My HDTV says 480i when playing dvd? Is that what it should be?

[Denvers Dawgs]

I have mitsubishi dlp and a toshiba sd2800 dvd player. When I put a dvd on, in the top corner it says 480i? Isn't that low? Shouldn't it be higher than that. If I put on a HD channel it says 1080i, or 480i for regular digital channels? Am I wrong or should the resolution be better the 480i I am getting with my dvds? I am using the component wires (red/blue/green) to connect dvd to tv.....

[yoda313]

Is it a progressive dvd player? If so then you should have an output option to go to progressive mode which would be 480p. If i'ts an upscaling dvd player than you would have to go into the output menu to select the upscale mode.

[FulciLives]

You need to put your DVD player into PROGRESSIVE SCAN mode to get 480p out of it.

However ... many HDTV's have special de-interlacing and 3-2 pulldown circuits built-in that might work better than the DVD player.

So sometimes it is better to feed the TV 480i whereas other times it is better to feed the TV 480p. You just have to try both and determine which looks better to you.

BTW I think PROGRESSIVE SCAN mode only works when using COMPONENT video connectors (unless your DVD player has HDMI in which case that would work as well). I don't think you can use PROGRESSIVE SCAN mode when using COMPOSITE video or S-Video connections.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[Denvers Dawgs]

Well it's not a porgessive scan player. maybe I'll get an upconverting dvd player for xmas....

[yoda313]

My cyberhome cheapo dvd player is progressive and it was $30 after rebates. Though I don't have a hdtv to describe the output of the progressive features....

Just fyi.

EDIT - I think you can get a upconverting dvd player for $100 these days. Maybe less if you hunt around....

[manono]

Well it's not a porgessive scan player. maybe I'll get an upconverting dvd player for xmas....

So your TV set is showing that it's being fed a 480i signal, and it's doing the IVTC/Deinterlacing and upconverting.

[edDV]

Well it's not a porgessive scan player. maybe I'll get an upconverting dvd player for xmas....

So your TV set is showing that it's being fed a 480i signal, and it's doing the IVTC/Deinterlacing and upconverting.

Only if it is capable of IVTC (aka "cinema processing") and that mode is set in the menus.

[manono]

It's an HDTV, right? So it's going to make it progressive one way or another, right? And, assuming for the sake of argument that the DVD is encoded as 23.976fps progressive with the proper RFF and TFF flags set, then it's going to reassemble the fields into progressive frames and drop the duplicates, right? Even the poorest DVD players and HDTVs can read the flags in the video stream, can't they? If it's hard telecined, then it might either deinterlace or IVTC, depending on how good it is, right? And if it's pure video, then it'll deinterlace it one way or another, right? But that's why I wrote it as "IVTC/Deinterlacing", to take care of all eventualities. It's going to do one or the other. It's not just going to give you an uninterrupted flow of interlaced frames.

[ryan_n_waggoner]

It's an HDTV, right? So it's going to make it progressive one way or another, right?

Nope, not really. HDTVs are capable of displaying interlaced (30fps) or progressive (60fps)images, because currently the highest resolution broadcast standard is 1080i....essentially 1080p is just a hypothetical....also, HDTVs, for the time being, at least, have to remain capable of interlaced images because the NTSC standard is 30fps. HD monitors (i.e. no tuner built in) are another matter entirely, but TVs are going to display the image as interlaced for as long as there are interlaced images floating around out there.

[yoda313]

highest resolution broadcast standard is 1080i....essentially 1080p is just a hypothetical

That of course is only for broadcast hdtv. BLURAY and HD-DVD are true 1080p material. As well as hd camcorders.

[edDV]

It's an HDTV, right? So it's going to make it progressive one way or another, right? And, assuming for the sake of argument that the DVD is encoded as 23.976fps progressive with the proper RFF and TFF flags set, then it's going to reassemble the fields into progressive frames and drop the duplicates, right? Even the poorest DVD players and HDTVs can read the flags in the video stream, can't they? If it's hard telecined, then it might either deinterlace or IVTC, depending on how good it is, right? And if it's pure video, then it'll deinterlace it one way or another, right? But that's why I wrote it as "IVTC/Deinterlacing", to take care of all eventualities. It's going to do one or the other. It's not just going to give you an uninterrupted flow of interlaced frames.

As they say, it all depends.

If we assume a "film" progressive 720x480p/23.976 commerical DVD, it will output from a player in one of two ways.

*720x480i/29.97 (telecined in the player) out the composite, S-Video or analog componet YPbPr (green, red, blue) outputs. Use the latter if that is all you have on your TV.

*720x480p/59.94 (Progressive scan mode) Frame repeated in the player 3:2 to get to 59.94 from 23.976. Progressive mode is only possible over YPbPr or DVI/HDMI outputs if present.

Now at the HDTV end, most can handle the progressive output well and either display 720x480p/59.94 directly (some CRT and projector models) or upscale 480p to the native progressive resolution of the display.

As for 720x480i/29.97 inputs, the better HDTV sets will have "cinema mode deinterlacing" (aka inverse telecine or IVTC). These sets will reconstruct the 720x480p/23.976 progressive stream and then frame repeat to 59.94 and in many cases upscale to the displays native resolution.

Cheaper HD sets won't have inverse telecine. These sets will process 480i by

*tossing alternate fields and upscaling to 540p/29.97 (~960x540p) or 1024x768, etc. and then field replicate 2x to 59.94. This was common practice in many early projection sets especially those using DLP. This and similar techniques attempted to avoid projecting double images in the same expanded frame.

*or, it can just attempt a blend deinterlace without inverse telecine and then upscale.

*or, it can "line double" (or BOB) to progressive and use scan and/or electronics to "upscale" or enlarge.

Cheap LCD TV sets use the simple blend (or other) causing 480i to look blurred during motion.

[edDV]

I have mitsubishi dlp and a toshiba sd2800 dvd player. When I put a dvd on, in the top corner it says 480i? Isn't that low? Shouldn't it be higher than that. If I put on a HD channel it says 1080i, or 480i for regular digital channels? Am I wrong or should the resolution be better the 480i I am getting with my dvds? I am using the component wires (red/blue/green) to connect dvd to tv.....

First all DVD are 720x480 (interlace or progressive). "PAL" uses 720x576.

Your player only outputs 480i so the TV says 480i. Your TV also has a "cinema" deinterlacer which means it can recreate 720x480p as it was originally stored on the DVD and then the TV will upscale to 1080p. Make sure you connect using YPbPr (Green-Red Blue) for the best picture.

Try to borrow a good quality progressive DVD player and set the player and the TV to 480p mode also using YPbPr cables. See if the picture is improved enough for you to want to spend the money.

Try to borrow or buy with return rights, an upscaling DVD player with HDMI out. Test it in 480i, 480p and 1080i modes and compare to your current DVD player connected 480i. Note that your current TV will upconvert from 480i or 480p to 1080p internally so you are comparing to see if the upscaling DVD player does a better job and is worth the money.

Test with both progressive "movie" DVDs and interlaced DVDs like what you get from a DVD Recorder.

Alternatively, you can apply that Christmas money to a true HD DVD (or BlueRay) player that plays 1920x1080p/23.976 native discs. A good second gift would be a Netflix HD subscription to rent HD discs.

[manono]

ryan_n_waggoner-

Nope, not really.

Yes, really. HDTVs don't play fields. One way or another any sort of interlaced input gets converted to progressive frames.

essentially 1080p is just a hypothetical...

Hardly. As yoda mentioned, Blu-Ray and HD-DVD have it, I think the Playstation3 is going to have it (don't know for sure), you can do it via an HTPC (although 1080p content may be scarce), and you can buy upconverting DVD players that output 1080p.

...TVs are going to display the image as interlaced for as long as there are interlaced images floating around out there.

Wrong again.

[yoda313]

Hardly. As yoda mentioned, Blu-Ray and HD-DVD have it, I think the Playstation3 is going to have it (don't know for sure), you can do it via an HTPC (although 1080p content may be scarce), and you can buy upconverting DVD players that output 1080p.

Actually I pointed out that the original comment about 1080p being hypothetical is actually correct regarding broadcast hdtv. At least in the US I don't believe any HDTV programming is available in 1080p. I was just pointing out that there are commercially avaiable sources for true 1080p material. Its just not available on OTA sources.

[Denvers Dawgs]

A good second gift would be a Netflix HD subscription to rent HD discs.

Already have blockbuster online, which does have BR an HD disc already.

Ok so right now I have my current dvd player connected with YPbPr (Green-Red Blue) wires for the best picture.

So when testing to see if an upscaling does a better job than my tv. If the tv wins, does that mean I just go for a progressive scan dvd player or stay with what I have?

[edDV]

A good second gift would be a Netflix HD subscription to rent HD discs.

Already have blockbuster online, which does have BR an HD disc already.

Ok so right now I have my current dvd player connected with YPbPr (Green-Red Blue) wires for the best picture.

So when testing to see if an upscaling does a better job than my tv. If the tv wins, does that mean I just go for a progressive scan dvd player or stay with what I have?

I'm just saying in summary that you will see small differences with that TV. Progressive and /or external upscaling may give slight to medium improvement, but your 1080p HDTV will benefit more from a true 1080p source. If I had already purchased that set, I'd rather spend that additional $100-200 towards the purchase of a HD DVD player or BluRay Player/PS3.

You have probably already seen the differeces between upscaled SD and true 1080i/720p broadcasts. 1080p/24 HD/BD DVD will be even better on that TV.

[edDV]

Hardly. As yoda mentioned, Blu-Ray and HD-DVD have it, I think the Playstation3 is going to have it (don't know for sure), you can do it via an HTPC (although 1080p content may be scarce), and you can buy upconverting DVD players that output 1080p.

Actually I pointed out that the original comment about 1080p being hypothetical is actually correct regarding broadcast hdtv. At least in the US I don't believe any HDTV programming is available in 1080p. I was just pointing out that there are commercially avaiable sources for true 1080p material. Its just not available on OTA sources.

Broadcasters have the option to use ASTC 1080p/24 mode but it would consume the entire 19Mb/s bandwidth and push the early tuners further than they might handle. Currently most stations broadcast one 1080i/720p (16:9) + one 480i(4:3) in the 19 Mb/s.

I would expect cable movie channels like HBO-HD to offer 1080p/24 at some point. It may need to wait for the next generation cable boxes that will handle interlace and progressive MPeg4. Currently Comcast is sending 1080i/29.97 at 25Mb/s where 1080p/24 HD DVD VC-1 falls in the 8-16Mb/s range. That would allow Comcast to put two 1080p/24 channels in the same bandwidth as one current 1080i channel.

[jman98]

I would expect cable movie channels like HBO-HD to offer 1080p/24 at some point. It may need to wait for the next generation cable boxes that will handle interlace and progressive MPeg4. Currently Comcast is sending 1080i/29.97 at 25Mb/s where 1080p/24 HD DVD VC-1 falls in the 8-16Mb/s range. That would allow Comcast to put two 1080p/24 channels in the same bandwidth as one current 1080i channel.

I suppose it depends on where you live. I live on the east coast and have Comcast for HD and I can record unencrypted shows directly to my PC via firewire from their cable box. My examination of what I have recorded shows a bit rate of about 17 Mb/s for all of their HD shows. I'm not getting anything from Comcast at any higher bit rates.

[edDV]

I would expect cable movie channels like HBO-HD to offer 1080p/24 at some point. It may need to wait for the next generation cable boxes that will handle interlace and progressive MPeg4. Currently Comcast is sending 1080i/29.97 at 25Mb/s where 1080p/24 HD DVD VC-1 falls in the 8-16Mb/s range. That would allow Comcast to put two 1080p/24 channels in the same bandwidth as one current 1080i channel.

I suppose it depends on where you live. I live on the east coast and have Comcast for HD and I can record unencrypted shows directly to my PC via firewire from their cable box. My examination of what I have recorded shows a bit rate of about 17 Mb/s for all of their HD shows. I'm not getting anything from Comcast at any higher bit rates.

Yes all this is decided at the local neighborhood level. I'm on a new fiber fed (coax last mile) 750MHz system (aka hybrid fiber coax or HFC) where most of the nearby city is on an older 550MHz system where bitrates and channel selection are constrained. During rebuild here the firewire port was open for all channels. HD channels were either 20 or 25Mb/s. Then they inhibited all digital channels (SD and HD) except the locals on the IEEE-1394 port. The locals are still 20 or 25Mb/s.

Locals are all fed over fiber here from the broadcast station to Comcast and then to my town (~75 miles) over fiber and then coax last mile. The result looks better to me than over the air but local station chief engineers claim via the AVS local forum that they feed Comcast the same signal they feed to their transmitters.