Overall quality lacking - capture the issue?

[StephenBishop]

Some time ago I posted about some issues I was having converting some old PAL tapes to DVD. For quite some time I have been using an international VHS player made by Samsung to play the tapes, but as everyone knows tapes deteriorate over time and I wanted to put the stuff on DVD to preserve to it.

Thanks to the kindly assistance of a few people on this forum I was able to solve a few issues with my computer’s ability to capture the video footage for processing and conversion, but I have to admit that in a number of respects I’m a little dissatisfied with the final results, They’re certainly acceptable, but I would have hoped for better, and I’m wondering if there’s a weak link in the processing chain or whether my skills need fine tuning.

Taking the advice of others I have used the approach of saving the material in AVI format via a fairly basic but well-reviewed TV@nywhere capture card. The one real fault with the card is that you can’t actually capture in AVI via the card’s own software, but need to use another program (in my case ‘Showbiz’) in order to do the job. There's a weakness though, in that it limits AVI capture to 352 x 240 resolution. Not having anything else to go by in my experience I’m not sure just how limiting this is. By the time I finish the transfer, I usually have used up about 1GB of space for every 3 minutes of footage.

I them use TMPGE to convert the file over, generally limiting myself to the minimal default settings for noise reduction to clean things up when necessary.

By the time I finish with the end product on a DVD, it’s generally acceptable, as already mentioned, but it generally seems to lack a bit in sharpness and tends to have a kind of subtle flickering along hard edges, such as titles or straight edges, particularly on the horizontal plane. In shadowy areas as well you tend to notice a slight flickering backwards and forwards between subtle shades of the same color.

Personally I think it’s at the capture stage, as I can notice the lack of clarity while I’m recording the material onto my hard disk via ‘Showbiz’, so it’s either the program itself that’s at fault, or the capture card. Is the TV@nywhere card perhaps just to weak on the AVI front, particularly as it’s limited to 352 x 240 resolution? Or/and is part of the problem that the conversion from 352 x 240 AVI to Mpeg 720 x 480 is also causing the deterioration in quality?

I never expected to get a crystal clear conversion to DVD, but I was at least hoping to get reasonably close, and if there’s a way I could improve things I’d certainly like to give it a try. If I need to upgrade significantly for a capture card I’ll do it, but I’d like to at least be certain before I do that this is the area where I’m having the problem.

Any ideas anyone?

Cheers………Stephen

PS – Yes, I do keep the tape heads very clean.

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TV@nywhere TV-tuner card

[David K]

Yes the 352 x 240 capture is the problem. That is VCD quality resolution and so you're not getting all the detail you could from your VHS tapes. When you blow up the resolution later (to DVD rez) you've already lost the detail (and that's why the horizontal lines look blurry).

The easiest way to convert your tapes is to get a DVD recorder (now that they're so cheap). I understand you're converting PAL. If you're in a PAL country then no problem. If you're living in a NTSC country, that makes it trickier, but I think at least some DVD Recorders will accept both NTSC and PAL video imput.

[davideck]

352 x 240 is definitely a factor.

Anything less than 720 x 480 will tend to noticeably limit the preservation of detail.

[edDV]

352x240 is a huge problem (dropping half the vertical resolution + half the motion resolution) but what are you talking about with "AVI" format? I hope it is uncompressed, and you aren't encoding on the fly to divx or something.

If so, you are at the extreme low end of bottom fishing.

Something to realize, the worse the source (e.g. VHS) the less it can be compressed. If this material is important to you, start with an uncompressed capture and experiment to find how much compression you can stand using various codecs.

Something else to understand, VHS is interlaced and you can make a MPeg2 interlace DVD preserving full vertical and motion resolution. Deinterlacing VHS is highly destructive* if a TV is ever going to be the target.

Advanced exceptions:
1. If you can pull off IVTC properly from film source material.
2. If you can live with 352x240 for computer only display at half motion resolution. This is usually done when compression is the target at the expense of quality.

[StephenBishop]

Hi again,
Well, I went ahead and conducted a test after I wrote, using the same 54 seconds of video on each test. I did the usual and saved the material in AVI at 352 x 240 resolution that's forced upon me, then used the stock standard MSI software that came with my TV@nywhere capture card to save the same section of footage in Mpeg with a 720 x 480 resolution. The latter definitely returned a much better and sharper image, even though the Mpeg file was infinitesimally smaller than the AVI file.

I have been told before that the best results are obtained by saving in uncompressed form, which is why I was told to stick with AVI, but obviously in this case, because of the limitation imposed on me by the card, it seems I’m better off saving in Mpeg, wouldn’t you say? At least until I can upgrade to a suitable card that allows me to save in AVI with a 720 x 480 resolution?

Only problem now is how do I work this to my advantage? In order to make the file acceptable to TMPGE Author I have to process the file with TMPGEnc to reduce the bitrate to acceptable levels, but it’s painfully slow, twice as slow as it takes to convert an AVI file. 10 minutes of AVI takes me about 20 – 30 minutes to convert. The same file in Mpeg form takes about 40 – 60 minutes.

As the VHS is already being saved into Mpeg format, why is it not being saved in an Mpeg format compatible with DVD output? In order to try and figure out where the differences lay, I actually tried getting TMPGE Author to process the Mpeg file I’d saved from my test video capture, but it spat out an error message telling me the following -

‘The combined bitrate of the video and audio of clip is 9800kbps is exceeding the upper limit for a standard DVD.

The current bitrate is 9800 kbps for video, 224 kbps for audio, and 10024kbps combined. It is necessary with a combined bitrate of less than 9.848Mbps (9848kbps).

With a bitrate higher than 9.8Mbps it becomes a nonstandard DVD, and we cannot guarantee that this will play correctly in a DVD player.

Please also make sure that the combined bitrate for the captured clip is within the limit.’

It seems to me that if I could get the bitrate down below the acceptable level to start with when I’m saving the incoming VHS source I could skip the conversion with TMPGE altogether and save an enormous amount of time. But I must be missing something, because try as I might I can’t reduce it no matter what I do with the various controls with the MSI software. It allows me to make adjustments, and it even allows me to create a custom profile, so that I can keep the 720 x 480 resolution and adjust the bitrates for audio and video, but while it certainly does bring the audio bitrate down, every time I try and process a test file with TMPGE author I still get the same error message showing that the video bitrate remains the same – even though I’ve adjusted the custom profile for saving to as low as 2,000 kbps. I just don’t get it.

In case someone can read something into this that I can’t, here’s the MSI software’s standard profile for saving at 720 x 480 Resolution –


[NTSC DVD]
Format: MPEG-2

Audio:
Format: MPEG-1 Layer II
Sampling Rate: 48.0 kHz 16-bit Stereo
Bit Rate: 224 KBits/sec

Video:
Size: 720x480
Frame Rate: 29.97 frames/sec
Bit Rate: 6400 KBits/sec

Total:
Bit Rate: 6883 KBits/sec
File split size : 4063 MBytes.


And this is the one I created. As I said, I’ve tried adjusting the bit rate up and down and it seems to make no difference in terms of compatibility to the TMPGE authoring program.

[Test 1]
Format: MPEG-2

Audio:
Format: MPEG-1 Layer II
Sampling Rate: 44.1 kHz 16-bit Stereo
Bit Rate: 224 KBits/sec

Video:
Size: 720x480
Frame Rate: 29.97 frames/sec
Bit Rate: 4000 KBits/sec

Total:
Bit Rate: 4387 KBits/sec
File split size : 4063 MBytes.

Anybody have any ideas or pointers?

Thanks.

[bobkart]

I've gotten that error a few times with TMPGEnc and it was always a false alarm.

Just FYI, I get very high-quality captures of VHS material without the use of a capture card. Unless you count a FireWire card and an ADS API-555: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814255006&ATT=14-255-006&CMP=OTC-d3alt1me

All you need is WMM or some other DV capture application, and TMPGEnc can do the rest. Yes, TMPGEnc takes a while to render high-quality MPEG, but that's the nature of software encoding.

The suggestion to use a DVD Recorder is also a good one, I have a couple of them and copying VHS to DVD that way is about as easy as it gets.

[victoriabears]

Oh yes I've been at this "game" for over 2 years, and a good vcr(JVC/sharp) a TBC and a dvd recorder are way the easiest, computer capture has so many variables.

Yes if you have avery special project capturing to avi and encoding is best but not for most vhs stuff.

I obtained a jvc 100s dvd recorder from the UK and it is wonderful. all the North American dvd recorders that can record in pal are not great, and it is better to get your vhs pal to dvd pal and then get a Oppo dvd player to play them on your ntsc tv, rather than converting the capture-yukky messy.

[Wile_E]

You can have up to 10080kb/s bitrate with video/audio combined. TMPGEnc is just trying to be safe, and tell you to use lower bitrate. Just ignore the error, and tell it to continue.

[StephenBishop]

Hi again,
Those who told me to ignore the error message on TMPGE Author were spot on. I kept looking at it last night and thinking it made no sense, as the figures added up corectly. So I just figured software being software I was encountering a glitch in the program, told Author to ignore the error message, and went ahead and converted & burnt a sample disc even though the program told me it wouldn't comply with normal requirements for a DVD. It came out fine!

So the way things stand, I can bypass TMPGEnc for encoding by compressing the incoming video stream directly into Mpeg 2 at 720x480 Res., than just send it along to Author for conversion/ burning. The quality is definately better than the 352x240 AVI files I was saving before and converting with TMPGEnc, and I'm saving myself a ton of time by skipping one of the processes.

As I see it - and I welcome anyone's opinion on the matter - until I get a new capture card that permits me to save in AVI at 720x480 Resolution this is the way for me to go, perhaps using TMPGEnc on the odd file I've saved that could use it's filtering processes for cleaning up noise. Otherwise I can just bypass it until I get a new card. Yes?

One last point - and I know I'm a little off topic - for those who mentioned standalone DVD player/burners from places like Best Buy or Circut city, having never seen or played around with one I was curious. Do they have some way of automatically adjusting the bit-rate so that you can save an overlong project, or can you enter it manually? I mean, if you want to set the thing to burn on disc the entire Superbowl while you're out fishing, can you set it so that the whole thing will be there when you come home?

Finally, as far as VHS players that can play the various international formats, in my opinion there isn't much better around than the Samsung unit I've got. It can play anything other than France's Secam L and does it well. It's probably the last of it's kind, given that VHS is being phased out and there'll be little demand at all for such highly specialized units in the future. It's been a Godsend to us in a number of ways, not least being the way friends from Australia can send along major sporting events on tape that I can't get on cable over here in the States.

Thanks very much to all the people who contributed their responses to me questions. It certainly helped clarify things for me.

Stephen

[bobkart]

One last point - and I know I'm a little off topic - for those who mentioned standalone DVD player/burners from places like Best Buy or Circut city, having never seen or played around with one I was curious. Do they have some way of automatically adjusting the bit-rate so that you can save an overlong project, or can you enter it manually? I mean, if you want to set the thing to burn on disc the entire Superbowl while you're out fishing, can you set it so that the whole thing will be there when you come home?

Yes all those kinds of things are quite straightforward with any halfway-decent DVD Recorder, here's the Forum I frequent: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=106

[RoopeT]

If you can capture 720x480 resolution mpg, surely you can capture that resolution avi too ... you just need to find software that supports your card better than the software (and possibly drivers for your card) you've been using for avi captures this far. Unfortunately I'm unfamiliar with your card so I can't recommend any software ... I personally always used VirtualDubSynch with my analog capture card, but I don't know if your card/drivers are supported. VirtualVCR might be an alternative, as I've seen many people saying they're happy with it.

Apparently your mpeg capturing software writes incorrect bitrate info onto the mpeg file header ... this can be corrected by demultiplexing (separating video and audio) the mpg and applying Restream onto the demultiplexed video stream. If ignoring TMPGEnc DVDAuthor error message works for you, there probably no need to do this (But I remember one of my friends claimed he had stuttering playback if he just ignored the message)

[bobkart]

I suspect the mistake is on the TMPGEnc DVD Author side though. I've seen it get the MPEG bitrates of files I've fed it wrong on several occasions.

[StephenBishop]

Hi again,
To RoopteT.

This is the information I picked up when I went hunting around for information on the limitation imposed on me in AVI. It was elsewhere on this site under the section dealing with tuner cards.

https://www.videohelp.com/capturecards.php?CaptureCardRead=192#comments

Half way down were the following comments made in 2003 from someone called Occams razor -

Pros:
- MSI PVS software captures well to MPEG-1 and MPEG-2. (PVS is rebadged WinDVR.)
- Timeshifting and channel preview are neat (when they work).
- Unedited VCD recordings can be burned straight to CD with Nero. If you edit, though, Nero will likely not accept it as VCD without additional work (see below).
- Decent video quality.

Cons:
- Card is NOT stereo. It also will never BE stereo - MSI used the wrong chip and it doesn't support NTSC stereo decoding.
- PVS does NOT capture to AVI/MPEG-4.
- PVS does NOT allow editing of any kind. MPEG editors are hard to find, too.
- PVS software is clunky and not terribly smart. It often interrupts DVD playback or other computer tasks because it doesn't start up in the background like a polite program should.
- Tuner can not be operated by programs other than bundled PVS (such as VirtualDub).
- Other capture programs (such as VirtualDub) that do capture to AVI are limited to 320x240.
- When recording from composite/S-VHS inputs, cable tuner sound (if connected) will be overlaid on top of composite sound. In other words the card isn't smart enough to switch sound sources properly. (Fix by tuning to a blank channel first.)
- Sound glitches (blips) in recording when using MPEG-2 SVCD format.
- Remote control didn't work when XP SP1 installed.
- MSI support is slow in releasing fixes - remote control patch took several months.

So, in practical terms, those looking to record straight to AVI will be disappointed by the mono sound and 320x240 resolution. Plus AVI capture can't tune, making automatic recording impossible. I wanted to record to AVI, use Virtualdub to edit and save, and burn to CD, but I can't. I also wanted to create VCDs for playing in a standalone player, but that is also cumbersome.

He seemed to know more about it than me, so I took his word for it!

As it seems I'll have to eventually buy a new card to get the AVI facilty I need at 720x480 resolution, I'd be open to any suggestions for a good card that isn't outrageously priced.

Cheers........Stephen

[bobkart]

So the FireWire mechanism I outlined will not work for you? I guess I'm curious why not. It completely eliminates all the complexities/shortcomings/limitations in you just described.

[StephenBishop]

Hi Bobkart

No, it looks interesting enough. Though I didn't get into it in too much detail, it seemed that there were specific system requirements that I don't have onboard my computer. I could be wrong of course, but that's they way I read it when I followed your link.

Cheers.......Stephen

[StephenBishop]

Hi again Bobkart.

Just an added note to the above. These remarks are what concerned me on the link you gave me -

It can capture HD programming, but *only* in 480i. Not very fun when you consider that game systems only put out 480p, 720p, and 1080p. Other than that, very good product..If you buy this, you better be sure to have plenty of hard drive space. Even my 1.5TB array is getting eaten up fast by the raw footage........ Adobe needs a Processor that supports SSE3 set, which was not clearly stated in any literature 2. The Component-IN doesn't capture any signal from my DVR stb or progressive DVD player. 3. Somewhat fuzzy with S-Video input and not true 480p (720x480) resolution capture.

1) I only have a 200 GB HD on board with an external 200 GB HD for back purposes. The comment about how much room the footage takes up concerned me. I'm assuiming that the suggestions mean that the capture mode for video with this takes up considerably more space than AVI?

2) I have no idea if I have a processor on board that supports the SSE3 set mentioned. I don't even know what that means!

3) The HD capture limitations had me scratching my head. Though I don't know what the limitations mean for HD, I just wondered if I might be buying something that would end up having a redundancy built in that I'd regret later, like the AVI limitation on my present card.

4) As I use S-video for loading up stuff from my older Hi-8 camera for conversion and burning to DVD I was concerned by the comment made about the fuzziness.

Technical issues aside, I thought that if I have to buy a new HD together with the unit you mentioned, it didn't seem that cost effective. maybe the guy who made the comment just stores a lot of stuff on his drives rather than process them out and move onto the next project? All things being equal I just thought it might be less trouble and more cost effective to just get a new capture card instead to solve my AVI situation.

Cheers.......Stephen

[bobkart]

One hour of DV-AVI video captured via FireWire will require 13GB of hard disc space. So 200GB would seem to be plenty (about 15 hours worth). Once captured, you would render it as MPEG2 and no longer need the original DV-AVI.

Other than a FireWire capability on your PC, I'm not aware of any other requirements (besides enough disc space).

There are no analog HD capture capabilities out there (that I'm aware of), short of custom systems. So the lack of HD-capturing capability by going this route is no different than you will find using any video capture card out there.

I get no "fuzziness" via S-Video input, or even Composite Video input. The ADS box even supports Component Video input, which I have used with great results.

And if you have a digital camcorder, and it supports analog pass-through, you don't even need the ADS box, just FireWire capability on your PC and you're good to go. It really is a very simple way to capture video, and the results are about as good as you're going to get.

Anyway, no I'm not an ADS salesman, it just seems like you could save yourself a lot of headaches and wondering about results of questionable quality by going this route. That and a few DVD Recorders are all I use for analog video capture nowadays.

[StephenBishop]

Bobkart.
Okay. thanks for the update. Seems like it taks up about as much room as an AVI file, so yes, it shouldn't be a problem.

Thannks.......Stephen