Strange VHS capture issue...

[zombiecraig]

Okay, here are my specs (from my woefully outdated system) that seem important:

Athlon XP 1.53 GHz
MSI KT3-Ultra mobo
512 MB RAM
ATI All-In-Wonder 9600 XT w/ 128 MB RAM
Windows XP SP2

If you need some other info, let me know.


Okay, so I am trying to capture video from some VHS cassettes that I recorded from television many years ago. Store bought prerecorded VHS cassette tapes are fine. They turn out wonderfully. But the stuff I recorded, regardless of whether it has been recorded on SP or EP, shows up as being all jumpy and flickery when I attempt to capture it. Well, not all of the tapes, but there are several.

Now I just bought this fantastic used SVHS player that plays these old tapes back as best as could be expected. They look great on my television. I use an S-video cable to connect the VHS player to my capture card and it is jump and flicker city!

Regardless of what program I try to use, it always turns out looking the same, which leads me to believe that it has to be an issue with the ATI card and it's settings. Why would it look fine on my television, but come out jumpy through the capture card? I just don't get why other videos are fine, and the ones that I recorded are not. Maybe an issue with RAM? Maybe an issue with the refresh rate?

I was all set to upgrade my processor and mobo earlier today, but I honestly do not think that is the problem, as the prerecorded stuff is fantastic. I don't really have the money to upgrade everything right now if I don't have to.

Any suggestions would be appreciated, as this is really frustrating me. Thanks in advance.

[redwudz]

Why would it look fine on my television, but come out jumpy through the capture card?

Easy, because your VCR plays analog video and your capture card outputs digital video. With digital there is no room for errors, compared to a analog system. It has to be a 1 or a 0, not somewhere in-between. Or maybe it's better to say that digital has less tolerance for minor errors in timing, color, etc. that a analog system can ignore.

Video timing is very critical. Any variations show up in a digital copy. Commercial VHS tapes keep the tolerances a lot tighter than a home made tape. The best solution, if you need do do a lot of this, is a TBC (Time Base Corrector) that sets the timing back to a standard, and corrects the slightly drifting timing that most VCRs output.

And welcome to our forum.

[zombiecraig]

So, a Time Base Corrector would solve this problem for sure? I was all set to give up and piss and moan about it, but you have my hopes up to some degree.

What is a reliable solution as far as a Time Base Corrector goes? And where would I be able to obtain said model?

[thecoalman]

What you're seeing is pretty common especially with the ATI card. Note that this problem may not be present even using a cheaper card, that was experience ar least. Essentially the card sees a MV signal where none is present, that was my conclusion and the conclusion of others as well.

www.nepadigital.com/mv

Check the clips at the bottom, I'm sure you'll find the ATI example clip is exactly what you arte seeing. That page is getting a little dated and I probably should add some more info.

TBC or other stabilizer product should eliminate it. Cheapest models that I'm aware of is the Datavideo TBC-1000 for about $300. Soemone mentioned another model in the $200 range, I think it was AVT something. Keep in mind the TBC will do a lot more for you than eliminate your flickering problem.

https://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?p=1115672#1115672

[piano632]

Save yourself a lot of frustration and just buy a good DVD recorder like a JVC. Most DVD recorders have some kind of stabilization circuitry and other filters to clean up analog signals that capture cards lack. A good TBC costs more than a DVD recorder. Plus you save a lot of time by recording direct to DVD.

[zombiecraig]

Save yourself a lot of frustration and just buy a good DVD recorder like a JVC. Most DVD recorders have some kind of stabilization circuitry and other filters to clean up analog signals that capture cards lack. A good TBC costs more than a DVD recorder. Plus you save a lot of time by recording direct to DVD.

Well, I had considered that actually. But I'm pretty anal about the menu customization. I use Ulead DVD Workshop 2 and create them from scratch using that method. I wasn't really sure about whether or not the menus would satisfy me in regards to the stand alone recorders. But I guess that I could just rip them afterwards and burn a new DVD through DVD Workshop with new menus if I wanted to.

I just have a fear that the quality will be for shit. I guess if someone would recommend a decent DVD recorder, I may consider it. But what happens if I have the same issue there with jumpy, flickery video? I do hate to put that much money into a TBC, especially after buying this SVHS player and capture card. I would like to hear a few more suggestions if anyone has any. I do have a whole rack of VHS cassettes to transfer, 50+. But a DVD Recorder may be more practical in the long run.

[zombiecraig]

Well, I've done some reading about DVD Recorders. I'm still having a tough time finding out which ones do the best job of cleaning up VHS TBC issues. Is there a run down of DVDRs that handle this with the most reliable quality?

[piano632]

JVC recorders are the only brand I can whole-heartedly recommend, as they have some of the most aggressive filters and best MPEG encoders. If you've used one of their high-end S-VHS VCR's with DigiPure/TBC playback then you will have some idea of what their recorders do for the input signal. JVC is the only brand that will fix color noise upon input. The only drawback I can see is there are no adjustments for the filtering so you always get the highest level of filtering. Some people claim this softens the image somewhat, but the image to me looks very good and clean.

Yes, it's true that menus are simplistic on DVD recorders. What I do is record on recorder then do the editing and menus on computer.

DVD recorders to avoid: Panasonic (poor MPEG encoder), Philips (reliability problems), Cyberhome (cheap junk).

Pioneer recorders (good with off-air recordings, but weak stability with analog tape input)
Sony recorders (don't know enough about them, except they're overpriced for what they do)
Toshiba recorders (good from what I've heard; don't know about stability with tapes)

Image below was made on JVC DR-M10 from SuperBeta tape (VHS tape won't look quite as clear but this will give you an idea of the quality you can get from a JVC recorder).

[davideck]

zombiecraig - You might find this interesting. DVDRs are discussed towards the end.
https://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=289311
My vote goes to Toshiba.

[zombiecraig]

Thanks to both, and all of you. davideck, I was actually just reading that thread for the last half hour or so. Thank again for the input.

[FulciLives]

The AVT-8710 is a Full Frame TBC and it can be bought on-line for about $190 US Dollars. I would use something like PRICEGRABBER.COM to find the lowest price but last I checked I think B&H PHOTO & VIDEO had it for the cheapest price.

The only other "inexpensive" Full Frame TBC is the aforementioned DataVideo TBC-1000 but this unit is more in the range of $300 US Dollars.

You will find that some video sources may still need or at least benefit from a Full Frame TBC even when using a stand alone or set top DVD recorder.

In my mind ... if you are happy with the quality of the ATI captures (when it works well for you) then I would just get a Full Frame TBC and continue to use the ATI for captures.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[thecoalman]

B&H PHOTO & VIDEO had it for the cheapest price.

Cheapest or not that place has the best service you can possibly expect.

[heman28]

Hello I can give some indo as well. I have used the hauppauge wintv pvr 250 card and I have used both the avt-8710 and the data video tbc-1000 on many vhs tapes and also use them on a Pioneer dvd recorder that I got at walmart last year. The pioneer does an awesome job but you will have to use a time base corrector on it or it can studder once in a while with tapes. I have a Panasonic and I like the recording quality in two hour mode but anything after that its really not very good compared to the pioneer that I have. Also the Panasonic has some sort of problem with the audio causing skipping problems and you would have to pause for the audio to catch back up with the video when playing it in some dvd players like playstation 2. I have never have had any experience with the JVC models but I would go for one of those if you decide to get one. The only thing the Panasonic is good for it passing the signal through on stubborn tapes that a tbc wont fix flagging or tearing of the image at the top. Well hope that might help you out. Both time base correctors above does an awesome job but I would say I like the AVT bette then the Datavideo since it has color and sharpness etc adjustments on it as too the time base corrector does not. They too me put out the same quality as far as video signal goes.

[thomash85715]

The JVC DVHS digital HD VCRs have built in TBC that can be switched in or out for playback of out-of-tolerance older analog VHS material. I have two of these beasts and the TBC does a pretty good job on most material. I just mention it as alternative if you are going to be replacing a VCR anytime soon. Kill two birds with one stone. --Good Luck