horizontal black bars are part of the movie itself.
I retrieved this video stream from a DVD disc (that someone else recorded) using DVD Decrypter in IFO mode.
The disc was originally recorded in a stand-alone recorder. Both Restream and Procoder says that the header is set as 4:3.


My goal: to properly CROP the movie and author it as a REAL WS movie. So, when viewed on a regular TV, black horizontal bars should be generated electronically by the player, they WON’T be part of the picture anymore.
When viewed on a WS TV, the video would properly occupy all the screen with NO black bars at all.
Initially I had the idea to convert it to NTSC, but as I have had already many problems I decided to quit this idea and keep it as PAL indeed.

My tools :

Canopus Procoder to CROP the movie and create a NEW PAL stream with a 16:9 header.

Well, that’s what I did, I cut 72 lines both at the up and bottom parts; the “crop rectangle” in Procoder viewer tells me I am doing the right thing….
Again, let me highlight that I have instructed Procoder to create the new file with a 16:9 header- I GUESS THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT.

DVD Maestro to author the disc:

Well, following Maestro’s manual, I must choose the “16:9 letterbox” option, cause “pan and scan” is only an alternative method to make the movie occupy a full screen when viewed on a regular TV. Again, I don’t care about that, I just wanna author properly a REAL WS DVD. So, I HAVE CHOSEN THE “16:9 LETTERBOX” OPTION.
All menus have been properly set to 16x9 aspect.

Intervideo’s Win DVD to watch and check the disc, cause I don’t have (yet…) a WS TV.

Now that’s where I’ve figured out I have a problem: although WinDVD opens emulating a WS TV, there are still the horizontal black bars………as far as I understand, the movie should occupy the entire “WS TV” emulated by WinDVD…….

Please, WHY DO I STILL HAVE THE BLACK BARS ?
Do I have to “set” WinDVD to understand the source as a WS DVD disc ? I don’t think so as it already starts emulating a WS TV……

Should I keep the header in Procoder as 4:3, even if I definitely wanna create a WS movie ? ??!

Does anyone know what I’m doing wrong ????

Regarding using an AVSynth script people suggested, I haven’t used it cause the only source command I know is “AVISource (C://xxx.avi)”, but my source is not AVI but MPEG.
Please, does AVSynth have a command to read a MPEG source, maybe something like “MPGSource” or so ?

Well, opinions are very welcomed,

Many thanks,

Zetti

[steveryan]

Load your MPEG into Dgindex and save the project, that will create a d2v file. You can then use that to create a script like this -

LoadPlugin("C:\Documents and Settings\Steve Ryan\My Documents\dgmpgdec148\DGDecode.dll")
Mpeg2Source("C:\Documents and Settings\Steve Ryan\Desktop\New Folder\films\The Wooden Horse.d2v")