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  1. Member
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    Originally Posted by manono
    Hi-

    I went back later on and got the other rar. Nice looking video there. You got all the dupes out, as near as I can tell. One thing, though. You encoded it as progressive, and therefore you should be using zigzag scanning, rather than the alternate scanning you used. Alternate scanning is for interlaced encoding. I don't know if it's a big deal or not, but just thought you should know.

    Also, personally, I'd use a much higher max bitrate than 8000. but there are plenty around here that would disagree.
    You're right. I did select zigzag. How'd you know that?

    Guess I overlooked that one. I'll have to take a look at the settings again.

    The original bitrate setting was 2000-9000, but I decided to back down the high end to 8000 because sometimes when I take it into TMPGEnc DVD Author, it protests and says that it needs to make a non-standard DVD. Not that CCE SP seems to pay attention to that; the bitrate control seems to be somewhat liberal, bordering on nonexistent. They play all right, though.

    I still have the .tp files for the season finale. I'll try making the changes you suggest and re-rendering them.

    I also figured out that apparently 1080i encodes go faster in TMPGEnc Xpress 3.x. A simple 5-minute segment of Criminal Minds with no other fast motion than Abraham Benrubi being restrained towards the end of it was estimated to take almost eight hours in CCE. TMPGEnc only took 40 minutes, and the quality was comparable. Now, I know he's a big dude, but c'mon. He can't be responsible for seven hours of extra rendering time.

    One thing I did notice is that with using DGIndex, I still have noticeable sync errors every so often, despite the corrections in delaycut. But for the most part, it appears to be 100% successful.
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  2. Hi-

    You're right. I did select zigzag. How'd you know that?

    Hehe, big brother is watching you. I used Bitrate Viewer. Restream as well as other apps can also tell you.

    To keep from making mistakes of that kind, I'd suggest setting up templates in CCE. Among many others, I have both a progressive and an interlaced template. The progressive one I made default, and it always opens to that one, but it's easy to click on one of the others and have the basic settings all correct (assuming you set them up correctly in the first place). That way you have only to click on the template for the kind of video you're encoding, and then maybe just adjust the bitrates, matrix (if you use them), 4:3 or 16:9, and maybe that's about it.

    Not that CCE SP seems to pay attention to that; the bitrate control seems to be somewhat liberal, bordering on nonexistent.

    Are you saying that TDA might complain if you use a 9000 max bitrate? The audio's not LPCM, right, but some kind of AC3? Lost was DD 2.0@384. I agree that with high average bitrates CCE sometimes goes over the limit you set, but only by a little bit. Usually though, I find that CCE is very good about honoring the bitrates. Complaining when you open the files in TDA means nothing. It can only get buffer underruns during the actual muxing. I don't use TDA, but I would just ignore any warnings when opening the files. The only thing it should be doing is rejecting them if they're non-compliant in some way. And like I said, warnings can be ignored.
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  3. Member
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    I took your advice and re-rendered one of the "Lost" episodes, and I did notice an increase in clarity in a few scenes. I also backed down on the amount of sharpening in the AVISynth script, and the end result was still highly watchable. And, even better, the average bitrate is almost at 6000, right where I want it.

    I took the files into TDA Pro 2, and it accepted them without protest. It even accepted files that had Dolby Digital 2.0 that turned into 5.1 later in the file--something regular TDA threw shit-fits about.
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  4. Hi-

    Lost has all those outdoors jungle scenes which are very complex and difficult to encode. If you set your max bitrate too low, then those scenes which can use the bits will degrade significantly. At the least you'll get mosquito noise around hard edges, but you're also liable to get color smearing, macroblocking, and a general blurriness or lack of detail. Of course, if the broadcast didn't provide high enough average and max bitrates, then there's not a whole lot you can do to maintain quality.

    Anyway, I guess you've learned how to return your broadcast captures to their original framerate now. Good going.
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  5. Guest34343
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    @manono

    You said he erroneously used alternate scan. Then he said "yeah, I used zig-zag, how'd you know?" and you didn't challenge that.

    Does not compute.
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  6. I know it doesn't compute. except by thinking he made a typo, which he must have, because the Progressively encoded video I downloaded had used alternate scanning. I noted to myself his response at the time, but decided to let it pass.
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  7. Guest34343
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    That's what I figured, too.

    Nevertheless, in the interests of intellectual rigor, and just to make sure he doesn't think YOU made a typo...
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  8. Roger, 10-4, you're right.

    The thing is, I've never been very intellectually rigorous. Not as sloppy as some, but not as disciplined as others. But with you to help me up when I stumble, maybe there's hope.
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  9. Guest34343
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    Perhaps, but the Merlot often adversely affects my rigor level. So don't trust me too slavishly.
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  10. Member
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    Okay, now that I've solved my 3:2 issues with 720p shows, now I'm turning to 1080i.

    I am still unable to resolve the issue of greatly increased encoding times in CCE SP. With the converted 720p files, I can usually count on rendering times being 3-3 1/2 times the segment running time, but a five-minute 1080i downconversion soars to eight or nine hours!

    Huh?

    This is the script that I'm using:

    # Modify the path so that it finds your decomb dll file #
    LoadPlugin("c:\program files\AVISynth 2.5\plugins\decomb.dll")

    # Modify the path so that it finds your MPEG2DEC dll file #
    LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\AVISynth 2.5\plugins\DGDecode.dll")
    LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\AVISynth 2.5\plugins\BT709ToBT601.dll")

    # Modify the path so that it finds the d2v file you created using dvd2avi #
    MPEG2Source("E:\Video\RawCaptures\Drew Carey Show--The Dog and Pony Show (Pt1).d2v")

    BT709ToBT601()

    # This is the IVTC line. Consult your decomb readme file for tweaking #
    Telecide(guide=1)

    # Leave this alone. This will remove one out of every five frames, converting the fps to 24 fps #
    Decimate(cycle=5,mode=3,threshold=0,quality=3)
    LanczosResize(720, 480)
    Sharpen(0.7)

    Also attached are screenshots of the settings I'm using in CCE SP

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  11. Member
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    Screenshot #2

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  12. Member
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    And the Final screenshot...

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  13. Hi-

    Not real sure why the encoding times jump so much, but I do have some comments.

    1. Why are you converting to BT601? CCE is just going to convert it back again. What colorimetry (is that the right word) is being captured?

    2. The AviSynth Sharpen filter isn't very good. Also, it's super slow. If you want to use a sharpener (not sure why you would, as you're downsizing from a higher resolution and it should be quite sharp already), then I would recommend the AviSynth function LimitedSharpenFaster (which isn't very fast either):

    http://www.avisynth.org/LimitedSharpen

    Dumping the sharpener entirely will speed things up considerably.

    3. The first screen shot shows you performing an IVTC in CCE. Why, since you're already doing it in AviSynth? The first screenshot shows you have the "For DVD" box checked. I don't check it, as I make sure it's DVD compliant in the script, as yours is already.

    4. The 3rd screenshot shows "Progressive Frame" unchecked. If you're encoding progressively, it should be checked. It also shows the "Fades On a Static Scene" unchecked. This should be checked in my opinion. That was one of the criticisms of the earlier CCE 2.50, that fade ins/outs got all pixely. Checking that box gives extra bits during fades (I think). It shows "Block Scan Order' as automatic. In my progressive template, I set it for zig-zag. Good, you turned off the default filtering. Not many people know about that.

    5. You didn't show the quantization matrix screen, so I assume you have it at default. One way to boost the quality, but also the file size, when doing CQ encoding, is to give it a better matrix.

    I don't think I'm explaining the huge jump in encoding time. Maybe neuron2 will come back and give you the benefit of his expertise. Capturing is his thing, or one of them. Maybe some others will see this and have something more intelligent to say.
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  14. Member
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    Originally Posted by manono
    Hi-

    Not real sure why the encoding times jump so much, but I do have some comments.

    1. Why are you converting to BT601? CCE is just going to convert it back again. What colorimetry (is that the right word) is being captured?

    2. The AviSynth Sharpen filter isn't very good. Also, it's super slow. If you want to use a sharpener (not sure why you would, as you're downsizing from a higher resolution and it should be quite sharp already), then I would recommend the AviSynth function LimitedSharpenFaster (which isn't very fast either):

    http://www.avisynth.org/LimitedSharpen

    Dumping the sharpener entirely will speed things up considerably.

    3. The first screen shot shows you performing an IVTC in CCE. Why, since you're already doing it in AviSynth? The first screenshot shows you have the "For DV" box checked. I don't check it, as I make sure it's DVD compliant in the script, as yours is already.

    4. The 3rd screenshot shows "Progressive Frame" unchecked. If you're encoding progressively, it should be checked. It also shows the "Fades On a Static Scene" unchecked. This should be checked in my opinion. That was one of the criticisms of the earlier CCE 2.50, that fade ins/outs got all pixely. Checking that box gives extra bits during fades (I think). It shows "Block Scan Order' as automatic. In my progressive template, I set it for zig-zag. Good, you turned off the default filtering. Not many people know about that.

    5. You didn't show the quantization matrix screen, so I assume you have it at default. One way to boost the quality, but also the file size, when doing CQ encoding, is to give it a better matrix.

    I don't think I'm explaining the huge jump in encoding time. Maybe neuron2 will come back and give you the benefit of his expertise. Capturing is his thing, or one of them. Maybe some others will see this and have something more intelligent to say.
    Your advice was quite helpful.

    I dumped the BT601 conversion in the script as well as the sharpen. I had backed it down to 0.4 previously, but the 601 was in there because I had heard that it would keep my files from being overly dark.

    I also made the alterations in the CCE settings. I think that I had started modifying them, but just didn't finish before I took the screenshots. I'm using the "Standard" quantization matrix because I had read that that usually has better results than the MPEG Standard matrix.

    Right now the encode is happening, and it appears that there's a great speed increase. It's not at the same speed as the 720p encode, but it's definitely an improvement.

    I'm also going to try the render using 2:3 pulldown instead of 3:2, since I've heard that that is how most transfers are done nowadays.
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  15. Hi-

    I was reading up on colorimetry. The whole subject gives me a headache. I suppose you could do some comparisons with pics of encodes, one with BT709ToBT601() in the script and one without, to see if there's a difference. It's true that CCE will encode for BT.709. It's true that almost all the R1 DVDs I've seen use BT.709. DVDs from "foreign" DVD production houses often use BT.601. Wanting to keep your videos from darkening is a worthy goal, for sure. I may have to take back my recommendation that you not use the line in your script. Here's the earliest mention I could find of the filter:

    http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=292043&highlight=BT709ToBT601%28%29#post292043

    Better people than I can guide you further on the use of that filter. If you do a search on that filter in the AviSynth Forum at Doom9, you'll find other references to it.

    I'm using the "Standard" quantization matrix because I had read that that usually has better results than the MPEG Standard matrix.

    I'm not sure in what sense the Standard Matrix is better than the MPEG Standard Matrix. I don't like either very much, but the MPEG Standard Matrix does retain more detail. and sharpness, while the Standard Matrix compresses better. If you check the matrices used in your favorite good quality DVDs, you'll find that they use neither matrix, but much better ones. I don't know what matrices are used in the TV broadcasts, but it should be easy enough for you to find out. To use matrices other than the ones included with CCE, you'll have to type them in and save them. This is a subject about which I do know a little something, thanks at least partly to neuron2, who made it an easy matter to extract the quantization matrices with his DGIndex.

    It's not at the same speed as the 720p encode, but it's definitely an improvement.

    Maybe because of the higher resolution with which you're starting? I don't know; just guessing.

    I'm also going to try the render using 2:3 pulldown instead of 3:2, since I've heard that that is how most transfers are done nowadays.

    While it's true that most pulldown is 2:3 Pulldown, the practical effect on your encodes will be nil.
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  16. Member
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    I took a look at that option and tried to enter in the matrices that I got from DGIndex for the actual HD transport stream, but the numbers got a little too large at some point, and it wouldn't take them.

    So I decided to rip a section from "Saving Private Ryan" that had a lot of fast motion and entered in the matrix from that. I'm going to try and encode a segment of "24" using that matrix to see what it does.

    As far as the increased resolution, all of the files are resized to 720x480, so I'm not sure if that would be it.
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  17. Member vhelp's Avatar
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    A slight mod of your original plan, ?? ..

    CubDukat, the next time you start another HD capturing session, please
    consider doing with so with a setup for 720 x 480 in your software and
    device confugures. This way, you can rule out any "external-type" problems
    with filters like resizing, for instance.

    I'm not sure what the setup screen would look like, but on my HDTV Receiver,
    The only TWO (selection) that would produce readable imaging are:

    ** Composite/S-Video
    ** Component 480i

    Perhaps your software has similar setup, and you could use one of those
    to capture your videos via .TS and then proceed with your original plans.

    Then, once you have 3:2 Pulldown plans working, you could try and
    change to a higher resolution.

    Please, this is just a suggestion, unless I missed something.

    -vhelp 3994
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  18. Member
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    The capture is OTA HDTV coming from an HDTV tuner card. It only captures in whatever format the station is broadcasting (1080i, 480i or 720p), so unfortunately resizing is a necessary evil.

    At least until HD-DVD/Blu-Ray authoring software becomes more widely available, anyway.

    For the time being, I'm making progressive encodes from 720p and interlaced from 1080i/480i until I can figure out why 1080i encodes are taking so much longer in CCE.

    I downloaded a program called AVSEdit that helps you create scripts for AVISynth even if you barely know enough to be dangerous. I'll be experimenting with different scripts to see if I can get around the rendering time issue.
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    CubDukat, what AVISynth script did you finally use on your 720P 'Lost' episodes, to return them to 24fps?
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    This is a copy of the script I'm using. I got it from one of the guides to encoding in x.264 and MeGUI, but it also worked for converting 720p HDTV OTA streams to something more DVD-friendly:

    # PLUGINS
    LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\AVISynth 2.5\plugins\DGDecode.dll")
    LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\AVISynth 2.5\plugins\TIVTC.dll")
    LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\AVISynth 2.5\plugins\FDecimate.dll")

    # SOURCE
    MPEG2Source("E:\Video\RawCaptures\The Nine--Outsiders.d2v")

    # IVTC
    #Telecide(guide=1).Decimate()

    #Use Fdecimate when source is 720P
    FDecimate(rate=23.976,threshold=0.8)

    # CROPPING & RESIZING
    Lanczos4Resize(720,480)

    The speed's quite respectable, and the quality is excellent. The 1080i script I'm using, however, isn't nearly as fast, but it too has excellent quality. In fact, it solved a problem I was having with my downconversions--moire patterns appearing around text in end credits.

    # PLUGINS
    LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\AVISynth 2.5\plugins\dgdecode.dll")
    LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\AVISynth 2.5\plugins\TIVTC.dll")
    LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\AVISynth 2.5\plugins\GreedyHMA.dll")
    #LoadPlugin("C:\path\to\FDecimate.dll")
    #LoadPlugin("D:\Download\degrainmedian08\degrainme dian.dll")

    # SOURCE
    MPEG2Source("E:\Video\RawCaptures\ER--Scoop and Run.d2v")

    # IVTC TIVTC
    tfm(d2v="E:\Video\RawCaptures\ER--Scoop and Run.d2v").tdecimate(hybrid=1)

    #Use Fdecimate when source is 720P
    #FDecimate()

    # CROPPING & RESIZING
    # Note: if the source is 1280x1088 use the secound but if it isnt use the first one
    Lanczos4Resize(720,480)
    #Lanczos4Resize(1280,720,0,0,1280,1080)

    # DENOISING: (if you got noise)
    #DeGrainMedian(limitY=5,limitUV=5,mode=3)

    Note that GreedyHMA is not actually used in this script; I tried using it, but it said that my source material was not in the right colorspace (YUV, I believe). I think it was made for MiniDV-sourced materials. I'll probably do a little more tweaking to make it work, but for right now, you could probably comment it out without any ill effects.

    I forget who was responsible for the original versions of these scripts, but whoever they are, thank you very much. All that was needed on my part was very minor tweaking; I was already getting excellent results before that.
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