Pioneer Ends DVD Recorder Development

[Robbins1940]

Music companies didn't "abandon" LPs or cassettes until the sales in those items were <5% of general sales. IOW, the consumer had already voted it out. I don't know where you're getting your numbers Robbins1940, but DVD's are still king of the roost. Only reason H'wood is wanting to move on is they want a better profit margin (less discounting, premium cache, etc.).

I am in agreement with TBoneit's remarks.

Scott

LD might have been abandoned by the big boys but it is enjoying something of a renassiance on Ebay. You can't beat the original Star Wars trilogy on LD even if it does mean changing discs every hour or 2 lol.

[oldandinthe way]

The studios will not abandon DVD for some time.

Why? -

1-Because commodity BD and HD-DVD players do not exist. And it is quite conceivable that both SONY and Toshiba will do their best to protect their intellectual property and keep the chip makers and their reference designs at bay. This has been a key factor in driving the DVDPlayer/recorder price drops.

2-Because if piracy is a problem for the studios now, the abandonment of the format would generate an major increase in the number of pirated titles available. Nature abhors a vacuum.

As for Pioneer's decision to leave an unprofitable business - good for them. DVD recorders have not been good sellers. The Wall Street Journal reported on the price free-fall due to poor sales a couple of months back. The low end recorders are based on chipset reference designs, are easy enough to use and still don't appeal to the larger market. Perhaps this is because of the ease of copying DVDs on a PC.

[Frobozz]

[quote="ntscuser"]

That didn't stop studios abandoning vinyl discs and musicassettes in favour of CD's with much higher profit margins.

CDs are much cheaper to produce than vinyl or cassettes. I doubt that production of HD/Blu-Ray be cheaper than DVD.

People switched to CDs when the players became reasonably affordable. What the average consumer liked is the convenience and durability of the format. The manufacturers were eager to see us switch because the production of CD media is so much less costly to them. Now that iPods are taking over they won't even have to make CDs which is cheaper for them still.

In the future there won't be any discs at all regardless of format. Round media isn't necessary to watch or store HDTV.

[Robbins1940]

[QUOTE="Frobozz"]

That didn't stop studios abandoning vinyl discs and musicassettes in favour of CD's with much higher profit margins.

CDs are much cheaper to produce than vinyl or cassettes. I doubt that production of HD/Blu-Ray be cheaper than DVD.

People switched to CDs when the players became reasonably affordable. What the average consumer liked is the convenience and durability of the format. The manufacturers were eager to see us switch because the production of CD media is so much less costly to them. Now that iPods are taking over they won't even have to make CDs which is cheaper for them still.

In the future there won't be any discs at all regardless of format. Round media isn't necessary to watch or store HDTV.

Is that why new CD releases cost nearly £20 GBP?

[samijubal]

Adjusting for currency exchange between dollars and pounds, they aren't near that much here. Are you saying you'd rather go back to LPs and cassettes? I'll pass on that one.

[Robbins1940]

Adjusting for currency exchange between dollars and pounds, they aren't near that much here. Are you saying you'd rather go back to LPs and cassettes? I'll pass on that one.

The LPs were about the £9.99 GBP mark before CD replaced them in the shops through HMV and Virgin in Newcastle(England) still sell new vinyls(mostly dance LPs).

[Frobozz]

Is that why new CD releases cost nearly £20 GBP?

You know I'm referring to the manufacturing cost and not the retail price. The retail price for CDs doesn't make sense because I can buy a concert DVD cheaper than buying a CD of the same concert (with fewer tracks). But my point is that low manufacturing costs added to the industry's appeal to the CD format and I don't think that same appeal will be true with the Hi-Def DVD formats compared with DVD.

[ROF]

VHS tapes can still be bought almost a decade after DVDs introduction, DVD isn't going anywhere in the near future. There are far more DVD players than there ever were laserdisc players, people would pitch a fit if they couldn't get discs to put in them. Laserdiscs were a niche market, DVD isn't.

Where? I can not buy VHS tapes anywhere within 100 mile radius. I can buy them for online retailers but walmart don't have them, target don't have them, video city don't have them, blockbuster don't have them. Nobody sells them anymore. Our local walmart doesn't even sell VCRs anymore. If you want a VHS you need to buy a DVD player that has a VHS slot built into the same unit and they only have one of them. Circuit city is the same way although you can catalog order a VHS unit for $119.

[Robbins1940]

Is that why new CD releases cost nearly £20 GBP?

You know I'm referring to the manufacturing cost and not the retail price. The retail price for CDs doesn't make sense because I can buy a concert DVD cheaper than buying a CD of the same concert (with fewer tracks). But my point is that low manufacturing costs added to the industry's appeal to the CD format and I don't think that same appeal will be true with the Hi-Def DVD formats compared with DVD.

They ditched LP and switched to CD because they could make more money. Greed. It was the same with LD. LD releases might have cost twice or tripple what the VHS version was but you were getting a crystal clear picture(near broadcast quality) plus amazing sound and no problems with the odd pixalation and sound dropouts unlike DVD and no problems with cheap DVD players having difficulties playing a DVD.

The machines may have cost a small fortune to own but at least you knew you were getting a product that was guaranteed to work and the Pioneer LD players were built to last. I bet a machine made in 1985 still works fine today unlike todays machines where you are lucky if it lasts 5 years let alone 20.

[samijubal]

I've used 4 different laserdisc players, not one of them had anywhere near the picture quality of DVDs. You must be using some sorry DVD players.

[Robbins1940]

I've used 4 different laserdisc players, not one of them had anywhere near the picture quality of DVDs. You must be using some sorry DVD players.

You must have had some crappy pressed laserdiscs then because a laserdisc pressed from a master that is from good quality will out perform DVD and a LD won't get stuck because the DVD has been poorly mastered or has a software fault.

Looks like we will have to disagree on this.

[samijubal]

VHS tapes can still be bought almost a decade after DVDs introduction, DVD isn't going anywhere in the near future. There are far more DVD players than there ever were laserdisc players, people would pitch a fit if they couldn't get discs to put in them. Laserdiscs were a niche market, DVD isn't.

Where? I can not buy VHS tapes anywhere within 100 mile radius. I can buy them for online retailers but walmart don't have them, target don't have them, video city don't have them, blockbuster don't have them. Nobody sells them anymore. Our local walmart doesn't even sell VCRs anymore. If you want a VHS you need to buy a DVD player that has a VHS slot built into the same unit and they only have one of them. Circuit city is the same way although you can catalog order a VHS unit for $119.

Media Play near me has VHS tapes. Like you said they can be bought online. As of a few years ago, beta tapes could be bought online though the format was abandoned close to 2 decades ago. VHS quit being sold because DVD sales took off and people weren't buying VHS. The same isn't going to happen with HD-DVD. Most people aren't picky enough to invest all that cash for better picture quality. The bottom line is DVD is here to stay for the foreseeable future.

[samijubal]

I've used 4 different laserdisc players, not one of them had anywhere near the picture quality of DVDs. You must be using some sorry DVD players.

You must have had some crappy pressed laserdiscs then because a laserdisc pressed from a master that is from good quality will out perform DVD and a LD won't get stuck because the DVD has been poorly mastered or has a software fault.

Looks like we will have to disagree on this.

I've got over 100 laserdiscs, not one of them is close to the quality of a DVD. I've had zero problems with DVDs getting stuck. You must have a crappy player, which would explain the picture quality.

[Robbins1940]

I've used 4 different laserdisc players, not one of them had anywhere near the picture quality of DVDs. You must be using some sorry DVD players.

You must have had some crappy pressed laserdiscs then because a laserdisc pressed from a master that is from good quality will out perform DVD and a LD won't get stuck because the DVD has been poorly mastered or has a software fault.

Looks like we will have to disagree on this.

I've got over 100 laserdiscs, not one of them is close to the quality of a DVD. I've had zero problems with DVDs getting stuck. You must have a crappy player, which would explain the picture quality.

I wouldn't call a £250 DVD recorder crap and it is a Pioneer too.

What LD machines have you got? I had the CLD-2700, CLD-D925 and the CLD-S315(hoping to get the DVL-919E off Ebay soon) and all 3 machines put out a perfect picture. Jurassic Park(CAV) looks great on LD. I tend to use S-Video and audio cables not a nasty cheapy scart cable. Will look crap if you are using composit cable.

[BogieV]

Ohhhh, cmon everybody - LDs vs.CDs, vinyl etc. war or what.

Pioneer is going down in its own majour field! Just like Dual was the king of the turntables we have another top specialist giving up possitions because of the cruel reality.

I don't think ther is perfect product or all have to get 100% from certain brand. Actually I don't like much even the SP quality from tuner on my Pioneer 530H. But it is very solid product - easy to work with and with exseptional sound quality.
In Japan the biger model was praised exactly for the sound.
It is a lost for the geek comunity if Pioneer really stops recorder development

[ROF]

Hasn't anyone been reading? DVD is on it's way out whether you want it to or not.

There are new delivery methods for content and now there is a new larger storage media for it. Is DVD dead? not by a long shot but come this time next year HD will have made it's way into alot of consumers homes. Making DVD another has been media format. There are still people who use tape to view their media.

Pioneer is smart to get out now. In this way they can focus on the future and stop promoting the past.

[Cornucopia]

Make that 5 years and you might be right.

Scott

[samijubal]

Make that 5 years and you might be right.

Scott

A minimum of.

[samijubal]

I've used 4 different laserdisc players, not one of them had anywhere near the picture quality of DVDs. You must be using some sorry DVD players.

You must have had some crappy pressed laserdiscs then because a laserdisc pressed from a master that is from good quality will out perform DVD and a LD won't get stuck because the DVD has been poorly mastered or has a software fault.

Looks like we will have to disagree on this.

I've got over 100 laserdiscs, not one of them is close to the quality of a DVD. I've had zero problems with DVDs getting stuck. You must have a crappy player, which would explain the picture quality.

I wouldn't call a £250 DVD recorder crap and it is a Pioneer too.

What LD machines have you got? I had the CLD-2700, CLD-D925 and the CLD-S315(hoping to get the DVL-919E off Ebay soon) and all 3 machines put out a perfect picture. Jurassic Park(CAV) looks great on LD. I tend to use S-Video and audio cables not a nasty cheapy scart cable. Will look crap if you are using composit cable.

I don't have model numbers, because I don't use them anymore. Fact is all of them died after very little use. One was Sony, one was Panasonic and 2 were Pioneer. We don't use scart over here. All were connected with s-video, same as the DVD player.

[oldandinthe way]

VHS isn't dead. Just had a change of distribution channel - yard sales, thrift shops, flea markets and Ebay.

Anything available on DVD can be had on VHS and a lot of stuff that hasn't been released on DVD too.

There is so much out there that its no wonder that enforcement appears to be non-existant.

Its really too bad I lack the space for any VHS tapes.

[Robbins1940]

And like I said LD is enjoying something of a renaissance on Ebay.

samijubal Sony LD players were known to be bad. Nobody in their right minds who knew would never have purchased a LD machine from Sony. They were useless in making LD players that would work. Do you still have those 100 lasers? You should sell them in Ebay. Depending on the title you will get a few bob for them.

[terjeber]

I've used 4 different laserdisc players, not one of them had anywhere near the picture quality of DVDs. You must be using some sorry DVD players.

You must have had some crappy pressed laserdiscs then because a laserdisc pressed from a master that is from good quality will out perform DVD and a LD won't get stuck because the DVD has been poorly mastered or has a software fault.

Now that is a dumb argument if I have ever seen one. You are essentially saying that a well made LD is better than a poorly made DVD, and that proves that LD outperforms DVD.

A lot of LDs were poorly made, and they will perform poorly on any LD player. LD is also an analoge format, which means that a great LD will look great on a great player, but crappy on on a bad LD player. In other words, the quality of your LD movie will depend on your disk and your player. For DVD that isn't really the case, DVD quality will vary less with the player, but obviously a poorly mastered DVD will look crappy on any player. There are exceptions, but variance in DVD players is far less than in LD players.

Yes, early DVDs often didn't do too well, but that is less and less of an issue. Today a decent budget DVD has been frame-by-frame encoded, blocking and banding isn't really an issue (on these movies) etc. With the higher resolution of DVD, there is no reason a DVD should trail an LD (which has lower resolution) in quality.

[Robbins1940]

What was wrong with analogue?

There was no pixelation problems with LD. Also if it wasn't for LD you would never have had CD, AC-3, DTS and other digital audio sound formats.

DVD is only 19% better than LD. LD was capable of 440 lines and DVD is 500 lines(PAL).

[budz]

I've been slowly selling my laserdisc collection to the local book and records shops. I had a Sony laserdisc player that broke twice in it's short lifespan. The 2nd time Sony told me it would cost over $300.00 to repair it because of the laser. I never repaired it & it collected dust sitting on the entertainment rack.

I'm glad to hear Pioneer isn't getting out of the dvd business. With the world of high tech who knows what will happen. As the old saying goes, "MONEY TALKS, BULL SHIT WALKS".

[terjeber]

What was wrong with analogue?

There was no pixelation problems with LD. Also if it wasn't for LD you would never have had CD, AC-3, DTS and other digital audio sound formats.

DVD is only 19% better than LD. LD was capable of 440 lines and DVD is 500 lines(PAL).

Nothing wrong with analog apart from the fact that an analog format means that you get quality variance in both disk and player. A good analog disk will look bad on a bad player. On conformant players you will have less quality variance when the format is digital. The quality will still (of course) vary with your TV.

You are correct that there was no pixelation problem with LDs but that is also the case with good DVDs. A well mastered DVD will not suffer pixelation problems.

As to max number of lines lines, just to nit pick, NTSC LD is 400, NTSC DVD is 480. PAL LD is 440, PAL DVD is 576.

[samijubal]

Also with LD being analog, scratches on the discs means distortion in the picture. Scratches don't affect DVDs until it's bad enough to skip.

[ROF]

One trip to an electronics store and you will immediately see that alot of people are quite interested in high definition. You may not be but most people are. This is what will drive the stake into DVD. It just can't compete with newer offerings. Some people may be satisfied with their cancer causing 25" CRT screen but the majority of purchasers are buying Projector, LCD, or Plasma high definition sets. Visit a store, listen to what customers are asking about and you will see that DVD has a limited life span. Most consumers will want to get the most out of their purchase. DVD can't provide that with a newer viewing screen.

[samijubal]

There are millions more people sitting at home watching their analog TVs they've had for 10 years or more. You don't see them in electronics stores because they are happy with what they have. There are still many people that have TVs with only a coax connector that need to get RF modulators to use a DVD player, I see it in other forums all the time. All electronics have a limited life span. You make it sound like DVD is going to be gone in 6 months, not going to happen, 10 years, probably.

[ROF]

I still have a Black and White U-13 Dial Channel TV too but I don't think I could buy it today or sell it for more than the price of a DVD movie. If you read my posts I have said DVD isn't going to simply dry up overnight. There are simply too many people who own it for it disappear quickly. What you will see is more and more manfacturers of equipment stop production and move on to better and newer consumer products.

[TBoneit]

ROF, Lets see why I won't be buying these.

Projector = High Maint costs (Bulb usually)
Plasma = Short Life as they lose brightness
LCD = Need to buy expensive to get decent viewing angle and fast enough pixels. Back liight costs to repair, inverter can go bad etc.
RPTV, New models may be better but as I recall older models needed periodic adjustments.

For my usage pattern the 32" TV on the swivel base fits my needs the best.

I stand ready to be corrected of course.

But for what my life experience shows me a picture tube model is in my future unless they discontinue them, a not impossible scenario.