DL, Shrink, PGCedit question

[Seeker47]

I'm aware of the DL blind spot issue with Shrink, and that a guide-covered procedure involving PGCedit appears to be the only reliable solution. (Which still leaves unexplained why a small percentage of the 1:1 DL backups I made with Shrink -- before I knew any details about this problem -- still managed to turn out fine ?) Anyway, I wanted to find out at exactly what point the layer treatment failure with Shrink comes in. Is it there already at the ripping stage, or is there nothing wrong with the files Shrink has ripped, and the problem comes in later, during the burn ?

[fritzi93]

I can think of two reasons off the top of my head for your early DL burns to have succeeded:

1) Your settings in DVDShrink. Edit -> Preferences -> Output Files -> Remove layer Break (left UNchecked). If you don't remove the layer break with that setting AND have size selected as DVD9, also don't deselect anything, the LB *should* be intact. Shouldn't matter if PUOs are removed or not.

[EDIT] To clarify, actually, the important point here is that the size and structure remain the same, therefore the "optimal" layer break position is also unchanged. Whether there's layer break info or not.

2) You burned with DVDDecrypter(?). Tools -> Settings -> ISO Write Mode -> Layer Break (For DL Media) -> Calculate Optimal. People have reported this has worked for them when the LB is absent, I dunno. I've only done straight DVDDecrypter ISO Read -> ISO Write, and the PgcEdit method.

[lordsmurf]

Stop using DVD Shrink at all. It is a transcoder.

Use DVD Decryter for 1:1. Enable the MDS file, don't just use the ISO. Rip the DVD in ISO READ mode. Change to ISO WRITE mode, then select the MDS and burn (it calls the ISO data for burning, and the layer break info is stored in the MDS). You won't have issues this way.

If DVD Decrypter cannot rip the disc, this clearly won't work for you, but that should not happen very often at all.

[Seeker47]

Stop using DVD Shrink at all. It is a transcoder.

Use DVD Decryter for 1:1. Enable the MDS file, don't just use the ISO. Rip the DVD in ISO READ mode. Change to ISO WRITE mode, then select the MDS and burn (it calls the ISO data for burning, and the layer break info is stored in the MDS). You won't have issues this way.

If DVD Decrypter cannot rip the disc, this clearly won't work for you, but that should not happen very often at all.

Thanks for the advice, Lordsmurf. I will try to do it as you suggest more often. (Although I must admit to being somewhat addicted to the simplicity and features available in Shrink.) A few related questions: The PGCedit layer break business is not needed, in this DVD Decrypter scenario you refer to ? Am I correct that DVDD is useless for doing anything with already ripped files on your hard drive, as in the case where you may have used Fab Decrypter for that -- i.e., DVDD will only address a physical disc ? What about a Daemon Tools "impersonation" of a physical DVD ? And I'd still like to know if the layer break (and maybe the menu navigation too) is already screwed up at the point where Shrink has ripped the files, if one has used Shrink ? (I'm asking these questions about the ripped-to-HDD files in VIDEO_TS folders because I have some unfinished backup jobs like that, and would like to know if re-rips are mandatory ?)

[VegasBud]

Am I correct that DVDD is useless for doing anything with already ripped files on your hard drive...

I hate to use the words "DvdDecrypter " and "useless" in the same sentence, but in this case, yes, it won't do anything useful. Once you rip a dvd with any program, that's pretty much it. DvdDecrypter can't repair an existing bad rip. FixVTS and PgcEdit can often repair bad rips so they're usable, but generally, you're better off just ripping the original dvd again with a different program.

...I'd still like to know if the layer break (and maybe the menu navigation too) is already screwed up at the point where Shrink has ripped the files...

Since DvdShrink doesn't work with the new protections, a rip done with it was likely from an older dvd, and it's probably fine.

Since you are concerned about layer break, there are a couple things you should keep in mind about using DvdShrink with dual layer (besides what fritzi93 mentioned):
1) If you're using DvdShrink to change the dvd in any way, the layer break should be checked/reset.
2) Don't use DvdShrink to create an iso for dual layer. The only program LighningUK! specifically recommends for the job is PgcEdit (unless you're leaving everything unchanged, in which case you should consider following lordsmurf's recommendation to use DvdDecrypter iso-read iso-write).

[Seeker47]

Thanks for your replies here, and in the DVD DL Problem thread. I'm kinda slow on a lot of this stuff, it can take a while for the answers to sink in, but between these discussions, I think you have filled in more of the blanks for me.

Once you rip a dvd with any program, that's pretty much it. DvdDecrypter can't repair an existing bad rip..

I also get the impression it can't make an ISO out of files it did not rip itself, or write back an ISO it did not make.

FixVTS and PgcEdit can often repair bad rips so they're usable, but generally, you're better off just ripping the original dvd again with a different program..

I need to learn how to use these tools effectively anyway, so I may attempt just such repairs of rips already done, in some cases.

[VegasBud]

As far as DvdDecrypter making an iso out of files it didn't rip, it seems there's always a way to do something, if you really want to, but it would involve work that isn't necessary. If you want an iso that will go on a single layer disk, ImgTools Classic (make sure it's the Classic version) makes a great dvd-video iso. If the iso will be going on a dual layer, PgcEdit is the only program that the author of ImgBurn recommends. Either way, the iso you get will be every bit as good as an iso created with DvdDecrypter.

DvdDecrypter will burn an iso created by another program, but LighningUK! (the author of both DvdDecrypter and ImgBurn) recommends using ImgBurn instead of DvdDecrypter to burn. He says the ImgBurn program is superior. As the foremost expert on both programs, his advice is undoubtedly sound.

FixVTS is a fantastic program that is incredibly easy to use. Just drag any one of the dvd's vob files over onto the FixVTS window, drop it, and click the "Full Dvd" button.

PgcEdit, on the other hand, has so many options, so many tools, and is so powerful, that learning it all is like trying to memorize an encyclopedia. I've been using it for years, and am still constantly learning new features in it, or ways to do things. There are a couple tips I can give you about learning how to use it:
1) In the file menu, you can make an incremental backup of the current state of the dvd you're working on, or restore a backup. If you make a change to the dvd, and it blows up in your face, just restore the last backup and try again. Every time you make a change that works, make another incremental backup.
2) Don't try to learn too many features at once. You'll just hurt your brain.
3) There are many, many guides to using PgcEdit that will step you through a task step by step. Use Google to find a guide for what you're trying to do. If that guide doesn't work, there's probably another one that may work better for you.

[Seeker47]

Lordsmurf said: "Stop using DVD Shrink at all. It is a transcoder. "
Yes, but going 1:1 (leaving aside the layer break issue, for a moment), should not do anything to the encoding (or quality), should it ?

But suppose you wanted to do a backup with DVD-RB, instead. At the beginning of the short "Easyguide" for RB, it mentions that Decrypter is used for the ripping. Presumably you could pre-set DVD Decrypter to do ISO Read | ISO Write ? Or do you still need to get PgcEdit involved in the process somewhere for dealing with the layer break ?

[ted demen]

FixVTS is a fantastic program that is incredibly easy to use. Just drag any one of the dvd's vob files over onto the FixVTS window, drop it, and click the "Full Dvd" button.
.

i did this exact procedure with Hostel, and although it did its thing, i still get this message when i try to open it in dvd shrink:

"dvd shrink has encountered a problem and cannot continue
invalid data in vob VIDEO_TS\VTS_01_5.VOB"

???

[VegasBud]

Seeker47,

Yes, but going 1:1 (leaving aside the layer break issue, for a moment), should not do anything to the encoding (or quality), should it ?

You're right about that. If you are doing a 1:1 backup ("No Compression"), DvdShrink will just pass the original through unchanged. Just be aware that DvdShrink shouldn't be used to make an iso for a dual layer.

Presumably you could pre-set DVD Decrypter to do ISO Read | ISO Write ?

I've never used Dvd-RB so I don't know what its' capabilities are. It certainly is possible for any program that is using DvdDecrypter's CLI (Command Line Interface) to automatically do a iso-read, iso-write, so if a program is opening DvdDecrypter (which would requre using the CLI), it is just a question of whether the program has been coded to do that specific task.

Or do you still need to get PgcEdit involved in the process somewhere for dealing with the layer break ?

If you're not making any changes to the original, then using the DvdDecrypter iso-read, iso-write makes any manipulation of the layer break unnecessary.

For backing up a dvd-9 (dual layer) dvd, the only time you need to worry about the layer break is if:
1) One of the new protection schemes were used on the disk. The removal of the intentional defects almost certainly changes where the layer break should be.
2) You made changes to the ripped dvd. Examples would be removing the previews, removing audio streams, etc. Any change that would affect the size of the dvd will affect where the layer break should be.

Just so you know, PgcEdit is the best way to set the layer break, but not the only way. Both DvdDecrypter and ImgBurn will, by default, set the "Optimal" layer break with no user intervention. The burned dvd will be perfectly functional...but there might be a slight pause on playback when it changes layers. The reason I always use PgcEdit for the layer break is it allows you to see where the layer break is going to go, and offers choices. That way you can almost always pick a nice quiet place to put the break so it isn't noticeable at all.

[VegasBud]

ted demen,

"dvd shrink has encountered a problem and cannot continue
invalid data in vob VIDEO_TS\VTS_01_5.VOB"

That's DvdShrink's way of telling you that you're trying to feed it a bad rip, and it's choking on it. While FixVTS is definitely fantastic at its' job, there are rips that are too screwed up to fix. In your case, it sounds like that's the problem.

The DvdShrink problem will go away if you feed it a good rip. Rip the original dvd again, using the freeware program RipIt4Me, and you shouldn't have any more problems.

[Seeker47]

The reason I always use PgcEdit for the layer break is it allows you to see where the layer break is going to go, and offers choices. That way you can almost always pick a nice quiet place to put the break so it isn't noticeable at all.

Thanks. Yes, that's kind of like what I'm used to doing on the standalone recorder (which only burns SL), in the case of a longish movie I want to get with max. quality. Find a place fairly close to the halfway point where there is a fade, or someone is entering a hallway or stairwell, but no dialog or voiceover, and no major impact on the overall story continuity. That is where Disk 1 ends, and Disk 2 will begin. It has been an acceptable compromise, but it's still better to be able to burn DL, should one wish to. Fortunately, that option is always available on the computer.

[ted demen]

The DvdShrink problem will go away if you feed it a good rip. Rip the original dvd again, using the freeware program RipIt4Me, and you shouldn't have any more problems.

ok i re-ripped it with ripit4me and the error still comes up! (with the same file)

[fritzi93]

The DvdShrink problem will go away if you feed it a good rip. Rip the original dvd again, using the freeware program RipIt4Me, and you shouldn't have any more problems.

ok i re-ripped it with ripit4me and the error still comes up! (with the same file)

You still having trouble with that one, Ted? :P Did you try deleting DVDShrink's analysis files to force it to do the analysis over again?

[VegasBud]

ted demen,

Last Saturday I was over at my brother's house, and helped him back up his Hostel - Unrated Widescreen Region 1 dvd. I downloaded RipIt4Me and all the fixings, and turned it loose using the 1-click mode so my brother could learn how to do his own backups. The resulting rip was perfect. DvdShrink opened it at the end with no problems at all. That's why I was so sure RipIt4Me would work for you.

The really bizarre part is VTS_01_05 is fairly normal. It's VTS_01_01 that's full of garbage.

Did you try fritzi93's recommendation?

If fritzi93's tip doesn't work, there's only one useable ripper left. Have you tried the PSL2 Plugin for PgcEdit on this demon dvd? It does things a little differently, including using DvdDecrypter's errors to create the PSL2 file. Maybe that's all it would take.

If that doesn't work, we're pretty much down to an exorcism.

[ted demen]

You still having trouble with that one, Ted? :P Did you try deleting DVDShrink's analysis files to force it to do the analysis over again?

shrink doesnt even get to even get into the anylisys part.....just rejects the file first thing and only gives me the option to hit "ok" at which point shrink closes...

[ted demen]

The really bizarre part is VTS_01_05 is fairly normal. It's VTS_01_01 that's full of garbage.

Did you try fritzi93's recommendation?

If fritzi93's tip doesn't work, there's only one useable ripper left. Have you tried the PSL2 Plugin for PgcEdit on this demon dvd? It does things a little differently, including using DvdDecrypter's errors to create the PSL2 file. Maybe that's all it would take.

If that doesn't work, we're pretty much down to an exorcism.

yea this movie is already taking up too much of my time :P
pain in the ars....but its personal now
vts0101 is not problematic at al for me....just that damn 05
i will the psl2 route if all else fails....

thanx for all the help everyone.....appreciate it.....will report