Blu-ray & HD-DVD already failed formats?

[RLT69]

overloaded_ide wrote:
I have SEVERAL DVDs I am going to re-author, it was nice they gave me the deleated scenes as extra's so I can put them back in where they belong!!!
Alternatively, you could just wait a few weeks for the extended director's cut to be released!

Or wait another 6 months for the "Won't Change My Mind, Honest to God Final Vision, Director's Cut" release.

8)

Personally I'm waiting for the version where you the audience tell the characters what to do..... :P

[dphirschler]

SD TV sets will continue to be produced but they will be required to have ATSC digital tuners whether you want to receive OTA broadcast or not. This is a waste of money if you ask me. The tuner and display should be separate. More than 85% in the USA get TV service over cable or dbs.

Ahh, but one could still sell an HDTV "display" or "monitor" without the tuner as long it is not called a TV. If you call it a TV, you must include a tuner.


Darryl

[somebodeez]

I find myself more and more being turned off by the current shows and movies.

There are a LOT of good classic movies and shows that have never been released onto VHS, let alone DVD.
And if they never see the light of day on BluRay or HD either, I don't see myself getting all that excited or impressed about these new formats until the prices drop down and there's a format "winner".

Even then, there absolutely must be simplicity and freedom in usage without having to be tied to the internet or checking to see if it "approves" of my TV before the movie plays (or not) ect.

We don't even have an HDTV yet because there are still too many issues with them at this time.

[Tom Saurus]

Could it be possible that as a technology these Blue Ray and HD DVD, that the biggest appeal will be to for those of us who want a disc that we can put significantly more data on?

As for content, even at Standard Definition, like today's DVD's, I could see the appeal when it comes to box sets. Just imagine, One DVD holds a whole season's worth of a tv show. All 8 Seasons of Little House On The Prairie on 8 Discs at maybe 200 bucks for the whole thing. Now if they combine that with something like an armour plating technology that the discs nearly indestructable, that would be really neat. Though Hollywood would make alot more stringing the DVD's out a little a time on alot more discs. Like $20 bucks for one episode of Columbo on vhs. I can't remember how that was now, you pay so much for the first tape and then after take additional ones at certain prices. They must of made millions stringing things out like that.

Maybe the size of the discs will come in handy when Titanic and Star Wars get coverted to 3D, I would think that you would need a big disc to hold something like that. I would imagine it would look really neat to see some of these big block busters in 3D.

[ntscuser]

Maybe the size of the discs will come in handy when Titanic and Star Wars get coverted to 3D, I would think that you would need a big disc to hold something like that. I would imagine it would look really neat to see some of these big block busters in 3D.

Perhaps they could even get the director's cut of Kingdom of Heaven to fit on one disc?

[Conquest10]

We don't even have an HDTV yet because there are still too many issues with them at this time.

What issues? Implimentation of HDMI seems like the only one to me.

[ROF]

Even then, there absolutely must be simplicity and freedom in usage without having to be tied to the internet or checking to see if it "approves" of my TV before the movie plays (or not) ect.

But some of those options or even others are necessary because some people are thieves.

They honestly believe that renting movies and burning them does not harm anyone even when done for strictly personal usage(the typical excuse as they loan them to friends) or that streaming the output of copyrighted material to a recording device for permanent archival of unpurchased footage is their god given right. There are even people who go as far as to believe that it's not stealing. Even more sad is some people still believe that if they pay for broadcast television they have paid for the right to archive the broadcast indefinitely.

Because some people were not taught that just because you didn't steal physical property it is still stealing and they can not seem to control themselves or their actions some measures must be put into place in order stem the flow of such illegal activity. Technology has given us great wonders but it has also created thieves who may not even realize they should be in jail for what they are doing.

[ntscuser]

Because some people were not taught that just because you didn't steal physical property it is still stealing and they can not seem to control themselves or their actions some measures must be put into place in order stem the flow of such illegal activity. Technology has given us great wonders but it has also created thieves who may not even realize they should be in jail for what they are doing.

Yes, like people who think they have a god-given right to make back-up copies of discs for which they paid the full original purchase price.

[somebodeez]

We don't even have an HDTV yet because there are still too many issues with them at this time.

What issues? Implimentation of HDMI seems like the only one to me.

Heres an older post of mine about that:
https://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?p=1450673#1450673

[ntscuser]

We don't even have an HDTV yet because there are still too many issues with them at this time.

What issues? Implimentation of HDMI seems like the only one to me.

Heres an older post of mine about that:
https://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?p=1450673#1450673

That post is talking about a rear-projection unit. The vast majority of HD displays sold these days are LCD or Plasma.

[MOVIEGEEK]

Because some people were not taught that just because you didn't steal physical property it is still stealing and they can not seem to control themselves or their actions some measures must be put into place in order stem the flow of such illegal activity. Technology has given us great wonders but it has also created thieves who may not even realize they should be in jail for what they are doing.

There you go again...punish the masses for the wrong doing of a few.
Maybe we can put governors on cars that limit the car to the speed lemit.

[somebodeez]

We don't even have an HDTV yet because there are still too many issues with them at this time.

What issues? Implimentation of HDMI seems like the only one to me.

Heres an older post of mine about that:
https://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?p=1450673#1450673

That post is talking about a rear-projection unit. The vast majority of HD displays sold these days are LCD or Plasma.

Which are still subject to those things that I listed in that post, as far as what I've seen personally and/or have read about.

[somebodeez]

or that streaming the output of copyrighted material to a recording device for permanent archival of unpurchased footage is their god given right.

Then make the content that I want available for purchase.

[ntscuser]

We don't even have an HDTV yet because there are still too many issues with them at this time.

What issues? Implimentation of HDMI seems like the only one to me.

Heres an older post of mine about that:
https://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?p=1450673#1450673

That post is talking about a rear-projection unit. The vast majority of HD displays sold these days are LCD or Plasma.

Which are still subject to those things that I listed in that post, as far as what I've seen personally and/or have read about.

You have seen or read about an LCD or plasma display which requires a lenticular screen and replacement bulb?

[Conquest10]

Yeah but those problems are not exclusive to HDTVs. They have been around since the invention of the TV. It hasn't stopped anyone from buying one before. It didn't stop you from buying the TV you own right now.

A - Less functional than what I have now
B - Can't display anything without making it look like very bad quality DivX 3 LM rips
C- Have to worry about burn-in
D- Has screen door, sun spots and rainbow effects
E- Can only watch in a dimmed room (or only watch in a bright room)
F - Can't see the display from the side
G - Will need a $400 bulb replaced every couple of years
H - Will require me to pay someone to calibrate it
I - Has squiggly lines up and down the whole picture

A - Less functional? How so?
B - Depends on what TV you get. None of mine look awful
C - The TV you have right now is not immune from burn-in either
D - All depends on what TV you want to buy
E - While RPTVs look better in dark rooms, they still look beautiful in well-lit rooms. LCDs only look good in well-lit rooms. No two ways about that.
F - Only a problem of RPTV and LCDTVs
G - Not all
H - Only RPTVs, but not always
I - squiggly lines? LCDs is the only thing I can think of that could do that.

I do not recommend LCDs to be used for a TV, ever.

[somebodeez]

You have seen or read about an LCD or plasma display which requires a lenticular screen and replacement bulb?

Because there seems to be various issues with this or that kind of HDTV, I lumped them altogether in that post and it's too confusing for me to try to sort out which is what now.

Once they come up w/a model that doesn't have motion artifacts or any of the other issues that I listed and can handle non-HDTV content w/out making it look horrible and prices become sensible and the kind of HDTV content that I want is available, I'll be looking into them.

Mean while, the TVs that I have had for years - which haven't sufferred any of those things, are still alive & kickin'

[RLT69]

Even more sad is some people still believe that if they pay for broadcast television they have paid for the right to archive the broadcast indefinitely.

Those bastards!

How dare they steal money from those Hollywood excutives. I mean hollywood excutives are entitled to eat too. I guess with all this rampant piracy going on, those hollywood excutives won't be able to buy a Gulfstream G-IV jet but contiune to use their Gulfstream G-III jet.

When will people learn.

8)

[ROF]

Because some people were not taught that just because you didn't steal physical property it is still stealing and they can not seem to control themselves or their actions some measures must be put into place in order stem the flow of such illegal activity. Technology has given us great wonders but it has also created thieves who may not even realize they should be in jail for what they are doing.

There you go again...punish the masses for the wrong doing of a few.
Maybe we can put governors on cars that limit the car to the speed lemit.

Actually that is not a bad idea. It would save lives, prevent wasteful consumption of natural resources, and would free the police to protect and serve instead of pulling over some idiot who thinks they own the road.

[ROF]

or that streaming the output of copyrighted material to a recording device for permanent archival of unpurchased footage is their god given right.

Then make the content that I want available for purchase.

While I tend to agree it is the copyright owners right to release or not to release their material. However this does not give you the right to violate the law.

[adam]

Firts of all content is the driving force behind adopting a technology. If you can't buy movies in HD or watch HD programming, what's the point of plunking down $1000, as an exmaple, on an HD TV set if there is nothing to watch. The consumer would wait to buy an HD TV until there is content available.

There is plenty of content available in the form of HD broadcasts. That is currently the driving force behind Hdtvs. As penetration of these tvs increases Blu-ray and HD-DVD will become the predominant media format. This is expected to take several years at least. That is why there is no point in releasing this massive catalogue of older movies now. There is not yet a demand for it and content is not going to create that demand so long as the technology is priced for only the enthusiast, AND it requires most people to ditch their tvs which may still work perfectly well and in a quality that they are happy with. Doubling every existing movie onto one of the HD formats would certainly increase sales of all HD technology, but it would also bankrupt everyone in the process. There is an inherant transition period with first-gen media technology. Its just a fact.

Retail stores are not going to stock a massive catalogue of movies that can't play on like 85% of people's tvs, and 99.9999% of peoples dvd players. Give it time. That is exactly what the two camps expect you to do.

If HD is the future than the market is not iffy. The market is only iffy if HD's future is uncertain.

The market is iffy because this is first-gen technology. It is unavoidable.

Once DVD was established over VHS - moving towards HD was a no brainer. People would adopt it if that's all that's available. But the studios are quite timid to push product out in HD only format. At the very least they could do what they did with DVD, make the first releases available in HD only, then later on release DVD and VHS (if they are still doing that).

You know it took like 5 years before DVD "established" itself over VHS. And even now you can still buy VHS's for new release films. When DVDs were launched there was no massive catalogue to choose from. At launch there was a small selection of older films and a small selection of recent films, and from there they released new movies in the format and slowly started releasing back catalogues. Once the players penetrated homes in large numbers they started releasing the movies like hotcakes.

Neither at initial launch nor since were DVDs ever released before the VHS. The trend has always been to release the VHS first or to release them simultaneously. VHS get released first in the hopes that people will double dip and buy the better quality DVD later.

The point is - there is a way to push adoption of HD. Make content available in HD and limit content access to HD format only.

Not only is that utterly impractical and economic suicide, but it would also have legal consequences. That would be an Antitrust violation.

By no means am I or for the most part anyone else saying HD is not coming. HD well get here but probably in another 10 years. The real question is wether or not Blue-Ray or HD-DVD is the technology that's going to carry HD. From what we have seen, it's not doing a good job.

Well that's exactly what I said in my post. That's my whole point, except that you can't judge whether its "doing a good job" now because its literally not even a pipe dream for these formats to be successful now. These formats are released with long term goals. We are all supposed to be waiting for it to get better first. That's why its called first gen technology.

[ROF]

Even more sad is some people still believe that if they pay for broadcast television they have paid for the right to archive the broadcast indefinitely.

Those bastards!

How dare they steal money from those Hollywood excutives. I mean hollywood excutives are entitled to eat too. I guess with all this rampant piracy going on, those hollywood excutives won't be able to buy a Gulfstream G-IV jet but contiune to use their Gulfstream G-III jet.

You make their purchases sound like a bad thing. I owned a prop plane for several years. In the early 80's I upgraded to a larger capacity prop plane because I could afford to do so. I do not consider my original purchase to be bad. I also do not consider my upgrade to have been bad. Wish I still had either of them. But price of fuel and storage was killer. What I do consider bad is people who think that just because you have money to spend you shouldn't. Remember that upgrade that executive makes keeps money flowing through the economy rather than just sitting in some bank earning interest for that executive. By them upgrading to the latest Gulfstream they have actually indirectly helped your economy.

[ozymango]

I owned a prop plane for several years. In the early 80's I upgraded to a larger capacity prop plane because I could afford to do so. I do not consider my original purchase to be bad. I also do not consider my upgrade to have been bad.

When you "upgraded" airplanes, what did you do with your old one?

[ROF]

I owned a prop plane for several years. In the early 80's I upgraded to a larger capacity prop plane because I could afford to do so. I do not consider my original purchase to be bad. I also do not consider my upgrade to have been bad.

When you "upgraded" airplanes, what did you do with your old one?

Sold it to an aviation friend. why?

[ozymango]

There is plenty of content available in the form of HD broadcasts. That is currently the driving force behind Hdtvs. As penetration of these tvs increases Blu-ray and HD-DVD will become the predominant media format.

That seems a bit of a large assumption, and I believe it ignores some extremely major technological issues and advances.

For starters, "standard" DVDs (and even VHS/Beta tapes) took advantage of an existing technology -- Television -- and maxed it out for all it was worth. That is, they gave people who had televisions more than what they'd ever had before (e.g. the ability to play anything on demand, anytime, pause, fast forward, repeat, etc). And these technologies (VHS and DVD) made the smart move of being totally incompatible with previous formats. You can't play an LP record on a VHS deck, and you can't play a VHS tape on a DVD player.

Blu-Ray and HDTV are, basically, "containers." Aside from improved picture and sound quality -- which is not due to the formats themselves but to the nature of HDTV, a separate technology -- they offer no features that weren't available before (aside from capacity, and "security" features that do not immediately benefit your average viewer). And -- I think importantly -- the ability to play "standard" DVDs is one of the nails in the "competing" formats respective coffins.

Sure, one can argue that this maximizes "compatibility," whatever that means. But -- so far -- I wouldn't bet any money on a new technology that doesn't really and truly take a leap away from the old one.

Digital cameras aren't compatible with film cameras. LPs aren't compatible with iPods. Even computer makes finally figured out that making new computers compatible with old programs was a loser's game.

The technologies that really take off, require a lifestyle change. Incremental changes are all fine and dandy but when you're talking $$$$$$, nobody's gonna get their knickers in a twist over containers. And HD and Blu-Ray discs are just containers.

DVDs were lifestyle changes. The iPod is a lifestyle change. VHS was a lifestyle change. The Mini-Cooper is a lifestyle change. XBox is a lifestyle change.

HD and Blu-Ray discs are like Tupperware -- awesome containers, but really, I get the same results from Rubbermaid.

EDIT: Forgot to put in my plug for the technologies that I do think are lifestyle changers -- the "Tivo" (or generic digital recorder) and "on-demand" viewing over cable. These give a specific and particular advantage to consumers -- e.g. "I wanna watch this new movie right now!" -- that enhances the experience in ways that make it worthwhile (for many people, I believe) to "switch" or "upgrade." And -- importantly -- because the methods of delivering the majority of HDTV signal for the forseeable future is gonna be over some kind of cable connection, anything that takes advantage of that cable connection (like "Tivo" or similar units, and on-demand digital viewing) and offers the majority of users a more value-added experience, that's where I'd invest my money.

[RLT69]

Neither at initial launch nor since were DVDs ever released before the VHS. The trend has always been to release the VHS first or to release them simultaneously. VHS get released first in the hopes that people will double dip and buy the better quality DVD later.

I seem to recall some movies being released first on DVD and then VHS second. I want to say South Park Bigger Louder and Uncut was one of them.

RLT69 wrote:
The point is - there is a way to push adoption of HD. Make content available in HD and limit content access to HD format only.

Not only is that utterly impractical and economic suicide, but it would also have legal consequences. That would be an Antitrust violation.

You are going to have to explain that one. How is releasing a movie only on HD DVD an Anti-trust Violation? All kinds of media are only available in one format or another. There are entire catalogs of movies or music that will never be released on CD, DVD or HD DVD.

As penetration of these tvs increases Blu-ray and HD-DVD will become the predominant media format. This is expected to take several years at least. That is why there is no point in releasing this massive catalogue of older movies now. There is not yet a demand for it and content is not going to create that demand so long as the technology is priced for only the enthusiast, AND it requires most people to ditch their tvs which may still work perfectly well and in a quality that they are happy with. Doubling every existing movie onto one of the HD formats would certainly increase sales of all HD technology, but it would also bankrupt everyone in the process. There is an inherant transition period with first-gen media technology. Its just a fact.

There's no guarantee that Blu-Ray or HD-DVD will become the media format for HD. There are already technologies in the pipeline that surpass either one of those. For example, Holographic data storage and units are slated to appear this year! The storage capacity is insane, 3.9 TeraBytes!! How long before companies dump Blu-Ray or HD-DVD for something with long term potential?

If it's going to take Blu-Ray/HD-DVD 5-8 years to catch on, they may as well drop it. That's too long of a time frame for other technologies to overtake them.

As you pointed out much of this technology is first generation, though it's not marketed to the consumer as such. So, why buy it? If the technology is going to change over time and the content doesn't exist, why am I buying it now? Wouldn't it be smarter for the me to wait until the technology is mature and content is available?

People are happy with DVDs and their current sets. Hell most people aren't even viewing DVDs in 480p, let alone upconverting them to 1080p! There is no compelling reason to adopt Blu-Ray/HD DVD player. That's what the Audioholics article was pointing out. HD is coming, certainly but not necessarily in the Blu-Ray/HD DVD format.

[ozymango]

Sold it to an aviation friend. why?

Point being, an airplane that was built in 1941 that passes all inspections is still quite viable (and worth $$$) on the market.

[ntscuser]

Sold it to an aviation friend. why?

Point being, an airplane that was built in 1941 that passes all inspections is still quite viable (and worth $$$) on the market.

Whereas a DVD becomes practically worthless as soon as you break the seal and sometimes even before that.

[ROF]

Sold it to an aviation friend. why?

Point being, an airplane that was built in 1941 that passes all inspections is still quite viable (and worth $$$) on the market.

Whereas a DVD becomes practically worthless as soon as you break the seal and sometimes even before that.

Exactly. I do not see the point of resale as it relates to this topic anyways. There is nothing limiting you from taking your original disc and posting a sale price on Ebay for the original price you paid. I doubt you'd get that value unless you found a buyer who had to have it. To say the Blu-ray or HD-DVD are already a failed format is impossible to predict. The one thing I can see is that they both can not rule forever. Whether the format war, time, or technology gets to either of them first it is inevitable that they will be supplanted by the next technology. In which case, we will all be buying our favorite (insert movie title) in a different media format.

[lordsmurf]

You are going to have to explain that one. How is releasing a movie only on HD DVD an Anti-trust Violation? All kinds of media are only available in one format or another. There are entire catalogs of movies or music that will never be released on CD, DVD or HD DVD.

When large companies join together to force you to buy something you don't necessarily need or want, and at prices that are often high, that's a trust, and such activity is unethical and is why the anti-trust laws were enacted almost 100 years ago.

VHS and DVD caught on because of market demand, not because companies forced the issue.

HD formats, both televisions and discs, are simply not catching on. It'll be at least another 10 years before it does. By that time, something like HD-DVD and BD will seem like a technological fossil, and it'll be pushed aside like Laserdisc and S-VHS and others.

Whether or not somebody likes HD, it does not change the fact that:
- most televisions are traditional tv sets
- many of these sets are just a few years old with plenty of lifetime left
- that people do not buy things until old ones break (not because something else newer exists)
- that we have 100 years worth of SD content that people prefer, look at how popular re-runs and DVD sales of television shows are
- that regardless of abilities, many DVDs are poorly made by studios (grain, overcompression, etc), including Warner Brothers, Fox and Buena Vista ... people are often angered by this ... unlikely that HD/BD will be any different
- most broadcasting is still not HD

[rumplestiltskin]

Extended Director's Cut = Director playing with himself

Example: Blade Runner theatrical release was excellent. In the Director's cut, Ridley Scott eliminated Ford's voiceover and changed the ending effectively ruining what had been an excellent film noire interpretation of a reasonably good sci-fi story.

Example: THX1138 - ruined by George Lucas with added special effects that ruined the continuity of the story's flow; it showed only that Lucas hadn't forgotten how to jerk off on camera.

The only re-cut film I've seen that worked even better than the original was NBC's edited version of The Godfather Saga where they they took parts I and II and re-edited it to play in chronological order. That was brilliant thinking.