VHS to DVDR - Record Speed vs Quality?

[bevills1]

For VHS to DVDR backup is there any noticeable difference in quality at slower DVD recorder record speeds since VHS is inherently lower quality than DVD, or should backup at lowest speed produce good quality while maximizing VHS tapes per DVD backup? If not, is there a happy medium like 3 hour or 4 hour DVD record mode?

[CrayonEater]

Experiment and see. That is the only way to determine what you find acceptable.

In theory, VHS is 1/4D1 or 352x240 (NTSC). That happens to be about the same resolution as EP (6-hr) mode on a DVD recorder. Unfortunately, that doesn't mean you can use a long-play mode; rather the opposite is the case- a low-res sample of a low-res sample makes for an even-more-low-res sample, so your quality will probably be appreciably worse if you use LP or EP modes.

Typically, LP (4-hr) mode is typically half-D1 or 352x480. That means you will still lose quality in the horizontal plane.

1-hr and 2-hr modes provide full D1 (720x480 or 704x480). On some recorders and in certain configurations, full D1 can be extended for as long as 2.5-3.0 hours before it becomes necessary to drop the resolution, if your recorder supports this or has a Flexible Recording mode. This is probably what you will want to do.

One again, though, experiment and find for yourself what happens. Who knows, maybe you will find that any quality degradation is unnoticeable in long-play modes.

[lordsmurf]

In theory, VHS is 1/4D1 or 352x240 (NTSC).

No, it is not. That is false. VHS is closest to 352x480. You are confusing your axis. The 240 lines of VHS refers to the first number in numberxnumber. VHS is closer to about 250-300x480. All NTSC video is numberx480

You cannot put more than 4 hours on a DVD, from VHS source, and expect the same quality as the VHS. More time is worse than the tape was.

Now then, many DVD recorders look bad at 4 hours or even 3 hours. Many are only good at 1-2 hours worth of video. So .... which DVD recorder is being discussed? Must know this before advice can be given, at least accurate advice.

[Marvingj]

It all depends on whether you want a copy of your VHS source or a virtual clone of it! As VHS is pretty poor to begin with, any copy will look a damn sight worse than the original. The only way to combat this is to copy it to a higher resolution format. This gives you a virtual clone of your tape rather than a 2nd generation copy. The picture on a VHS tape has a high amount of chroma noise on it, just turn down your colour control to see the image sharpen up a bit! All these filters and reduced frame sizes try to eliminate this noise. Unfortunately the noise is seen by the human eye as part of the picture sharpness, so once you reduce it you also reduce the sharpness of your image. MPEG encoding doesn't like noise (as it is too random) and so needs a lot of bitrate to code each frame. This is not going to happen at standard SVCD bitrates, so to get a clone of your VHS tapes you are looking at using DVD bitrates and frame sizes. CVD can be a good comprimise as standard TV sets don't give very sharp images anyway, but if you are planning on watching it on a PC monitor or a video projector, you will notice the difference in horizontal resolution.

The funny thing is that the better your source material the less bitrate is needed to code it! DVD's need less bitrate than Satellite. Sat requires less bitrate than cable/laserdisc. VHS (with the worst pciture quality of all) requires the most bitrate!

[Sam Ontario]

You will not notice any quality difference with most DVD recorders recording at 4 hour mode on a 32" analogue TV.

[bevills1]

Marvingj, with my LiteOn 5005 I find VHS to DVDR quality seems improved over the original VHS, and lordsmurf is probably right about quality varying between recorders. I've been backing up VHS to DVDR only in 4 hour mode to this point and was wondering whether noticeable quality loss would be seen if I went to 6 hour record mode. From what others have said thus far I think I'd be better to stick to 4 hour record mode, but I guess it wouldn't hurt to try 6 hour record mode just to test it. I could try it with DVD +RW media and just over write it if it's unacceptable quality.

[lordsmurf]

6-hour mode is forced to deinterlace your video, throwing away half the picture quality, and causing jaggy lines everywhere. If you don't see jaggy lines, record a cartoon channel for a few minutes, then play it back. It looks like trash.

Your LITEON has an LSI chipset. The CVBR use in it is not stellar for 4-hour mode (overly constrained, but not horrible), but it does do quite nice at 2-hour and 3-hour mode. Some do 3-hour native, some need a hack. JVC's use of LSI chipset is better, it has VBR in use.

[bevills1]

For viewing VHS movie backups to DVDR on television, 4 hour record mode looks at least as good if not better than original VHS to me, but I have no interest in watching recordings on computer. Are the jaggy lines on cartoon recordings seen only on computer, and if not, what kind of connection for such recording is used? I have my recorder connected directly to satellite receiver by SVideo cable. Are JVCs hackable to remove Macrovision like some LiteOn and a few others are?

[tac7]

For viewing VHS movie backups to DVDR on television, 4 hour record mode looks at least as good if not better than original VHS to me...

I guess different people have a different concept of picture quality. I also have the LiteOn 5005, and I have made a lot of VHS -> DVD backups, and additionally used TBC to stabilize the recordings. However, compared to DVD copies, the original VHS source always looks superior when played back on a higher-quality prosumer VCR deck.
While the DVD copies "appear" better to some people because any video noise is filtered out, there is an unmistakable loss of detail, not only with SVHS tapes, but also conventional VHS recordings, that's why I continue to keep (and view) VHS tapes rather than watch the DVD backups.
I would never consider using anything but SP mode, unless the source is more than 2 hours long, and then I'd be forced to use LP/3h mode (which requires a hack with most 5005s). -tac7

[samijubal]

I think the DVD copies look better than the VHS tapes, but I never go over SP on any recordings. With high quality discs 25-30 cents each, I just can't see skimping on quality. People say they can't tell a difference between 2 and 4 hours, I don't know what they use as a source or play back on, but I can see a huge difference on my equipment.

[bevills1]

Maybe my VCR is not high enough quality to best watch the original VHS if what tac7 said is true. Ocasionally I use VCD or SVCD if I want to record just a single 30 minute program. Can anybody tell me what difference can be seen between VCD and SVCD as well as how quality compares to DVDR recordings?

[Marvingj]

VCD stands for Video Compact Disc and is basically a CD that contains moving pictures and sound. If you're familiar with regular audio CDs, then you will know what a VCD looks like. A VCD has the capacity to hold up to 74/80 minutes (on 650MB/700MB CDs respectively) of full-motion video along with quality stereo sound. VCD's use a compression standard called MPEG-1 to store the video and audio. A VCD can be played on almost all standalone DVD Players and of course on computers with a DVD-ROM or CD-ROM drive and a software-based decoder/player. The quality of a VCD is similar, but usually slightly better than VHS tape-based Movies. The VCD Technical Specification describes the format as 352x576 pixels (PAL) or 352x480 pixels (NTSC) with a Constant Bit Rate (CBR) of 1100 kbit/s. Audio data is a single 224 kbit/s CBR MP2 (MPEG-1 Layer 2) stream.

SVCD stands for Super Video CD. A SVCD is like a VCD but the video is stored in MPEG-2 variable bit-rate format (like DVD Movies) and is a higher resolution. A SVCD can contain between 35 and 80 minutes per disc (740 MB on a 74 min CD and 800 MB on 80 min CD) and therefore most full-length movies are split between 2 or 3 CDs. The quality is worse than DVD but better than VCD or VHS. SVCD can also supports up to 4 subtitle streams. The SVCD Technical Specification describes the format as 480x576 pixels (PAL) or 480x480 pixels (NTSC) with a CBR of 2500 kbit/s. Up to 4 MP2 audio streams can be multiplexed on an SVCD allowing for multiple languages on a single disc.

(X)(S)VCD is an "out of spec" VCD or SVCD. There is no STANDARD for this format, unlike those defined for VCD and SVCD. Most standalone DVD Players cannot play them without lots of hacking/freezing (or not at all), mostly because of the higher bit-rate that is often required, needing faster CDR/W reading capabilities than the DVD player can muster.

XVCD stands for eXtendedVCD and is an extension of VCD 2.0. It tries to use the full power from the chip of the standalone DVD player. The final quality is somewhere between VCD 2.0 and SVCD. XVCD uses, like VCD, MPEG-1 but it is possible to raise the bitrate to 3.5 MBit/s and therefore use a higher resolution. It is, however, impossible to use multiple audio streams (multi-language) or subtitles with this format.

XSVCD stands for eXtendedSVCD. It is also designed to use the full power of the chip in a standalone DVD player. This format produces quality somewhere between SVCD and DVD. XSVCD uses, like SVCD above, MPEG2 encoding - but it is possible to raise the bitrate to 9.8 MBit/s and use a much higher resolution. It is still possible to use multiple audio streams (up to 4) and subtitles with this format.

[LCSHG]

This is for the ilo unit but is much the same as the LiteOn

I agree with most of what lordsmurf has said, except that about the LSI chip set in the LiteOn/ilo compared to a JVC.

First hack the 5005 [if not already] This site

http://ncc2315.com/ilo/

This will give you a LP 3hr mode

HQ 1hr I don’t use it as for me it’s a waste of space

SP 2hr Very good I use it if the program I want will fit

LP 3hr Very Good I do most recording here. I have not found anyone that can see a
Difference between SP

EP 4hr Good, if one looks carefully a loss of detail is present but most do not notice.

SLP 6hr Not good but OK. I only use it on rare occasions

So far I have not had a problem with any artifacts
I did use the Just fit option in timer record [it is much like a vavible bitrate in the Pioneer and I belive the JVC] but the actual bit rate was so close to a LP or EP one that I gave it up

My Opinion


PS
I believe that you will find that while many VCRs Have 4 and 6 heads the are used in recording all VCR that I know of use 2 heads for play

[lordsmurf]

. Are the jaggy lines on cartoon recordings seen only on computer,

This has nothing to do with a computer. On any viewing device, you will see jaggy lines on your video. Live action may be a tad harder to spot (yet still very visible), so for non-believers, do a cartoon, it's easier to see right away.

Deinterlaced removes every other lines of picture data. It's awful looking.

That's what many VCDs look like, especially poorly made homemade ones.

[deadskullz]

As a new DVD Recorder user I have found 1 - 2 hours is acceptable to me that would be mode recording Mode 1 & Recording Mode 2 I find Mode 2x or higher which would be like 3 or more hours is more blocky or pixelated. But then again I am picky when it comes to quality I copy DVD2DVD+R because I don't have a computer. I also use DVD Red Pro inline with DVD Player when I copy my movies.

[bevills1]

Is your recorder dual layer? If not, then you're limited to shorter DVDs or using more than one 4.7 GB disk.