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  1. So I am giving in, and I've decided to bite the bullet and purchase a TBC device to get the most out of my VHS (homevideo) to DVD conversion project...

    DigitalFaq.com (http://www.digitalfaq.com/dvdguides/capture/playback.htm) recommends either the DataVideo TBC-1000 or AVToolbox AVT-8710. From my initial research on PRICE, the TBC-1000 seems to be alittle more costly then the AVT-8710.

    Does anyone know what the pro's and con's are of these two different devices?
    Are there any online reviews/comparisons?

    Thanks,
    -BassKozz
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  2. Preservationist davideck's Avatar
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    A DVD Recorder in passthrough mode will provide TBC/Framestore functionality similar to an external TBC and may cost less and do more. The exception is that a DVD Recorder will not eliminate copy protection.

    Toshiba DVD Recorders make excellent TBC/Frame Synchronizers. Some include Proc Amp controls.
    Life is better when you focus on the signals instead of the noise.
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  3. Member FulciLives's Avatar
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    I have used neither ... but ...

    I read these forums as if I have no life (please stop laughing) and based on what I have read from various users ... both work but the AVT-8710 seems to perhaps work a bit better and is cheaper to boot.

    I would buy the AVT-8710 if it were me.

    Here is what I have put together from various comments:

    The TBC-1000 does very slight TBC "adjustment". Sometimes it doesn't "appear" to be doing much yet some say it has been a life saver at least in so far as passing through a "clean" signal whereas without it they had trouble with dropped frames when capturing. So it definately works. It seems to pass a very clear signal that is true to the original but does soften the image a bit.

    The AVT-8710 seems to be more rebust with the TBC "adjustment". It does appear to pass a very clear signal but it can be a bit "lighter" looking than the original. Apparently this is minor and some don't notice while other's adjust for it with the built-in proc amp controls (which allow for various adjustments such as brightness and contrast etc.). It also softens the image a bit (more or less the same as the TBC-1000).

    Sometimes both units will make things worse. Doesn't seem to happen all that often though. Also some people have both and have said that Tape A may get ****ed up when put through the TBC-1000 but look fine through the AVT-8710 but then Tape B may look fine through the TBC-1000 but look ****ed up through the AVT-8710. Often neither will help if the tape is really buggered up.

    Both will totally eliminate all forms of copy protection you may find on a pre-recorded video tape or DVD etc.

    Also some people feel that you should not use a TBC unless the source really "needs" the use of a TBC. For instance many will tell you that a TBC will soften a LaserDisc source without really doing much of anything else.

    Hope this helps!

    - John "FulciLives" Coleman
    "The eyes are the first thing that you have to destroy ... because they have seen too many bad things" - Lucio Fulci
    EXPLORE THE FILMS OF LUCIO FULCI - THE MAESTRO OF GORE
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  4. The AVT-8710 does indeed make things a hair brighter, but you only need to go 2 steps down on it's brightness to correct it.
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    BassKozz,

    A while back when I was trying to decide which tbc to get, I never did find a side by side comparison of the two. I just tried again, and still can't find one.

    The differences, as far as I can tell, are:
    1) The TBC-1000 has 4 video outputs, the AVT-8710 only has one.
    2) The TBC-1000 has audio inputs/outputs, the AVT-8710 doesn't
    3) The AVT-8710 has a built in proc amp that allows adjustment of brightness, contrast, color, tint, and sharpness. The TBC-1000 has no proc amp feature.
    4) The TBC-1000 costs about 50% more
    5) The TBC-1000 is quite a bit larger (144.7 cubic inches, 5.5 pounds) versus the AVT-8710 (25.9 cubic inches, 0.5 pound).

    I decided to try the AVT-8710 first, based on the proc amp and the cost, and then go to the TBC-1000 if I was dissatisfied. I was (and still am) so happy with the AVT-8710 that I never did try the TBC-1000.

    Since you specified that you wanted "to get the most out of my VHS (homevideo) to DVD conversion project", some of the features of the TBC-1000 (4 outputs, audio) might not be useful to you. The proc amp feature of the AVT-8710, on the other hand, comes in very handy.
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  6. The "advantage" of the 4 outputs can be used to output to various devices, to achieve simultaneous capture to see which works best.

    Other than that I have not seen any advantages of the tbc 1000 and I have the avt8710 as well.
    PAL/NTSC problem solver.
    USED TO BE A UK Equipment owner., NOW FINISHED WITH VHS CONVERSIONS-THANKS
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  7. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    The TBC-1000 is a small metal box and everything is solid.
    The AVT-8710 is a tiny plastic case and slightly less than solid.
    These two seemingly small differences make or break the units, due to heat.

    The TBC-1000 is built better, has more outputs, and does not overheat as quickly. The TBC-1000 usually does not heat up for at least 6 to 9 hours. And even then, it still behaves, heat does not hamper it's performance.

    The AVT-8710 is $100 cheaper, but it can only be used for so many hours in a day. The AVT-8710 is really touchy on the inputs/outputs, and when it starts to heat up (anywhere from 2 to 6 hours), it basically becomes worthless and can start to add noise into your video signal, usually diagonal chroma noise bars. It is not uncommon for the chroma channels to disappear, giving you a somewhat B&W or 1-chroma channel signal, if you jiggle the wires (remember, touch input/output connections) and you have to unplug everything and plug it in again (power cable too).

    If I go over and thump the 8710 with my finger, it'll freak out. I could probably throw the TBC-1000 against a wall, and the most damage it would do is a hole in the wall. I doubt the signal would be interrupted whatsoever.

    I use both of these TBCs daily, and as more time goes by, I almost regret the AVT-8710 sometimes. I mean, it's a good TBC, it performs its duties, but it's not without its quirks and aggravations. Casual users probably won't have any issues, but heavy users would likely want to pass over it for the TBC-1000.

    Basically, it all depends on how much money you have and how much you'll use it.

    Originally Posted by davideck
    A DVD Recorder in passthrough mode will provide TBC/Framestore functionality similar to an external TBC and may cost less and do more. The exception is that a DVD Recorder will not eliminate copy protection.
    I disagree. External TBCs eliminate both real and false copy protection, DVD recorders will vomit all over themselves and give you all sorts of errors and problems. For example, it is basically impossible to transfer my S-VHS-ET collection to DVD on ANY recorder, without one of the above mentioned standalone full-frame TBCs. Without the external TBC, the video would flicker, or give anti-copy error messages. The external TBCs can also fix certain jitter errors that line TBCs often miss.
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  8. Preservationist davideck's Avatar
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    DVD Recorders have built in full Frame Synchronizers (not just line TBCs), and as such will also have some inherent TBC performance. Different TBC/Frame Synchronizers perform differently. Some may "vomit" under certain situations that others can handle very well. The JVC and LiteOn DVD Recorders that I tried were particularly sensitive to Horizontal jitter errors and tended to vomit most often for me. On my tapes, the Toshiba DVD Recorder does a better job of timebase correction / frame synchronization than the JVC, the LiteOn, the Panasonic ES20, and my TBC-3000. This includes a test tape with significant timebase errors that I created for the sole purpose of comparing TBC performance.

    https://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?p=1482771#1482771

    You have praised the Panasonic ES10 DVD Recorder for its TBC/Frame Synchronizer capabilities with respect to some vertical distortions.

    The TBC/Frame Synchronizers built into DVD Recorders are not allowed to remove copy protection for obvious reasons. This may be an issue for some, but the DVD Recorders that I have used do not display a copy protection warning until you attempt to record. In this way, copy protected tapes can still be processed through the DVD Recorder's TBC/Frame Synchronizer and viewed on a monitor or captured to something like a Hauppauge PVR that ignores copy protection.

    It all depends on the source tapes, but I would rather spend my money on a DVD Recorder than an external TBC if it works as well or better for me.
    Life is better when you focus on the signals instead of the noise.
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    lordsmurf,

    You have my condolences. It sounds like your AVT-8710 is the tbc from...someplace hotter than Las Vegas (in the summer). If my AVT-8710 acted like that, I would be using a TBC-1000 now.

    When I first got my AVT-8710, it was in use 24 hours a day for two weeks (vacation), and I never saw even a hint of a problem. Ever since then, most weekends it's running constantly, also with no problems. It just went through another vacation-inspired-constant-use cycle, and still works as well as the day I got it. I just tried jiggling the wires, drumming my fingers on it, even shaking the stuffing out of it while I was capturing. When I was finished torturing it, I closely examined the captured video, and I can't see any problems whatsoever during the whole ordeal. In short, my experience with the AVT-8710 is that it is built like a rock, admittedly a rock in a plastic case, but still a rock.
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  10. I have the AVT-8710 and am happy with it. I really like the picture controls as well. Some of my older video tapes were kind of dark, so I was able to brighten them up easily. I believe I could have also adjusted the same controls within my capture software, but I liked being able to do it on the TBC unit. I've never used the Datavideo TBC1000.


    Darryl
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    Originally Posted by VegasBud
    lordsmurf,
    You have my condolences. It sounds like your AVT-8710 is the tbc from...someplace hotter than Las Vegas (in the summer). If my AVT-8710 acted like that, I would be using a TBC-1000 now.

    When I first got my AVT-8710, it was in use 24 hours a day for two weeks (vacation), and I never saw even a hint of a problem. Ever since then, most weekends it's running constantly, also with no problems. It just went through another vacation-inspired-constant-use cycle, and still works as well as the day I got it. I just tried jiggling the wires, drumming my fingers on it, even shaking the stuffing out of it while I was capturing. When I was finished torturing it, I closely examined the captured video, and I can't see any problems whatsoever during the whole ordeal. In short, my experience with the AVT-8710 is that it is built like a rock, admittedly a rock in a plastic case, but still a rock.
    Yeah, this is one of those random crappy things. Lots of people have experienced the same problems I do, some never see them, others are just ostriches or oblivious.

    If your AVT-8710 works rock solid with zero problems, count your blessings. It does happen.

    I never really saw how bad it was personally, until I started to record more than 6 hours daily for 2 weeks straight on a large project. It was a real pain in the ass to stop recording for 2 hours, blow a fan across everything to make it cool again, and then resume.

    You see similar things on hard drives and external optical drives that are housed in plastic rather than aluminum enclosures. I've honestly given some thought to ripping the TBC apart and putting it in a new case. But it may be more trouble that it's worth, and there's always the chance I'd screw it up more.
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    Originally Posted by lordsmurf
    Without the external TBC, the video would flicker, or give anti-copy error messages. The external TBCs can also fix certain jitter errors that line TBCs often miss.
    The thing I am most interested in correcting with a TBC is sudden speed changes and short time jumps in the material copied to dvd (as though suddenly several frames were missing, though in fact they aren't). This is intermittent, unpredictable and fairly often. But that is probably not what you meant by jitter ? I've seen this with quite a few xfers I've tried, from Beta to dvd. That seems to suggest a sync problem of some kind. The Sima CT-200 did little or nothing to correct this. (btw, it does have some very basic controls for color, brightness, and other things, but probably not as close to real Proc. Amp stuff as you get with the AVT-8710.)

    At the same time, I'm wondering how genuine or how bad the playback defect on the discs really is. Play the Beta-to-DVD transfers back on the Pioneer 520 that recorded them -- it all plays fine. (To be expected.) Play them on my main standalone player, and the problem is pretty bad. Play them on a circa-2001 LiteOn player I picked up cheap on Ebay -- very little or no problem. Play them on a full-featured JVC player from a couple years ago -- haven't seen the problem, but I need to play more of these discs on it to be sure. This tells me that the ability of players to cope with any such xfer defects must vary a lot. Hopefully, using an ext. TBC for future xfers will get rid of it entirely. If there is a real xfer defect, I suppose it is embedded in the xfer for good, and from that point on cannot be removed. I'd rather not have to redo the 25 discs I've already transferred.
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  13. Thanks for the posts everyone, I bought the AVToolbox AVT-8710. It works great for my needs
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    Hello everyone. I'm new to this forum, and I have been burning DVD's for less than a year. I consider myself a semi-newbie: I'm not totally new to this activity, but I don't have a great deal of video knowledge either.

    I know that I am joining this discussion late, but I feel I must add my 2 cents for those who are looking for a time base corrector and are considering the AVT-8710.

    Based on my experience, the AVT-8710 works well, but it is not a durable piece of equipment. When I bought it last December, and for a few months afterward, it worked just fine. During the summer, however I noticed diagonal lines across the picture, the "diagonal chroma noise bars" described in lordsmurf's post. This problem has persisted. The bars don't disappear when the box cools off. For me, this makes the box unusable. Why add noise to already noisy videos? (See image)

    For anyone who is considering buying the AVT-8710, keep in mind that it is not sturdily built, nor is it suitable for heavy use. Some here will disagree because they haven't had any problems with it. But keep in mind that you are taking your chances. It may work for you, but it may not. I regret the purchase and consider it to be a waste of $200. I'll be replacing it with the DataVideo TBC-1000.

    Regards,
    Marc

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  15. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    That looks more like herringbone than chroma, but being the colors they are, hard to tell from that image. You may want to troubleshoot power cleaning and grounding options for that, just in case it's actually herringbone.
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    I agree with lordsmurf's post about the AVT-8710 being rather fragile,
    tho not being an extreme user, I've never had it overheat on me.
    The connections can be a little unstable on mine too.
    I've had it a while now, and have learned to live with it's little Quirks.

    All that being said, I don't regret the purchase...
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    I am considering purchasing either T-1000 or AVT-8710 to restore my near 20 year old Beta tapes. You guys have a lot of experience in these products. My question is - can these TBC really work with my old tapes? Some of my tapes during normal playback show no picture (pass through DVD recorder and TV was just blue screen) but when I fast forward it, I can see picture. So the video is still there. It just that the sync signal is bad or missing, I think. That's why I hope one of these TBC can help bring the picture back. Do you think it will work in my case?
    Thanks.
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    Very possible that it would fix your issue, yes.
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    Originally Posted by lordsmurf
    Very possible that it would fix your issue, yes.
    Thanks for the encouraging news.
    I also posted the similar question in the Restoration fourm. The other expert replied that it's my VCR couldn't sync with the tape and no video output then. If that's the case, TBC won't help. So now I am confused.
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    I've been converting a lot of old Betamax tapes also.

    I've noticed that quite often, some of the old tapes (esp the cheaper brands)
    are very prone to oxide flaking....which can clog one, if not both heads.
    I'd suggest a good head cleaning as the first action.
    I usually use a "wet" cleaner cassette... but sometimes I have to resort to
    one of the "dry" abrasive units,
    If that fails, If I'm too lazy to open it up to clean...I just run a unvalued tape
    in slo-motion and hope the tape will eventually scrape the heads clean. And sometimes it
    does.

    ps. just curious....is the picture viewable when in pause mode?

    I'm also a happy user of the AVT-8710.
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    Originally Posted by mikel
    I've been converting a lot of old Betamax tapes also.

    I've noticed that quite often, some of the old tapes (esp the cheaper brands)
    are very prone to oxide flaking....which can clog one, if not both heads.
    I'd suggest a good head cleaning as the first action.
    I usually use a "wet" cleaner cassette... but sometimes I have to resort to
    one of the "dry" abrasive units,
    If that fails, If I'm too lazy to open it up to clean...I just run a unvalued tape
    in slo-motion and hope the tape will eventually scrape the heads clean. And sometimes it
    does.

    ps. just curious....is the picture viewable when in pause mode?

    I'm also a happy user of the AVT-8710.
    Good to know a pal betamax fan. I have cleaned the heads using the dry cleaning tape and it shows an image on the screen saying the heads have been cleaned. I have also opened up the cover and cleaned the tape path. YES, in pause mode I can view the picture. But of course the picture is not clear. It's not a 4-head machine. As I said, these sections of tape where in normal play mode not viewable, in reverse and fast forward and pause mode picture is viewable. Does that mean the VCR head is clogged and thus no video output? Or just the vertical sync is bad and VCR can't track the tape? I was hoping AVT-8710 can restore the sync for me.

    Thanks,
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    In my experience.... it sounds like a badly clogged head.
    If you can see the video text on the cleaning cassette, that indicates
    that the heads should be OK.(at least right then)
    I suggest that after the next cleaning, try playing another tape. (not the problem one.)

    It could be that the one tape is SO flakey that it's cloging the heads up instantiously.

    You might also try to wind to another section of the problem tape, and start it up there.

    Hope this helps
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    Originally Posted by hschen
    It's not a 4-head machine. As I said, these sections of tape where in normal play mode not viewable, in reverse and fast forward and pause mode picture is viewable. Does that mean the VCR head is clogged and thus no video output? Or just the vertical sync is bad and VCR can't track the tape? I was hoping AVT-8710 can restore the sync for me.
    It might be a control track problem. Did you clean the Control Track Head when you cleaned the tape path? Does adjusting the manual tracking have any effect?

    If this is a 2-Head VCR and you can see an image in search, then I would not suspect a clogged head.

    In any event, if the VCR output is defaulting to blue/black screen during playback, then an external TBC will not help.
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    Originally Posted by davideck
    Originally Posted by hschen
    It's not a 4-head machine. As I said, these sections of tape where in normal play mode not viewable, in reverse and fast forward and pause mode picture is viewable. Does that mean the VCR head is clogged and thus no video output? Or just the vertical sync is bad and VCR can't track the tape? I was hoping AVT-8710 can restore the sync for me.
    It might be a control track problem. Did you clean the Control Track Head when you cleaned the tape path? Does adjusting the manual tracking have any effect?

    If this is a 2-Head VCR and you can see an image in search, then I would not suspect a clogged head.

    In any event, if the VCR output is defaulting to blue/black screen during playback, then an external TBC will not help.
    Thanks for helping. I don't know where is the control track head? I need to go to MrBetamax.com to find out. But then again, if control track head is clogged or dirty, how come most of my old tapes work fine and have near perfect picture and just a few don't.
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    I'm still not clear if the VCR is the problem, or the device intercepting the video signal.
    How does the VCR tape look plugged directly into the tv?
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    Originally Posted by lordsmurf
    I'm still not clear if the VCR is the problem, or the device intercepting the video signal.
    How does the VCR tape look plugged directly into the tv?
    Excellent question. Let me try it and report back to you guys.
    Thanks a lot.
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    Originally Posted by lordsmurf
    I'm still not clear if the VCR is the problem, or the device intercepting the video signal.
    How does the VCR tape look plugged directly into the tv?
    I did the experiment - connecting Superbeta VCR to TV directly without going through DVD recorder. The result was worse than going through DVD recorder. Apparently TV's tolerance for bad video is not as good as DVD recorder. Perhaps your statement of DVD recorder has a limited function of TBC is correct. Without DVD recorder intercepting the signal, even fast forwarding can't see the picture, only a few frames showed up when I stop searching. So it seems DVD recorder does help a little. A TBC should help a lot, I wish. But I don't want to spend $220 to find out it won't.
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    That would point to the VCR as the culprit, not the signal itself.
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    Originally Posted by lordsmurf
    That would point to the VCR as the culprit, not the signal itself.
    My biggest worry was that when TV shows no picture means VCR does not output video. Then a TBC won't do nothing. But the experiment indicated that may not be the case. Even though TV shows no picture, VCR probably does output video, just bad quality that TV can't handle at all. While DVD recorder is a little better in accepting bad signal and that's why I can see picture in search mode with DVD recorder but not with TV directly. What do you think?

    If VCR does not send signal out when it can't track the tape, what do you suggest I do? If it's a cleaning issue, most of my old beta tapes plays beautifully. What else?
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    I still say try another VCR. Not easy, I know. But it needs to be done.
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