21:9 (Anamorphic Widescreen 16:9) Is it possible with Xvid?

[Cunhambebe]

640x480 = 4:3

640x480 (letterboxed to 640x360) = 16:9 letterboxed or;
640x360 = 16:9 full widescreen

Is it possible to render anamorphic Xvid such as 21:9 (16:9 anamorphic?) PC/TV compatible? Some friends told me to render the file this way:

640x480 (letterboxed to 640x272) = 21:9 (I know it works - what I don't know if the image is really letterboxed or you can PAN/SCAN with both 4:3 and 16:9 TVs);

*******************
How about this for 21:9?

640x360 (letterboxed to 640x272)?
640x272 full widescreen (?) - I guess this would be PAN/SCAN and ruin the image on regular 4:3 screens. Am I right? Will it work for a plasma or LCD widescreen? Thanks in advance.

[celtic_druid]

Sure, you can do anamorphic with XviD.
ie.
Take a 720x576, crop 72 pixels top/bottom and encode, setting the PAR accordingly so it resizes to 1024x432 on playback.

[manono]

Hi-

I didn't understand most of that, but I think you're making it more difficult than it really is. First, for AVI, I prefer NOT to talk about 4:3, 16:9 or 21:9. Generally you don't talk about DAR (4:3 or 16:9) as you do when discussing DVD DARs. AVIs are generally 1:1, especially when intending to play them on standalone DVD/MPEG-4 players. So, I much prefer to discuss 1.33:1, 1.78:1 or 2.35:1. Less confusion, in my opinion.

So, are you asking if a 2.35:1, 640x272 AVI will be displayed properly on both a 4:3 TV set and on a 16:9 TV set? The answer's yes, if your player is any good at all, and you have it set up correctly. Assuming you set it up correctly, it'll add the right amount of black bars so that the movie displays with the right Aspect Ratio. Some MPEG-4 players (mostly those with the ESS chipsets) don't display 2.35:1 movies properly on widescreen TV sets. They stretch it to fill the entire screen, making everyone look tall and thin. Those players should be tossed into the nearest trash can, in my opinion. If you insist on keeping it, your only recourse is to add black bars yourself, during the encode, to make it really 1.78:1.

Edit: celtic_druid, while it's certainly possible to create an anamorphic XviD, most standalone DVD/MPEG-4 players won't recognize the flag and won't resize it properly, but only scale it. Unless I misunderstood both you and what Cunhambebe was asking. Very possible.

[Cunhambebe]

celtic_druid...
Thanks for your EZ explantion.... :P lol

Manono:

I think you're making it more difficult than it really is

-You're right. I'm a Lawyer!

So, are you asking if a 2.35:1, 640x272 AVI will be displayed properly on both a 4:3 TV set and on a 6:9 TV set? The answer's yes

-Thanks for this straightforward answer!!!
Now, how about encoding at 640x480 letterboxed to 640x272 or 640x360 letterboxed to 640x272? Will it work too?
Will I be able to choose to show the video letterboxed and squeezed?

Thanks so much to u both!

[celtic_druid]

Ok, so we both agree that ESS based players are crap. What does that leave? Any MTK based player should handle non 1:1 PAR's fine. Mine does.

[manono]

Really, celtic_druid? Mine's MTK. Maybe I should give that a try sometime. Actually, I preferred my old Sigma Designs set, before it broke. It played just about any quantization matrix I threw at it. Some of the ones that used to play fine, now play with the screwy colors on my MTK set.

Sorry, Cunhambebe, but again I don't understand. If you're asking about adding black bars to a 640x272 video to make it 640x480, I'd ask in return, why would you want to.

[Cunhambebe]

Thanks for replying...

If you're asking about adding black bars to a 640x272 video to make it 640x480, I'd ask in return, why would you want to.

-I guess it's the contrary; 640x360 with black bars showing 640x272 Or as you wish 640x480 with black bars showing 640x272

-Why do I ask this? Because someone around here told me to do so. He told me to encode Xvid/Divx at higher aspect ratios 2.35:1 (21:9) than 4:3 (1.33:1) and 16:9 (1.78:1) this way (640x480 letterboxed to 640x272)..... So, should I keep it 640x272???

[manono]

I can give you one good reason not to add black bars to turn a 640x272 video into 640x480, and that is it won't play at max size on a widescreen TV set. Instead, the active video will be sitting in the middle of the screen with big black bars on all 4 sides. You'll have to use a zoom to get the video to fill the screen from right to left, and zooming is never a good idea, if you can avoid it.

I hate to contradict any advice you may have been given, but I thought it was just basic practice to crop away the black bars. I can't really understand why anyone would actually advise keeping or adding them, UNLESS it's to make up for the deficiencies of a player. But you haven't said that's the case with your player. If my AVIs are fullscreen 1.33:1 512x384, or 1.85:1 640x352 (or thereabouts), or 2.35:1 640x272, they all play just fine on both my widescreen and regular old 4:3 TV set. All have had all black bars completely cropped away. Black bars are added back by the player whereever necessary for both TV sets so that the videos play with the proper aspect ratio.

But maybe I'm misunderstanding. Maybe someone else can answer better.

[Cunhambebe]

Thanks again for replying manono

I can give you one good reason not to add black bars to turn a 640x272 ...the active video will be sitting in the middle of the screen with big black bars on all 4 sides. You'll have to use a zoom to get the video to fill the screen from right to left, and zooming is never a good idea, if you can avoid it.

-thanks, really!

I hate to contradict any advice you may have been given...

-At least I was very ethical and didn't say who he was lol

..but I thought it was just basic practice to crop away the black bars. I can't really understand why anyone would actually advise keeping or adding them, UNLESS it's to make up for the deficiencies of a player....

-Interesting....

But you haven't said that's the case with your player.

-Sorry, but my target is compatibility... I'm planning to share my own Lightwave renders (3D sequences) on the web.

BTW, here's an example:
http://rapidshare.de/files/26293538/blade_sao_paulo.avi.html

If my AVIs are fullscreen 1.33:1 512x384, or 1.85:1 640x352 (or therabouts), or 2.35:1 640x272, they all play just fine on both my widescreen and regular old 4:3 TV set. All have had all black bars completely cropped away. Black bars are added back by the player whereever necessary for both TV sets so that the videos play with the proper aspect ratio.

-That's a good and very straightforward explantion, thanks a lot!

Two observations, though:
1.when you say 1.33.1 at 512x384, I use 640x480 instead. I know u can use smaller sizes as this one 512x384...but do they show well, is there good quality???
2. I really wonder what aspect ratio this one is: 1.85:1 640x352 (or therabouts). Does it correspond to 720x480?
Many thanks manono
[/quote]

[Cornucopia]

Cunhambebe knows that it was I who "gave him that advice".
But that's not exactly the advice I gave.

IIRC, I said "try these out for size, depending upon your player's chipset....A, B, C, D...", or something of the sort.

I am in agreement with manono, though I think he said it better than me. However, it sounds like you still aren't quite getting it.

Let's start with a 720x480 hollywood movie in 2.35:1 AR that you want to backup to Xvid.

2.35:1 cannot be encoded DIRECTLY on a DVD-Video disc, as DVD-Video specs only allow for 4:3 (aka 1.33:1) or 16:9 (aka 1.78:1), so a GOOD hollywood encoding company is going to do one of 2 different ways:

1. Author a disc as set for 4:3, but using only the center ~720x272 pixels for the film, adding 104 pixels of black to top and 104 to bottom to fill out the 720x480 encoded image. This will be played back VERY letterboxed on all displays--computer or video (with the exception of 16:9 Widescreen TV's which are -incorrectly- set to zoom). Not very efficient encoding.

2. Author a disc as set for 16:9, using only the center ~720x368 pixels for the film, adding 56 pixels of black to top and 56 to bottom to fill out the 720x480 encoded image. This will be played back VERY letterboxed on 4:3 displays, and a tiny bit letterboxed on 16:9 displays (assuming correct settings). Much more efficient with the encoding.

SO the choices for going to Xvid are these:

1. Keep encoded AR as is, saving same 720x480 image+letterboxing, and setting the DAR in Xvid to match (but with NTSC PAR).
2. Crop the lettterboxing to the 16x9 dimensions (leaving just some minor letterboxing) and setting the DAR to 16:9 (but with NTSC PAR).
3. Crop out the letterboxing completely, down to the 2.35:1 image only, and setting the DAR to 2.35:1 (but with NTSC PAR).
4. #1 but resizing the horizontal and setting the PAR to 1:1
5. #2 but resizing the horizontal (to 640) and setting the PAR to 1:1
6. #3 but resizing the horizontal (to 640) and setting the PAR to 1:1

Which way to do this will again be determined by software vs. hardware, chipset & player algorithm capabilities, intended display, etc.

The phrase to remember here is "try these out and see which works best for you"...

Scott

[manono]

1.when you say 1.33.1 at 512x384, I use 640x480 instead. I know u can use smaller sizes as this one 512x384...but do they show well, is there good quality???

Use whatever you want. They have the same ratio, 512x384, 576x432, 640x480. They're all 1.33:1 and will fill a 4:3 TV and play on a 16:9 TV with pillar bars.

2. I really wonder what aspect ratio this one is: 1.85:1 640x352 (or therabouts). Does it correspond to 720x480?

1.85:1 is quite a common movie ratio, maybe the most common these days. 640x352 is one of the AVI resolution equivalents. It's 1.82:1, which is the closest Mod16 640 Width resolution.

http://www.imdb.com/SearchRatios?1.85%20:%201

There are thousands of movies using that ratio.

Does it correspond to 720x480? What's that mean? All NTSC DVDs are 720x480. But the actual movie AR contained within that 720x480 1.5:1 resolution can be just about anything; 1.33:1, 1.66:1, 1.85:1, 2.35:1, 2.55:1, 2.76:1 and many others. All NTSC DVDs are either 4:3 or 16:9 and get resized by the player.The AVIs we've been discussing are 1:1 and just get scaled. There's a distinction there. Cornucopia explained this pretty thoroughly just above.

[Cunhambebe]

But that's not exactly the advice I gave.

Oh my! Scott! Hey Scott! Hope you don't get mad with me! lol lol Maybe I haven't put it right.
-Where do I go here?????

IIRC, I said "try these out for size, depending upon your player's chipset....A, B, C, D...", or something of the sort.

-My first target is sharing my own Lightwave videos on the web as the one above (link) = compatibility. Anyway, I'd like to thank both of you again for the explanations. Thank you very much, really.

[Cornucopia]

De nada,

I kind of understood that you still had some unsolved questions, I just expected you to continue the PM thread, that's all...

Is it getting any clearer?

Scott

[Cunhambebe]

Thanks for replying, Scott.
First of all, sorry for the late reply. Had some work to do.

just expected you to continue the PM thread, that's all...

-I'm going to do it.

Is it getting any clearer?

-No. lol. I'm making some experiments here (for your desperation) . I'll post a reply soon. Thanks to all.

BTW, before continuing with Xvid, I would like to ask a few questions concerning DAR (Display Aspect Ratio) for the TV PAR (Pixel Aspect Ratio).

1)PC PAR is 1:1... this is OK

-What's the proportion of the TV PAR 720x480? - (I already know that 0,9091 is the size of the pixel for regular NTSC 4:3 and 1,2121 is the size of the pixel for NTSC Widescreen).
-Would it be 1.33:1 for 4:3 and 1.78:1 for Widescreen? I guess so. Please correct me if I'm wrong... thanks.

2) I also know that 4:3 (1.33:1) has a DAR of 720x480, full resolution. This is OK.

3) Now I would like to know the size of the display area of a 16:9 video for TV PAR (cropping the black bars)? It's 720x380something? - I want to convert a 4:3 video to 16:9 (my way). I'm going to crop the edges with VD's null transform and resize it to 16:9 with VD's resize (Lancsoz3). I know regular NTSC pixel , simply inserting values such as 720x380 something...

4)What's the size of the DAR for 21:3 (2.35:1), TV PAR? It's 720x_?

Thanks in advance.

Cheers,
Mark

[Cornucopia]

Maybe this will help (I just did this earlier on another thread):

Pixel Aspect Ratio (or PAR) is like a tiny box (the pixel). Let's measure it's distances Width (X) and Height (Y) and use the ratio X/Y ast the PAR.

As you already stated, standard SD-NTSC (non-anamorphic) pixels have an aspect ratio of .9090909, SD-PAL (non-anamorphic) pixels have an aspect ratio of 1.06666666.

A simple formula can clear up a lot of difficulties:

Horiz. Rez / Vert. Rez * PAR = DAR

This can be rewritten a number of ways:

Horiz. Rez / Vert. Rez = DAR /PAR

Horiz. Rez = Vert. Rez * DAR / PAR

PAR = Vert. Rez * DAR / Horiz. Rez

etc (use whatever knowns to find the unknowns).

So, let's take some examples:

You know HD video is sometimes 1920x1080, and that all HD is square pixels (aka PAR=1), therefore it must have a DAR of: 1.78 (aka 16:9)

But what about anamorphic?

Well, let's say you've got a 16:9 DVD (for math simplicity's sake, say it's 704x480--trust me).

Using the formula....

PAR = 480 * 1.78 / 704 = 1.2136

Similarly,

Vert. Rez = Horiz. Rez * PAR / DAR, so if:

Vert. Rez = 640 * 1 / 2.35 = 272 (and change, which we'll ignore 'cuz you can't have a fraction of a pixel)

.....

Most of the time PAR can be ignored when encoding/storing a file, as long as all the other parameters are known. It really comes into play when it's being displayed and your screen may have to resize on the fly. Even then, it's usually not something we usually have to target for. Usually, one is targeting the DAR.

Here's an example:

What happens when you play a wide-screen DVD at full-screen, letterboxed on a PC.

We all know PC monitors have PAR's of 1.
If the screen is set for 800x600 (4:3), and we want a standard letterbox that has no side black, what dimensions is the originally stored DVD being displayed at?

Vert. Rez. = 800 * 1 / 1.78 = ~449 pixels high

So, there's "how it's stored" and "how it's displayed", which can be 2 completely different things.

Clear as mud, right?

Scott

[Cunhambebe]

Clear as mud, right?

LOL - Thanks for taking time to respond, Scott. There's a good deal of information on this thread.

Wanna know how I solved the mystery (I wanted to resize 4:3 to 16:9 ?

I could load the video in Vegas and hit Match Output Aspect Ratio, but then there would be some cropping. I wanted to keep everything (even if the image got a little distorted).

I loaded the video in VDMod>Full P. Mode> Filter> null transform (I cropped some borders)> Save as AVI (changing the framerate also from 29,97 to 24 (my target was 23,976).

After this, I loaded the video in Vegas (Properties for the project: 23,976 16:9) and checked NO for Maintain Aspect Ratio. Good. The video was stretched (I kept the original value for PAR 0,9091). It may not be the correct way to do that because the image is distorted, stretched, but it worked. It could be done in VDMod, resizing the image with Lanczos3 to 720x360 (I guess...) If this proportion corresponds the 16:9 display area (not includding the blacjk bars).

What happens when you play a wide-screen DVD at full-screen, letterboxed on a PC.
We all know PC monitors have PAR's of 1.
If the screen is set for 800x600 (4:3), and we want a standard letterbox that has no side black, what dimensions is the originally stored DVD being displayed at?
Vert. Rez. = 800 * 1 / 1.78 = ~449 pixels high
So, there's "how it's stored" and "how it's displayed", which can be 2 completely different things.

Very good explanation Scott; thank you, but... lol

What is the display aspect ratio (DAR) for TV 16:9 (without the black bars)??? I already know these figures for PC DAR that are: 640x480 (4:3) 640x360 (16:9) and 640x272 (21:9).
16:9 DAR for TV must be 720 by 360... DAR for 21:9 may be 720x272.. Am I right??? pls hope you don't get mad....

Thanks to VideoHelp
https://www.videohelp.com/forum/userguides/174200.php

Shall we continue with Xvid?!

Thanks in advance

[Mrsash]

I have a 4:3 Tv set and I add black bars to all my movies. I watch a lot of movies for whcih I need subs as I dont speak all languages. I absolutely hate watching a movie where I cant read the subs because the subs are the same colour as the background. I know you can add borders and shadows to subs, but still. I have found it to work peferctly for me. I dont see what's so good about widescreen TV. Its very annoying when a sales person says to you everyone is going to widescreen route. You look at the Widescreen Tv and the Tv broadcast seems to streched horizontally, which is annoying. And when you ask the sales guy can you set it to 4:3 and change AR, he is confused and needs to speak to a couple of people including his manager. At least when you have a 4:3 you know for sure unless the dvd player is stuffed you are gonna have the aspect ratio and see the entire picture all the time. Yes the entire picture with Black bars, which just blends in and you dont care.

I hope this has been of some help

[Cunhambebe]

You look at the Widescreen Tv and the Tv broadcast seems to streched horizontally, which is annoying.

-This is true. The Justice here has decided that all 16:6 TVs (plasma or LCD) MUST show a warning for the consumer explaining clearly that it is a device for HDTV and not 4:3, therefore making it clear that the display 4:3 will be stretched in full screen and out of the correct proportion (if the client keeps it 4:3 the device will show back pillars on both sides). Don't worry with salesmen, they are just trying to make a living Once one of them was trying to explain to me that a regular Samsung DVD can show HDTV resolution in NTSC :P lol lol

Let's contine with Xvid....
Cheers,
Mark

[Mrsash]

I do realise some Widescreen Tv has this option but i find that more annoying than the horizontal bars which I am used to.