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All those hacks lead to other than manufacturers sites. These hacks are not supported by the DVD Player Manufacturers and have been known to cause issues with some players. You will have to try better than that to prove that Philips or any of the other manufacturers fully support unrestricted DVD viewing.Originally Posted by RLT69
You are circumventing a region coding system by doing so. Your DVD-Rom has region settings, all of them do. You must use a hack(illegal to possess in the United States) to make this player region free. Those are two separate violations of the DMCA.Originally Posted by RLT69
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The fact that these hacks work doesn't surprise or alarm you? Why are they there in the first place? You have to leavy part of the blame at the manufacturers for allowing this back door. The manufacturer put it there in the first place!All those hacks lead to other than manufacturers sites. These hacks are not supported by the DVD Player Manufacturers and have been known to cause issues with some players.
Try again comrade. You do not have to hack anything. The dvd-rom by default has no preset region. The user has to set the region of the dvd-rom manually. Thus a US citizen can set the region code to 2 and watch a PAL Region 2 DVD that they purchased from the UK.Your DVD-Rom has region settings, all of them do. You must use a hack(illegal to possess in the United States) to make this player region free.
Again, how does that violate the DMCA?
The US computer manufacturer would have to set the dvd-rom device to region 1 and even then the user is allowed to change it 4 more times before the last change becomes permenant.
Nice try comrade. Welcome capitalism!
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Member
- Mar 2006
- With the other crabapples
I for one believe that region codes promote hacking and piracy.
There are DVDs available in the UK and other countries with limited interest in the USA, If you are a consumer with an interest, you are faced with having to hack your equipment or backup the disk in a manner which makes it playable.
Once you have gained the expertise to do this, you have also gained the skill to make pirate copies.
To date no one has built unbreakable copy protection or region encoding. If you provide enough people with a reason the want to break your protections they will. One must consider the actual consequenses of creating hackers and pirates against the number of people who are prevented from viewing the product.
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I agree 100%, but you must also include cracking of copy protection as well. Without these protections in place there would be no need for hacking and piracy would be limited as it was back in the distant past. All these new protection serve up a new desire to make something do something it wasn't original intended to do. The more protections put into place the greater increase in piracy and hacking which in turn brings about further protections and higher prices. Anybody wonder why DVDs are $20-$30 and video games are $50-$70 average? Because selling them for any less would mean less profit and increased piracy. Some people are still under the assumption that if you reduce the price you reduce piracy. This is false in that most piracy occurs from people who have no intent to buy the material but would gladly view it for free. These protections of media do indeed promote increases in hacking and piracy.Originally Posted by oldandinthe way
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Region coding does not promote hacking or piracy anymore so than the criminal code of Canada (or whatever country your from) promotes murder and rape. You (oldandintheway) have it backwards, the crime was being committed before the law was put into place. Region coding was a legitimate response to criminal enterprise however unsuccessful it (region coding) was.
RLT69-just because ROF supports an unpopular position why does that make him a comrade? Region Coding is the ultimate in Capitalism-what are the golden rules for a capitalist? Protect your profit, increase your profit, and create new profit where it didn't exist before...I admire a business that can sell the same thing over and over again.
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Region coding does promote hacking. There are groups of people whose sole purpose is to go to school during the day and write region-free hacks in their evening hours. Without region coding these people might actually do their homework. Who knows they may even incorporate their hacking into a homework project.Originally Posted by discguy001
A comrade is someone who shares the same views as the person calling the person a comrade. This is why I believe RLT69 is referring to me as comrade. While disagreeing with me openly he and I both disagree with the fact the region coding exists at all. Is it unpopular to not support region coding? I know I don't support it in the least. It does exist and is the right of the copyright owner to do as they wish with their material. It is what supplies them with monies to support them and their families, charities, and wherever else they choose to spend their profits from their sales of copyrighted materials. If they do not wish someone in East Timor to view the material their formatted release provides to UK citizens, so be it. It is their right to do so. I am just glad to see most people don't even know what a region coding is. I can't begin to tell you how many times I've asked customers what region they want me to set their DVD-Rom for? I only ask to see if they know but the blank stare reassures me they have no idea or need to know what I am speaking about. Similiar to when you tell someone about a rootkit. Most people think it's a dentistry tool.
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Why?Originally Posted by discguy001
Is it because they get away with screwing the customer over?Believing yourself to be secure only takes one cracker to dispel your belief.
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No, it means the customer is so appreciative of a product that they will continue to buy the product over and over. If I could just name how many times I have bought some of my music over and over again in multiple formats. I know in the next few years I will be doing so again. The customer is not getting screwed. They have the right to not purchase it again. You have to admire a business that provides such a good product the customer is willing to continue buying the same thing.Originally Posted by Dv8ted2
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Capitalism is about property. Capitalism is about the right to own property. Capitalism is the fact that I walk into a store and purchase a product and walk out of a store and that product is now my property. In a Capitalistic society I can then take that product andRegion Coding is the ultimate in Capitalism-what are the golden rules for a capitalist? Protect your profit, increase your profit, and create new profit where it didn't exist before...I admire a business that can sell the same thing over and over again.
1. sell it to someone for more or less money
2. Give it away
3. Destroy it
4. Do whatever I feel like doing to it.
Region Coding, though seems like a Capitalistic idea, is not. It is a Totalitarian approach at controlling what someone can and cannot do with their property. I purchase a Region 2 DVD from the UK and some organization says I cannot view that item in the United States. That organization is telling me what I can and cannot do with my property.
Nevermind that the store sold it to me in the first place and should not have if it was truly illegal. FYI The United States has guidlines as to what products can and cannot be exported to other countries. Surely the UK and that retailer could abide by similar conditions, if it is illegal to export a region 2 DVD to the United States. Point in fact, it is not.
:P
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@RLT69
How many times do you have to be reminded, you bought the disc, not the contents of it. You own the disc and can do as you see fit. The contents of the disc are not yours and you are therefore limited in what you can do with it.
BTW, Where is this capitalistic soceity you live in?
I have yet to find any place on this planet(earth) that adheres to strictly a specific form of governmental rule. Actually, looking at those different forms of government I am quite glad they are blended together to form a soceity instead of something so stringent as a true categorically defined soceity.
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Member
- Mar 2006
- With the other crabapples
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In a free market, there are no artificial barriers to legal and legitimate commerce.
Region coding is a conscious effort to circumvent the existance of a global market for entertainment.
As such it is particularly anathema, and incites free market forces, will circumvent it, just as they do non-intentional barriers to the market such as NTSC vs. PAL.
The reason it promotes piracy is to a large part due to the commonality of the tools and sources of information for region-free operation with copy-protection breaking.
When dominant companies in a market collude, with or without government sanction to create market barriers, the market reacts.
DCMA differs from other laws in that its purpose exceeds the protection of legitmate rights of the content-provider and infringes their customer rights. It is always companies who cannot succeed in a free market who seek government protections.
As is often the case, in most people's lives LAW is not directly irrelevant, and when law ceases to be irrelevant, their life is turning to crap.
Although it benefits society to make murder a crime, the victim of a murder has received little protection from the law.
Digital content providers have suffered from a herd mentality which has led them to seek legal protections. Yet each increase in the level of protection they receive has failed to stem piracy.
Instead of focusing on increasing the desirability of their product in the marketplace, they seek to inspire fear.
Piracy of entertainment is not new. Anyone who visits yard sales or thrift shops can find ever growing quantities of VHS and audio cassette tapes countaining copyrighted material. It is likely that most of these items haven't been used in years, if viewed at all.
I'd be willing to bet that most of the owners of such copies have not replaced them with the same titles. Why - because tastes change, and fashions change.
If they did replace the item it is with a technology which offers some advantage.
I remember when I owed a computer dealership. Almost every machine which came in for service had a pirated copy of Lotus 1-2-3 on it. When questioned over 90% of the machine owners admitted they did not know how to run Lotus. Did Lotus actually suffer any economic damage?
Do the college students with thousands of MP3's on their hard disks actually listen to them. And just how many do they listen to?
Are the numbers promoted by the RIAA as piracy losses anything other than numbers? Do the MPAA press releases bare any reality to real revenue losses?
I can't prove anything, but my instinct is that the economic costs of "content-protection" exceed the actual loss to content providers by at least one order of magnitude.
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>>>...In a free market, there are no artificial barriers to legal and legitimate commerce.
Region coding is a conscious effort to circumvent the existance of a global market for entertainment...<<<
Absolutely. And the name of the system that promotes a series of artificial barriers to production and trade to maximize profits is correctly called mercantilism, not capitalism. Your message is absolutely on target "OldAndInTheWay", but this subtle difference is important IMO. This debate has been shaped in the media to allow modern day mercantilists to masquerade as "capitalists" and condemn their capitalist, free trade opponents as "socialists".
In any event, region coding will certainly make the new players less desirable and will further hinder the acceptance of any "Hollywood sanctioned" DVD replacement format. My guess is that the true "DVD replacement" will be some non-DRM bearing mass storage device aimed at the business community - something without oppressive licensing issues, etc - that the technologically savvy will adapt to the task of holding their "rips" and "captures". Or perhaps one of the new "Asia only" recorder/player formats will catch on over here, when the alternative is a much pricier and more limited BR or HD-DVD player?
All the best,
Morse
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Actually, I've been trying to run some numbers given out as statistics from various news organizations, marketing firms, etc., because I have a hunch that --totally contrary to what government and most market leaders would have you believe-- PIRACY (of virtual goods) may actually encourage demand to the point where it ADDS TO THE PROFIT of the original content creator! At least on an aggregate level. Try to wrap your brain around that one.Originally Posted by oldandinthe way
Scott
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Member
- Mar 2006
- With the other crabapples
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Cornucopia
It would not surprise me since "word of mouth" promotes the sales of entertainment, and piracy may increase "word of mouth".
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Member
- Mar 2006
- With the other crabapples
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Morse2
Although I don't disagree with your intent or observation, I do feel that debate has been largely absent.
The press releases do as you suggest but press releases and talking points are not debate. In spite of what politicians of both parties indicate with the scripts the major media and other special interests (including "comsumer advocates") provide them.
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Most people I know object to paying for something more than once. Where is this land that you speak of that people love to buy the same object multiple times?Originally Posted by ROFBelieving yourself to be secure only takes one cracker to dispel your belief.
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America for one place.Originally Posted by Dv8ted2
Most of us have bought our favorite movies and music on multiple formats.
For one example, I own Star Wars on Beta Max, VHS(2 Versions), LD, DVD(2 Versions). That is six times purchasing, 4 times purchasing the same thing and later this year I will be buying them again on DVD when the originals(original theatrical releases) are published. That's just one example I am sure hundreds of others in America and elsewhere can point you towards media they have purchased time and time again.
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Hi OldAndInTheWay;
>>>...I do feel that debate has been largely absent.
The press releases do as you suggest but press releases and talking points are not debate. In spite of what politicians of both parties indicate with the scripts the major media and other special interests (including "comsumer advocates") provide them....<<<
Good point! - The 'debate' I was referring to was the debate in fora such as this, rather than the scripted exercises on the Big Media owned "official" outlets. In no way would I want to imply that the mass media was providing a balanced debate, so your correction is very much appreciated! Unfortunately, Big Media shapes even our debate by changing the terminology we use, much as in Orwell's 1984. Change the meanings of the words used and you can win a debate before it starts - as the Hollywood types and their lawyers know all too well.
Keep up the good posts,
Morse
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Member
- Mar 2006
- With the other crabapples
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The debates in venues like this only occaisionally look like debate.
And unfortunately, the audience is small and made up principally of people whose positions on these issues is set.
The general public has neither the interest nor the attention span to pay any attention to any debate.
Unless the debate reaches a much larger number of people, our copyright laws will continue to be reformed until the public domain will have been stolen and we won't be able to watch a movie without a lawyer on retainer.
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Missing the point again. We are not talking about different media formats. discguy001 was speaking about having the same movie released on DVD but in different regions. Dv8ted2 spoke how this was essentially screwing people by having the same thing released over and over again.Most of us have bought our favorite movies and music on multiple formats.
How many people have multiple copies of the same DVD? Precious few I gather.
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How many regions can you possibly live in that region coding would effect you to such a drastic measure? Most customers never leave the region they were born in. The region coding does mess with a very limited number of honest folks, but quite frankly it does serve a purpose and at least 80% of the population doesn't even know what a region code is because it does not effect them.Originally Posted by RLT69Missing the point again. We are not talking about different media formats. discguy001 was speaking about having the same movie released on DVD but in different regions. Dv8ted2 spoke how this was essentially screwing people by having the same thing released over and over again.Most of us have bought our favorite movies and music on multiple formats.
How many people have multiple copies of the same DVD? Precious few I gather.
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ROF.Originally Posted by ROF
Your a complete idiot and I suspect a MPAA stoolie.
Down here in Australia and NZ "ALL" DVD players are sold region free out of the box. Of course in the USA where the MPAA and the like have bought the polititions then that's a different story.. Sell a region free DVD player and the storm troopers will be hunting you down..
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@ROF - next time you are having dinner with Jack, ask him what was on the original Zapruder film
Read my blog here.
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I for one believe that region codes promote profit
Why print all that extra film and ship it around the world at the same time?
With regions you can stagger your worldwide release.
The movie is repacked/shipped and dvd is released later, but you have saved on film production costs.
Do ppl in different parts of the world pay more for extras on dvds or do a flood of cheap movie only dvds sell?
Fancy box, extras and an extra soundtrack let you add a few extra % profit
vs selling more 16:9 movies only at a lower cost?
Region codes are just to look after profits around the world for a very old distribution network lost in the digital age. Why kill it for hd?
http://www.dvd-intelligence.com/main_sections/news_archive/2003_free/2_release_windows.htm
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The flaw in your theory is that there are certain films that never get released here in the US, but yet it will be in the UK. Go figure.Originally Posted by HuxleyI for one believe that region codes promote profit
Why print all that extra film and ship it around the world at the same time?
With regions you can stagger your worldwide release.
The movie is repacked/shipped and dvd is released later, but you have saved on film production costs.
It would make more sense to release it all at the same time all over the world. That would equate to more sales. More sales=more revenue=more profit. I guess they failed business 101.
If you do not give customers what they want, you eventually go bankrupt.Believing yourself to be secure only takes one cracker to dispel your belief.
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Member
- Mar 2006
- With the other crabapples
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Assuming BD or HD-DVD actually achieve market acceptance they will do it at the same time that theatres in the USA will have been forced to upgrade to digital distribution of first-run films at enormous cost.
Region coding is not intended to support an archaic distribution system. It is to create a barrier to free trade. By forcing a difference in the products sold in different regions they can maintain pricing differences.
There are plenty of precedents for such action. Japanese camera makers for many years refused warranty service in the US for cameras purchased abroad.
For those who care about the vocabulary of debate, the camera makers called import of the identical product "grey market" conjuring images of "black market". The only difference in the product was a lower price in other markets.
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The flaw is in your logic. How long does it take sitcoms from US television to reach every market. We usually have a few seasons worth of DVDs before some people even get the original broadcasts. What about music? When a song is released or an album is published is it available worldwide to everyone at the same time? How about video game systems? Computer systems? Games? Software? Telecommunications technology? Online businesses?Originally Posted by Dv8ted2The flaw in your theory is that there are certain films that never get released here in the US, but yet it will be in the UK. Go figure.Originally Posted by HuxleyI for one believe that region codes promote profit
Why print all that extra film and ship it around the world at the same time?
With regions you can stagger your worldwide release.
The movie is repacked/shipped and dvd is released later, but you have saved on film production costs.
It would make more sense to release it all at the same time all over the world. That would equate to more sales. More sales=more revenue=more profit. I guess they failed business 101.
If you do not give customers what they want, you eventually go bankrupt.
Do you see a trend yet? Not everything is released everywhere at the same time. There must be something profitable about staggered releases or not even releasing in certain markets if just about every sector of business is doing it. Business 101 or is it 111 will explain the reasoning why this works and is more profitable than a worldwide release. I suggest you read up on the whys and wherefores.
@guns1inger
I had dinner with Jack two nights ago. We had a good conversation and I know now he is going to enroll in college this fall. Being 20 years old and having spent a year in Africa has done him quite good. He has matured much and I think he is more ready to set his mind to his studies. American history was never his favored subject so I doubt he will be able to answer your question.
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As stated by others you are an idiot. More precisely, your view is incredibly ignorant. Let me give you an example.How many regions can you possibly live in that region coding would effect you to such a drastic measure? Most customers never leave the region they were born in. The region coding does mess with a very limited number of honest folks, but quite frankly it does serve a purpose and at least 80% of the population doesn't even know what a region code is because it does not effect them.
I live in the U.S.A. - region 1. I like the Sci-Fi show Farscape. For some reason distribution of Farscape on DVD was quicker in the U.K. then in America. Thus season 4 in the U.K. was out well before season 4 in America, by about 1 year! I wanted to PURCHASE, season 4 on DVD. I went to Amazon.co.uk Amazon's U.K. store and BOUGHT season 4 on DVD. My DVD player being a multizone DVD player allowed me to watch the Region 2 PAL DVD.
According to you, I am a criminal because I am in violation of the DMCA. According to you I shouldn't be allowed to PURCHASE the Region 2 DVD because the content owner did not want me to see that DVD for one year.
Do you see the problem with region coding? Can you possible understand that the content owner probably did want me to purchase the DVD, that the delay had something to do with DISTRIBUTION. Can you see how Region coding goes against GLOBALIZATION and FREE TRADE. In fact, I would argue that region coding is in serious violations in trade agreeements that the U.S. hold with many countries.
The WTO should look into this. The DMCA could be found in violation of trade agreements and if so the DMCA would be consider ILLEGAL!
Wrap you mind around that one. We live in a global market now.
Welcome to capitalism.
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I was not talking about tv shows. I was talking about movies. I had to get eddie and the cruisers 2 on dvd from another country because at the time, it was not being sold here in the US. It is the artificial scarcity that they create that I have a problem with. There is no need for it.Originally Posted by ROFBelieving yourself to be secure only takes one cracker to dispel your belief.
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Are you purposely this dense?When a song is released or an album is published is it available worldwide to everyone at the same time? How about video game systems? Computer systems? Games? Software? Telecommunications technology? Online businesses?
Back in the day, the 1980s, you saw staggared releases of albums. But that had to do with DISTRIBUTION issues! You know, not have a record company that can distribute your material in a particular country. That was the problem with many independent record labels - they needed a major record label to distribute their artists works, see Mute records relationship with Sire/Reprise/Time-Warner.
But in the 21st century the distribution model has changed. iTunes and Amazon.com allows world wide simultaneous release. No need to wait.
Thus barrier to free trade becomes artificial barriers erected by businesses that may have nothing to do with the artist themselves.
Capitalism is a good thing...
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