DV vs AVI to Capture for editing?

[A_51]

I would like to know witch is better source for editing the video. I have an AIW ATI 8500dv and quite frankly I haven't been able to do a good analog AVI capture. There is always dropped frames and audio sync problems. I do my MPEG capturing with an Liteon dvdr but I have some tapes that need cleaning. I was thinking of buying a separate capture box ( DV type ) but after reading some I'm not sure if that is the anwser or should I keep trying to make AVI capture with my AIW card. Sometimes I feel like I'm beating a dead horse....

[yoda313]

Though I don't own one everyone here swears by DV. I have a 90's vintage 8mm camcorder that I dub to my fusion 3 hdtv caputre card in mpeg mode. I can capture avi but I got too use to mpeg captures with my old hauppauge wintv pvr 250. Mpeg is usually more than enough for me since I mostly do simple edits like cutting and stuff.

But avi, especially imported from dv, apparently has the best flexibility and quality.

[redwudz]

I would vote for DV for editing ease as every frame is a keyframe, making frame accurate editing easy. Xvid, for example, often has a keyframe every 300 frames, so no accuracy there.

[yoda313]

Xvid, for example, often has a keyframe every 300 frames, so no accuracy there.

True but most of the "regulars" here would be more apt to capture to a higher quality format (dv avi or mpeg 2) then edit before compressing to something like xvid.

[thecoalman]

AVI...

Have you checked the capture guide at www.digitalfaq.com for the ATI cards.

[edDV]

All depends on the source.

I'm getting good uncompressed captures from my 8500DV but I usually work with short clips, not long movies. Capture to a large second drive. Avoid capturing to the same drive as the OS.

For PVR type activity I use various MPeg2 realtime (MMC9.02) compressions.

Don't use this card for DV. Turn it off and use a separate DV port.

I'm also happy with my ADVC-100 for high quality DV captures off the cable box S-Video). I don't do much VHS capture.

[rhegedus]

DV

Smooooooth...........

[thecoalman]

BTW your poll choices are a little off. AVI is just a wrapper file that can contain many types of video using different comp-ression methods such as DV, Divx etc. By analog AVI I'm assuming you are referring to uncompressed which BTW may be the problem as it creates enomous files and requires quite a bit of HD speed.

[A_51]

thecoalman , I did see the guides. Even more I print them and make a booklet out of them. That site is great and provides a lot of useful information. I just havent been able to make a satisfactory uncompress avi capture.

edDV wrote:
I'm getting good uncompressed captures from my 8500DV but I usually work with short clips, not long movies. Capture to a large second drive. Avoid capturing to the same drive as the OS.

I wonder if my problem is that my captures are long? I did short test and the were fairly good ( clips of about 30 secons ). But when I did the captures, typicaly 1 hour I began to get in trouble after about five minutes. I do have a dedicated 130 GB HD for video projects set up as master.
I haven't been able to upgrade MMC. I have try it a couple of times but it freezes on the midle of it and after that it give me all kinds of problems. I ended up removing the whole thing and reinstalling MMC 7.7 witch came with it. No vodeo soap and avi audio up to 44khz, it SUCKS.....

"Don't use this card for DV. Turn it off and use a separate DV port." Why you sugested that ? I was thinking of maybe getting and fire wire converter box, maybe canopus ADVC-110 Advanced Ditigal Video Converter or ADS Pyro A/V Link. With hopes that it took care of my problems with drop frames and audio sync and it would be a better cuality form of video as far as resolution and editting capabilities. I'm confuse again......

edDV If you post your settings for avi capture and your procedure I will greatly apreciated.

By the way guys I have a self made computer with:
SOHO MoBo AK32a
Athlon XP 2k prossesor
On board audio
1 GB DDR Ram
ATI AIW 8500DV 4X AGP
E-IDE 0 I have a 120 GB HD set up as master, partitioned in 3 OS, programs, data. Also a DVD burner as slave.
E-IDE 1 have a 130 GB HD for video projects set up as master. Also have another DVD burner as slave.
there is also a moden, lan and 2 usb's expantion cards installed.
Keep in mind that this is my main computer I do everything on it...

[edDV]

The DV port on the ATI AIW8500DV never worked correctly. There is a switch on the card to turn it off. Causes countless problems. See ATI support.

MMC 9.02 works OK for me. Only 9.02, don't go higher. Skip the DVD player. Not worth the $20 upgrade.

For uncompressed capture, I just capture directly into Premiere, Vegas, Vitualdub, ULead Video Studio etc. using uncompressed settings matching timeline project settings such as 720x480, YUY2 or UYVY. Audio has to be captured off the audio card (unsynced) hence the potential for sync drift.

The Canopus ADVC-100 DV transcoder syncs audio during capture so there is no drift.

[PIntag]

Don't forget to disable your Virus scanner when capturing -- it can cause dropped frames.

[FulciLives]

I would either get a DV capture device like the Canopus ADVC-110 or the DataVideo DAC-100

The other options is a hardware MPEG capture device that is capable of doing a 15,000kbps CBR MPEG-2 capture such as the ADS Instant DVD 2.0 or the Hauppauge WinTV PVR units (like the 250, 350 or USB2 model ... the 150 model is the only "bad" apple of the bunch).

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[A_51]

Ok so what I get out of the poll DV is the way to go. I can't use the fire wire of my video card because it sucks and using a DV capture box is highly sugested. So by what it sound I sould get a firewire card and a DV box. About $300 and I should be in good shape.

[edDV]

Ok so what I get out of the poll DV is the way to go. I can't use the fire wire of my video card because it sucks and using a DV capture box is highly sugested. So by what it sound I sould get a firewire card and a DV box. About $300 and I should be in good shape.

The lower end ADVC-55 is input only and will save you some cash but it is sill unknown to me whether the 55 or the ADS supports locked audio mode like the ADVC-100/110.

Newegg has the ADVC-110 for $235 including shipping + IEEE-1394 cards under $10.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.asp?DEPA=0&type=&description=canopus&Submit=...&Go.x=0&Go.y=0

[A_51]

I have done some reading, Canopus doesn't mention anithing about audio sync on the avdc-55. Of all models I have read about ADVC-110, ADS Pyro A/V Link and DataVideo DAC-100 are basically the same. Price range from $150 to $280. Canopus being the more expensive and the only one that claims audio sync. I feel a little unsure about the canopus because they are mentioned in some threads by some people saying that they are more hype than real. I don't want to pay just for the name.
Also since I'm going to disable the firewire port of the 8500DV card, I'm going to need at least a fire wire card. $30 to $80 more.

[edDV]

Canopus is good. Their DV codec matches Sony. The other advanges in the ADVC-110 are 0 IRE /7.5 IRE setup switch (very important for NTSC) and analog color bars to calibrate your VCR. As a bidirectional device, it will serve as a monitor transcoder for Vegas or Premiere feeding proper 7.5 IRE black from a DV timeline.

The IEEE-1394 card need not cost more than $10
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16815104226

or get a combo IEEE-1394/USB2 card for $16
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16815124002

[vhelp]

I'm pretty late in responding on this topic, but since I'm here, I'll just
add my comments below.

When going the AVI capturing route, you have to expect some form of line noise
included in the finished AVI source file. This has been a long-time problem
of mine, since about the begining. I have fought with this, but to no avail.

Long story short, on account of this "noise" issue, I settled down with the
ADVC line of dv capture devices. Mine is the ADVC-100, but there are other
flavors since this one.

If you want *clean* captured AVI sources, then you simply will have to go the
DV route. At least for the ADVC lines. These devices will give you ZERO amount
of noise in your finished AVI files. Mind you, this does not include sources
that are VHS with *VHS noise* as they are two different things. So, don't get
them confused.

The only CONS with DV is the color space phenomina.., usually discussed as:
color bleeding; chroma upsampling error; 411; or whatever bug. But even these
can be delt with to some extent.

In addition to this, there is the color space sampling that some feel is a bad
thing (or CON) for dv. And at this the Sampling used in this format. That
sampling is the DV 4:1:1 vs. MPEG-2 4:2:0, but in all honesty, they both
have the same amount of Chroma (Cb/Cr) but are spaced differently. That is all,
for these two formats.

So, weather your CODEC choice is DV or MPEG, they both have the same amount of
Chroma information, and they share similarily with the chroma upsampling error
when either of these two are decoded.

But, the last basing point (I guess) would be in the craftmenship of each of
these two codec's compression results. Personally, I would choose the DV over
the MPEG. The main reason, is because of the motion compensation that is a
part of MPEG. And, in fast scenes, the mpeg will not reproduce certain details
in the finished mpeg source. This will evidence as pixelation. And, if your
source is noisy or so-so, MPEG might not be the best way to go. But that is
user debatable.

-vhelp 3906

[A_51]

OK it looks like the canopus advc-110 or 100 is the winner. Due to features and reputation.

edDV, you have hive me enough motivation to try again to upgrade the MMC on my card and I will disable the firewire port like you suggested. Tanks ...

All of the opinions of you guys are greatly appreciated...


The winner by KO DV!!!!!!!!

[zoobie]

Try to get the advc-100 as it can defeat macrovision if you need it to whereas the 110 can't. It's off the market but you can still find them here and there. Audio sync is nice.

Actually, the dac-100 defeats macrovision, matches the sony codec, and is even cheaper. No audio sync, though.

But the biggest bang for the buck seems to be the relatively new ADS Pyro A/V Link which I don't know anything about. Do a search here for info on this one.

[FulciLives]

Actually, the dac-100 defeats macrovision, matches the sony codec, and is even cheaper. No audio sync, though.

I was under the impression that the DataVideo DAC-100 supports the audio lock feature?

Not that I have one (going by what I have read) but I always heard that it was almost an identical "clone" of the Canopus ADVC-100 even down to the 7.5 IRE and 0.0 IRE options etc.

In fact the two boxes even look (except for some cosmetic differences) the same ... at least from pics I have seen.

Also please note that while I have read that the DataVideo DAC-100 does indeed ignore all copy protection the ADVC-100 "trick" to ignore copy protection does not work with ALL of the ADVC-100 models plus I heard some things once about it working for NTSC but not PAL although that sounds odd and might have been PAL people getting the version that couldn't be tricked to ignore copy protection and just assuming it didn't work for PAL.

vhelp has some info on this I think.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[A_51]

For all of you guys reading this treat. I just read a document from ADS clayming that the ADS Pyro A/V Link has audio lock feature. The document can be read here http://www.adstech.com/media/mediafiles/PR_12-05ADS%20PYROAVAdobe2.htm

[vhelp]

Evening everyone


Regarding the advc-100 units ...

From my readings on this forum and in various areas, I have found that some
users here are not able to "disable" the macrovision (MV) detection on some
ADVC-100 untis. At the time of reading those comments, it was my belief that
they just were not properly disabling the feature. But its hard to tell from
my seat.


Regarding the dac-100 units ...

I also read in various places here, that MV is automatically desabled.. no jumper
pins or buttons to jimmy.

But, in all my readings, you mainly hear a lot of discussions with the ADVC-55/100/
110/300 units. But there has been some *small* talk regarding the 55/110 models
not being able to bypass MV. I also read elsewhere's how some members in PAL regions
were not successful on this. But since there has been no real claim, nor testing done
w/ the two models or PAL units, its safe to assume either, until something concrete
crosses out path

In any case, it would seem to me, that the ADVC line are very popular and *DO* what
they claim to do. ( I can sure vouch for that )


Regarding ADS products ...

I have some experience with them.. owning a ADS DVD Xpress (hardware MPEG) capture
device, and being rather successful with it. I have even created a small tweaking
tool to aid in it, though never released publicly.. since I do not use it enough
to warrant any official release.

And, I have found a few PROS about ADS line. They do put out some decent quality
video stuff. In one case, I did a capture of a VHS source, widescreen materail, and
was quite please with the results. But, like the tweak I mentioned above, I never
did release any offical demos of such sources.

Also, it is nice to have a *hardware filter* to help with some noisy sources. But
I have not mastered that area on account of lack of time and too many projects on
my Video Workstation desk.


Something quick to note and remember, fwiw ...

There are two things that make a good finished video presentation:

** greatest detail reproduction, and
** as little-to-no pixelation (or macroblocks)

Together, these make a very good starting point in describing as perfect a video
presentation. Master these two, and everything else (with minor tweaking/adjusting)
will (or should) fall into place, quality-wise.

-vhelp 3914

[FulciLives]

For all of you guys reading this treat. I just read a document from ADS clayming that the ADS Pyro A/V Link has audio lock feature. The document can be read here http://www.adstech.com/media/mediafiles/PR_12-05ADS%20PYROAVAdobe2.htm

ADS makes some products that I like but I have heard far too many complaints about the Pyro A/V Link that for me make it unacceptable for use.

Not to mention it does not have selectable IRE BLACK LEVEL input.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[A_51]

I won't take any chances with the ADS pyro. I just ordered a DAC- 100 at Amazon for $150.

[zoobie]

Use a better firewire than supplied.
Reviews of ADS pyro, advc-55, and dac-100 link below
http://www.macworld.com/2004/07/reviews/firewiredigitalvideoconverters/index.php