VHS can record better than DVD recorders?

[kevs]

I got a new Sony DVD burner, great machine, but just noticing that even at best settings-- HQ, SP, various older VHS tapes ( which I am archiving to DVD), seem to actually have more flicker on playback than from VHS to VHS. In fact the VHS to VHS can even be better results on low quality settings like LP or EP. So I am really baffled by this. any insights appreciated. thanks.

[edDV]

Shouldn't be the case. What are you recording from?

Flicker shouldn't be there. How are you displaying? Which connection?

[SingSing]

Flickering often means loss of video sync. It most likley indicates your Sony DVD recorder is more sensitive to weak sync signal from the vhs tape ( drop out perhaps ? ).

[trossin]

VHS is better than MPEG-2 compression when you have a snowy signal from an antenna.

[oldandinthe way]

The quality of the analog input processing in your DVD recorder is probably inferior to the analog input processing in your recording VHS unit. Not uncommon because it is an easy place to skim on manufacturing cost (other manufacturers skim on the tuner quality).

Your recorder probably makes an excellent copy of a less than excellent signal. A video stabilizer might help a bit.

[LCSHG]

My 3 ilo RHD04 [Liteon] units make a very good copy of ANY tape

If I were to copy a VHS SP tape to a VHS at EP, its acceptable. To EP the result is terrible.

If I copy a SP tape to the DVD at SP, or LP it would be impossible to see a difference. At, EP you might see a slight difference, if the VHS tape was any good to begin with

Sorry but The last unit I would think to use for your purpose Is a Sony

[Marvingj]

Pioneer is notorious for flickering when copying a VHS Tape. But this the first I heard of Sony doing it.

[FulciLives]

Pioneer is notorious for flickering when copying a VHS Tape. But this the first I heard of Sony doing it.

The last crop of models from Pioneer did not have this problem and so hopefully will future models also not have this problem.

Also the older Pioneers would "flicker" only on tapes with bad dropouts. Using a TBC would help.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[kevs]

thanks all.

Recording from Sony VHS recorder to Sony DVD recorder: normal rca red, white, blue cables.

sorry, did not understand that sing sing.

don't think atenna is part of mix is it, trossen?

excellent post oldaithway, what is a stabilizer, how much cost? (fulci mentioned some options on another post, but are bit pricey) I'm looking for little box that will beat copy protection, same thing? any other recommendations,, please send urls.

Note: I really like the sony, I tried Lite-on, Samsung, and Panasonic, and found it's build and ease of use to be best-- just my conclusions. also note: this tape is not great sample tape. the material on it was recorded at ep (six hours) -- which have lot of. don't think flickering will happen with sp vhs tapes I have. Still, don't see any flickering from this ep tape to another vhs tape, but I just think oldandinthway, explained it. How silly of the DVD companies. Do you think the Sony with VHS recorder included would be better? all in all, I'm still going ahead with project-- little loss of quality, trade off for ease of having everything on DVD.

TCB is what?

[FulciLives]

You need a TBC ... TBC is short for Time Base Corrector

There are many threads that talk about what a TBC can do and the different types of TBC's but if you want to use a TBC with your current setup it boils down to two choices.

1.) The DataVideo TBC-1000 which is approximately $300 US Dollars
2.) The AVT-8710 which is approximately $190 US Dollars

I would use something like PRICEGRABBER.COM to find a website with the lowest price.

Here is just one thread with more info on TBC's ---> CLICK HERE

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[gshelley61]

The quality of the analog input processing in your DVD recorder is probably inferior to the analog input processing in your recording VHS unit. Not uncommon because it is an easy place to skim on manufacturing cost (other manufacturers skim on the tuner quality).

Not true. The video input sections of name brand DVD recorders are excellent, incorporating the very latest digital multi-line Y/C separation filters not even invented yet when most VHS units were being built. The digital sampling of analog video and subsequent encoding to MPEG2 (DVD) requires a very high quality input image processor. Many low-end VHS units have crappy video input sections. A high quality input section is not necessary for VHS because it is a very low bandwidth (low resolution) video format that produces poor image quality regardless of how good the source is.

[kevs]

gsheelly,
so curious, why does a vhs tape that play back fine, (on the Vhs player) have some distortion and flickering on even highest quality setting of DVD player?

[LCSHG]

Quote
Recording from Sony VHS recorder to Sony DVD recorder: normal rca red, white, blue cables.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would say its most likely the recorder, but
Could be the the cables. I don't know where the blue cable came from most units I have seen, have a red and white for the audio and a [yellow]? for video, but you never now what Sony is up to. To confuse , they might have the red be a white or a blue but than what are the white and blue.

[vhelp]

I think that you might get better response if you describe this video
problem of "flicker" you are seeing, by posting a few pics (images) of
this problem.

Recording from Sony VHS recorder to Sony DVD recorder: normal rca red, white, blue cables

However, if I read the above correctly, then you problem is a simple one.
You made the wrong connections.

Your Sony VCR is most likely Composite (RCA Yellow connector) only, evidence
by the units markings on the back:

Standard connections:
** Audio: White[left], Red[right] channels
** Video: Yellow
** or, S-Video (has 4 pins) (used only on s-vhs vcrs, or dvd recorders)

Component connections:
** YPbPr: Red, Green, Blue


You would need to connect only the VCR's Composite YELLOW to the dvd recorder's yellow.
and your VCR's audio's white, red to the dvd recorder's white, red.

-vhelp 3902

[FulciLives]

gsheelly,
so curious, why does a vhs tape that play back fine, (on the Vhs player) have some distortion and flickering on even highest quality setting of DVD player?

First I think you meant DVD recorder and not DVD player ...

Secondly I can answer this in a non technical way ...

VHS is analog video. A standard TV will show that analog signal without having to convert it to digital. Thus the TV simply "ignores" issues with the analog video thus giving you a "better" looking image than when you try to digitalize that same VHS video.

The process of analog to digital conversion (VHS to DVD) will not "accept" a poor quality signal nearly as well as a normal TV will.

The problem is most likely that particular VHS video but sometimes using better and specialized equipment (like a Full Frame TBC) can clean up analog errors and facilitate the analog to digital conversion.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[kevs]

thanks Fulci, excellent info.
Question:
Do you think doing this with a VHS player built into the DVD recorder, would matter, would help at all?

[FulciLives]

thanks Fulci, excellent info.
Question:
Do you think doing this with a VHS player built into the DVD recorder, would matter, would help at all?

It doesn't help ... in fact it tends to make things "worse" as you cannot use any external processing if needed. By external processing I am talking about using something like a Full Frame TBC device.

Combo units (VHS and DVD reocrder in one) sound like a nice idea but in reality it is a poor design.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[vhelp]

Noise is something that I am also studying. So I have a fondness of this
phenomina and MPEG processes.

.
.

Adding onto Fulci's comments..

Also, (if I may add) noisy video is harder to compress inside the MPEG
continer. The more noise you have in your source, the harder it is
on the MPEG. (very important here) And, the more non-aligned or non-
gradient the color pixles are inside each 8x8 blocks to MPEG encode, the
worse the end result will be in your finished MPEG. And, motion will add
many times worse to this effect. But most users aren't aware of this fact

In this case, the noise is evidenced (inside an 8x8 block, for instance)
where there is more color information then there is within the image's actual
make-up (pattern) that describes the image.

For instance..
Scene A - it is much easier to MPEG encode an 8x8 solid color block, than

Scene B - it is for a 8x8 multi-color (or, noisy) block.
The reason is simple.. less colors to MPEG encode.

(noisy/multi-color blocks - look at it another way.. say you have an image,
and you disperse it as a gigsaw puzzle. And, you MPEG encode this puzzle.
The mpeg bitrate distribution would not be a balance one, vs. an MPEG encode
of the puzzle put back together again into the orignal image and MPEG encoded.
This would be likened to the noisy vhs source you're having trouble with.
Too many off colored pixels *and* not aligned and gradiently flowing through
out the image)

Scene C - also, less bitrate is require when, say a group of 8x8 blocks are
MPEG encoded, and image flows more smoothly or gradiently throughout those group
of 8x8 blocks.. and the more of these blocks of smooth and gradients, the
better the over-all bitrate distribution.

When your source is VHS, (though I say it is not noisy in many cases) it is
noisy when compared to something that is "digital" like DVD or HDTV.

Where the noise comes from is not fully known to me. It is a part of the
Reception, the units/devices/electronics, and anything else considered,
"phenomina".

-vhelp 3903

[Marvingj]

Another interesting point is the compression you use. Compression algorithms (ie: Divx or intel indeo or ATI's VCR1 and VCR2, etc.) break the video color information into 16x16 pixel blocks. The smaller the resolution you use, the bigger the aparent size of those blocks will be. So, even if your video source has a very low resolution, you should capture it with at least 320x240, or the results will look weird. Also, if you are going to recompress that video later, or if you intend to edit it, try to capture with the least compression you can. If you have enough free space and you HD can keep up with high transfer rates, use uncompressed formats. When capturing a movie that has subtitles or any small text with the standard 352x240 resolution, you'll get those little "ghosts" all arround the text when you compress it to a higher compression system, such as Divx . Just like a jpg picture with high compression. The same effect (defect) will show up arround hard edges. There's also a great difference between videos captured from a VHS source and the ones ripped from DVDs: the noise. If you compress a DVD ripped video at 352x240 with divx, you get a good result, because the source video didn't have any noise. On the other hand, if you compress a VHS source video at the same resolution, the noise will seem to be amplified, and will take a lot of the stream bandwidth.

[kevs]

no h:hard drives! this is all vhs to dvd recorder!
thanks John, great info again.

what is full frame mean, and how does it relate to this?

[FulciLives]

what is full frame mean, and how does it relate to this?

Here is a thread with more info on TBC's ---> CLICK HERE

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[kevs]

I got the TBC and it did not help my situation, still have that jitter, so wondering, question:

Would having a machine with a VCR built in and a HD help? In other words going from the VHS to the HD. Could that look better than what I see now going from VHS to a DVD recorder? thanks.

[TBoneit]

What TBC?

I'm looking at this thread and wondering if by jitter you mean what i call flagging? Flagging being thge top of the picture waving to one side?

Or do you mean the whole screen jittering up and down or side to side?

FWIW I have a TBC and many times it doesn't seem to be doing something but on VHS to DVD it helps keep things running good wherever there is a dropout on the tape as well as removing the macrovision.

Can you post a scren cpture that demonstrates the problem?

At the top of the thread you say flicker and at the bottom you say jitter, Same problem different description or two different problems?

[kevs]

I DON'T know what it is, but just a portion of the lower third of screen, that pixiltes and looks bad. TBC was by tv-one avt 710.

anyway, was about my question or idea on the vrc going to hardrive. thanks!

[lordsmurf]

If a DVD looks worse than a VHS tape, either the hardware is inferior or you're dealing with a case of user error (wrong settings, lack of knowledge, etc).

[vhelp]

kevs, your issues my be on account of your older-generation units poor craftmenship,
or they wore over time, and/or your tapes did.

But, even that shouldn't be too much of a problem if you have a decent vcr.
IMHO, you should start with a new generation vcr. I know that the JVC lines
are one of the best. I have an S-VHS by them, and it handles all my tapes,
from old to new very well..

..also, your vcr should have some user adjustable features.. like tracking, and
calibration and stabalization, to name a few. IMHO though, you probably only
need the calibration or stabilization user-features to fix this, but depending
on how bad your older tapes are. I mean. You could have recorded to these
tapes with a worn vcr, back then.. but didn't now it at the time or today, and
is no matter now, because you probably don't even have the old vcr anymore's.

I would theorize that if you end up getting a better crafted vcr, and still
have the issues, then its on account of what I said above, and that because
the tapes were "recorded like that" and nothing can fix that.

-vhelp 3938

[kevs]

lords, did not get that. looks worse going from VHS player to Sony REcorder. now I just got rid of that Sony, so I will try on the recorder/HD combo I get soon. I will say this: this issue is only with the VHS tapes that were recorded at EP (6hrs). the ones done at SP, seem to go over fine on the Sony recorder.

Using a Panasonic VCR, and have Sony VCR too. the JVC is the DVD player I have. again v help, the tapes aren't great, but they dont do the wobble thing to tv, only to the new DVD-r,

But, still curioius: do you think playing them on a recorder HD combo unit may solve it? going from VHS, no cables to a HD, then back to DVD-r no cables

[vhelp]

I don't know.. hard to say. From where I'm sitting, I don't know, cause
I don't have your equipment nor your tapes to view your problems. so, I
have to theorize or guess, based on my own experiences.

I think in the end, it's probably a tracking problem on your vcr when
used with those old tapes, because of the older unit you used to record
those videos to.

Another possible alternative to measuring your problems could be through
the use of a DV cam that has good pass-through features. On my Sony TRV-22
and JVC GR-DVL820U dv cams, and when running a few troubled
vhs tapes (your's, for instance) I can get improved results. But, for an
added plus, if you run your vcr to a dv cam, and record to the a miniDV
tape, you can get slightly better results, because of the dv cam's built-in
hardware filtering. Course, mileage on this tip will vary from cam to cam.

But like I said earlier, if your tapes are as bad as you describe, and even
after other proposed (and tried?) methods, then even this route may not work
for you. But you can at least consider it, if you have access to a dv cam.

If you do go with the dv cam pass-through theory, I recommend to record to
a miniDV tape for maximum results.

-vhelp 3939

[TBoneit]

You did try adjusting the tracking? It is possible that the VCR they were recorded on was out of spec and that the best you will be able to do is adjust the tracking manually to put a little off tracking noise at the top and bottom where it will be mostly hidden by overscan on the TV. If adjusting the tracking moves the problem area up or down on the screen but can not clear up the problem then the tape is off spec. In that case and it needs to be confirmed first. If so a repair shop could misadjust a cheapo VCR to play these tapes if you have enough to make it worthwhile. Can you see a problem when playing back dirct into the TV too?

Many VCRs auto adjust the tracking and may have a problem with EP(SLP) mode tapes that are off spec. You may have to read the manual to find out how to manual track a tape.

[SingSing]

You are trying to dub VHS in EP to DVD and VHS. It is about how "not too too bad" the result can be. Digital aliasing due to really low quality video signal, that one cannot really aviod.