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  1. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    The answer is still no. It'll look absolutely dreadful.
    Want my help? Ask here! (not via PM!)
    FAQs: Best Blank DiscsBest TBCsBest VCRs for captureRestore VHS
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    Alright lordsmurf..

    Could you answer this question (for number 1 there must be a model does it and for number 2 just tell me the closest answer):

    Which DVD recorder:

    1- Doesn't stop recording after unstable videos.
    2- Record as good quality as possible at 6hour or 8 hour mode (closest answer).
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  3. Member FulciLives's Avatar
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    For a stand alone DVD recorder the Toshiba models (like the D-R4) are good. The Pioneer models are good. Also are the JVC models.

    The Toshiba does seem to have the best TBC built-in but I don't know if it is really better than having an external full frame TBC.

    Most DVD recorders will still benefit from using an external Full Frame TBC and/or a S-VHS VCR with a built-in TBC (for VHS/S-VHS sources only of course).

    So even with a DVD recorder you may still need some form of an external TBC device.

    As for recording times ... for me the max recording time is about 3 - 4 hours with 3 hours looking much better than 4 hours to my eye.

    No DVD recorder will give you acceptable quality past 4 hours. It's the nature of the beast. The DVD format simply cannot handle it ... unless you use a dual layer blank but that makes little sense as 2 single layer blanks are much cheaper than 1 dual layer blank ... plus you have less "issues" in so far as compatability with single layer blanks.

    What you have to understand is that past the 4 hour mode the bitrate is too low for an acceptable image ... also the resolution will drop down to that of a VCD. Have you seen VCD quality? It utterly sucks and VHS, despite being analog, is better than VCD.

    - John "FulciLives" Coleman
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    Originally Posted by FulciLives
    What you have to understand is that past the 4 hour mode the bitrate is too low for an acceptable image ... also the resolution will drop down to that of a VCD. Have you seen VCD quality? It utterly sucks and VHS, despite being analog, is better than VCD.

    - John "FulciLives" Coleman
    I understand that John, but "acceptable image" differs from one person to another. I may accept the 6hour or 8hour image for somekind of recordings (TV series for example), but I don't accept it for my home videos for example.

    Upto this moment nobody has answered my question:

    Which model is the best when recording at SEP or SLP?
    Which one has the best 6hour or 8hour recording among those "unacceptable image" recorders?
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  5. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    You're not getting an answer because your question is similar to this one:

    Which tastes better with ketchup?
    1. Horse roadpies
    2. Cow chips
    3. Deer dung
    4. Bat guano
    5. Rabbit pellets
    6. Dog turds
    7. Mouse droppings
    8. Used cat litter

    I don't know about you, but my answer is "NONE OF THEM". Same for your question.

    Once upon a time, in the old days, some years, Panasonic did okay for PAL ONLY video. But since that time, it seems to have degraded. The key to recording speeds here is loss of interlace, which tends to corrupt the entire image.
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  6. Preservationist davideck's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by BM9
    Which DVD Recorder can record old unstable videos from beta or vhs perfectly (of course I'll do it with XP or SP modes) and can record clear videos in 6hour or 8hour (better) mode?
    I would recommend a Toshiba unit for tape capturing. As a passthru device, my RD-KX50 is a better TBC/Frame Synchronizer than my TBC-3000. It is also a great HDD DVD Recorder.

    Transferring to DVD will not get you an exact copy. It will be different. In some ways it will be better. In some ways it will be worse. It all depends upon your source, your setup, and your expectations.
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  7. The video will look like, to be kind, garbage at a 6 or 8 hour setting on a DVD. 2 or 3 hours max per DVD

    Xp or SP modes are 1 or 2 hour modes and that is what you burn the DVD at. You don't capture at one mode setting and burn at another without losing quality by re-encoding again and then not on most recorders. If you are going to put 6 or more hours on a DVD, do not bother, keep the VHS instead.

    People here keep saying 2 or 3 hours per disc, then you go right back to a garbage setting of 6 or 8 hours. Discs are 30 cents per disc in quantity and that is for good media, not cheapo junk media. Don't spend the time when you will end up hating the results of squeezing to much onto one disc. By time I mean 2 hours to record a 2 hour show Plus the time to edit and burn.

    Even copying them at 1 or 2 hour speed will lose some quality.
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  8. Originally Posted by BM9
    Originally Posted by FulciLives
    What you have to understand is that past the 4 hour mode the bitrate is too low for an acceptable image ... also the resolution will drop down to that of a VCD. Have you seen VCD quality? It utterly sucks and VHS, despite being analog, is better than VCD.

    - John "FulciLives" Coleman
    I understand that John, but "acceptable image" differs from one person to another. I may accept the 6hour or 8hour image for somekind of recordings (TV series for example), but I don't accept it for my home videos for example.

    Upto this moment nobody has answered my question:

    Which model is the best when recording at SEP or SLP?
    Which one has the best 6hour or 8hour recording among those "unacceptable image" recorders?
    Nobody has answered that question because nobody uses that speed. The people here want to make the best quality video on DVD and are willing to spend a little more on blank discs to do so.

    For what you want to do I think you need to rethink your basic premise. And do the following

    Get a Divx Player, Best Buy sells a Toshiba SD 3990 that I think works great.
    Use a decent Computer and capture your video into the computer.
    Encode into Divx or Xvid maybe with filtering to improve picture. Burn on DVD as a Data Disc and play in the Toshiba 3990.

    The 3 steps I just outlined above will give better results than going to DVD format as MPEG4 is a better compression scheme. And you can choose a resoultion and bitrate as a 528 by 384 esolution with a running time of 25 Minutes and a file size of 346 Mb looks decent if the source looks decent. But that takes time to do.
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  9. Member FulciLives's Avatar
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    You forget though that NTSC captures will be INTERLACED and to create a DivX or XviD you have to make it progressive which means that most of the time you have to deinterlace and that is bad. It is a shame that DivX/XviD do not have proper INTERLACED support.

    So DivX/XviD for captures is a BAD thing.

    Best to just use MPEG-2 but not at VCD resolution and bitrates (which is what 6+ hour mode would be on a DVD recorder).

    - John "FulciLives" Coleman
    "The eyes are the first thing that you have to destroy ... because they have seen too many bad things" - Lucio Fulci
    EXPLORE THE FILMS OF LUCIO FULCI - THE MAESTRO OF GORE
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  10. Originally Posted by lordsmurf
    Which tastes better with ketchup?
    1. Horse roadpies
    2. Cow chips
    3. Deer dung
    4. Bat guano
    5. Rabbit pellets
    6. Dog turds
    7. Mouse droppings
    8. Used cat litter

    I don't know about you, but my answer is "NONE OF THEM". Same for your question.
    This should be the closing statement for this thread.
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  11. Member edDV's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by FulciLives
    You forget though that NTSC captures will be INTERLACED and to create a DivX or XviD you have to make it progressive which means that most of the time you have to deinterlace and that is bad. It is a shame that DivX/XviD do not have proper INTERLACED support.

    So DivX/XviD for captures is a BAD thing.

    Best to just use MPEG-2 but not at VCD resolution and bitrates (which is what 6+ hour mode would be on a DVD recorder).

    - John "FulciLives" Coleman
    For future note, the main difference betweem Windows Media 9 and VC-1 (the SMPTE-421M proposed version) is proper support for interlaced SD and HD video.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VC-1
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    Hi everybody..

    Thank you all for you replies.

    Yesterday I went to a dvd recorders shop and tried two recorders: Panasonic DMR-ES10 and Sharp DV-HR400.

    I recorded from LG dvd player to the Panasonic in SP (2 Hours) and EP mode (8 Hour) and I was surprized!! The difference is unnoticeable!! You can hardly tell which title was recorded in SP and which one was recorded in EP !! And the TV was LG LCD 42" !!
    I don't know if that's because of the source (LG dvd promotion) was very clear. However, today I'm going to try my VHS (recorded in EP=12hours) with unstable videos in some parts.

    lordsmurf.. I know that you hate Panasonic recorders, but if this model (ES10) is one of them, you have to think (or maybe try it) again.

    The picture I got is exactly like the source especially with SP mode.

    It's incredibly easy to use. In several seconds I was controlling the whole menu. Everything is so simple and the graphic is great. In menu there are two EP choices: 6hours or 8 hours. The only bad thing I noticed is that the dvd finalyzing takes long time (about 7 minutes). I loved that recorder, but I wanted a recorder with a hard disk.

    Also the Sharp DV-HR400 gave a perfect image in EP mode (which is unfortunately only 6 hours). Again great picture and great sound (the sharp sound is little bit better than Panasonic). The bad thing is the menu. It's the opposite to Panasonic!! It's very complicated. But I liked its design. It's so elegant. It has 80 GB HDD which is a good thing. I need to edit (cut and join) the recording before burning it to dvd.

    I learned something yesterday... The best way you judge something is to see it and deal with it yourself

    I'll tell you the details as soon as I finish testing them again (with VHS tape this time). Take care.
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  13. No offense, but you must need glasses if you think the 6 and 8 hour recording modes for any DVD recorder produce results that look no different than a 2 hour mode recording. Panasonic recorders like the ES10 are especially bad in the longer recording modes, but honestly all the DVD recorders out there are really terrible in the 6 and 8 hour modes. Simply unacceptable image quality.

    To each his own I suppose.
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  14. Member FulciLives's Avatar
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    I farted.
    "The eyes are the first thing that you have to destroy ... because they have seen too many bad things" - Lucio Fulci
    EXPLORE THE FILMS OF LUCIO FULCI - THE MAESTRO OF GORE
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  15. Originally Posted by FulciLives
    You forget though that NTSC captures will be INTERLACED and to create a DivX or XviD you have to make it progressive which means that most of the time you have to deinterlace and that is bad. It is a shame that DivX/XviD do not have proper INTERLACED support.

    So DivX/XviD for captures is a BAD thing.

    Best to just use MPEG-2 but not at VCD resolution and bitrates (which is what 6+ hour mode would be on a DVD recorder).

    - John "FulciLives" Coleman
    Actually I didn't forget, what I posted was just a brief outline without details. I'm sure there are several tutorials here as well as things like AutoGK that can automate the process. It was the only way I could think of to get decent results squeezing the amount onto a disc like the OP wants to. Note: I said decent results not good results. Going from VHS & probably not even S-VHS They're going to need assist from filtering or else just cap at the 1 to 2 hour speed on the Pioneer 531h as I do and adjust the settings for the input the VCr is on to get the best from each tape. And even that is still a filtering. And That's using the JVC S-VHS, one of the recomended ones I picked up when I popped over to B & H on a sunday morn.

    Wait'll he gets the panasonic, for example, home and sees all the macro blocks in the motion scenes. The OP is forgetting that the demo DVD he tried is disgned to look good. Try recording some fast moving action like a football/Basketball game and examine the movement in Slow motion. That'll kill the good quality idea of a 6 or 8 hour speed. It might look good on something like the old Point/Counterpoint talking heads type of show, but who records them. Sports doesn't even look that good on Sat TV and they're compressing on the fly with Professional equipment.

    Going from videotape with the dropouts and noise in the signal and having to handle the parts of the signal that are hidden in the overscan of the TV like the head switching on the VCR and Close Captioning and such unless someone is selling a DVD recorder that has a special VCR input that masks those areas of the screen. And of course what Mpeg2 does to solid black areas at low bitrate.

    BM9 why the push to squeeze to much onto a disc? I used to do VCDs back before a DVD recorder dropped to $400 and discs became affordable. I thought they were OK then, Now I look at them as I transfer to DVD and most of them the quality is so poor I don't bother. I just feed them straight into the shredder. Oh well
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  16. The 2006 Panasonic line boasts that they use 500 lines vs 250 lines in the longer recording modes (LP) now for clearer pictures.
    http://www.panasonic.com/consumer_electronics/dvd_2006/default.asp

    I just got my Panasonic DMR-ES45V yesterday and will be testing the quality. The internal time base seemed to work well - a Disney Snow White VHS tape, upconverted to 720p 16:9 stretched was crystal clear, my wife doubted it was a tape at first.

    The Panasonix X5 line apparently uses a Panasonic encoder chip instead of the LSI chip in the X0 units - see https://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=279460&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=82 for info on the 35. The info on the new units, especially relating to tapes, is more impressive than older models. Time will tell.
    Panasonic DMR-ES45VS, keep those discs a burnin'
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  17. Originally Posted by gshelley61
    No offense, but you must need glasses if you think the 6 and 8 hour recording modes for any DVD recorder produce results that look no different than a 2 hour mode recording. Panasonic recorders like the ES10 are especially bad in the longer recording modes, but honestly all the DVD recorders out there are really terrible in the 6 and 8 hour modes. Simply unacceptable image quality.

    To each his own I suppose.
    Amen, time for a trip to the optometrist. I can't stand 4 hrs. , forget about 6 or 8.
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  18. Member
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    Originally Posted by gshelley61
    No offense, but you must need glasses if you think the 6 and 8 hour recording modes for any DVD recorder produce results that look no different than a 2 hour mode recording. Panasonic recorders like the ES10 are especially bad in the longer recording modes, but honestly all the DVD recorders out there are really terrible in the 6 and 8 hour modes. Simply unacceptable image quality.

    To each his own I suppose.
    I said I can hardly tell the difference.

    Everybody in this forum keep saying that more than 4 hours recording will produce terrible images!! and I tried the 8 hour mode with 42" LCD TV first from dvd source and today I tried recording my 12 hours (EP) vhs to dvd in ep mode (6 hours) with Sharp recorder and the result was the same as yesterday!! the recorded video was exactly the same as the source. I saw that in front of my eyes and I don't need glasses

    I have a full Seinfeld episode which was recorded in EP in my VCR. I recorded it to dvd in EP mode (6 hours). I sware to god when I play the dvd, it looks exactly like the original vhs.

    Why would I lie to you??! You may tried other models that are terrible in EP mode or tried bad recorders.

    I tried Panasonic DMR-ES10 and Sharp DV-HR400. I'm not responsible for other models

    From the beginning I prefer dealing with analog recorders (you can see my replies), but I'm really surprized by the results and could not prevent myself from telling you what happened with me
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  19. Member FulciLives's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TBoneit
    ... And of course what Mpeg2 does to solid black areas at low bitrate.
    So few people mention this and I hate it ... it is one of the reasons that I refuse to use a low MIN bitrate when doing a multi-pass VBR.

    As for the MPEG-4 suggestion ... I like the MPEG-4 codec for the most part ... I just hate that it can't handle interlaced video ... it's great for making a back-up of a progressive video source but for interlaced material ... blah.

    But then again MPEG-4 at 640x480 with a sufficient bitrate ... despite the need to deinterlace most captures ... would be a better alternative to MPEG-2 on a DVD at VCD resolution and bitrates.

    - John "FulciLives" Coleman
    "The eyes are the first thing that you have to destroy ... because they have seen too many bad things" - Lucio Fulci
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  20. Member FulciLives's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by BM9
    From the beginning I prefer dealing with analog recorders (you can see my replies), but I'm really surprized by the results and could not prevent myself from telling you what happened with me
    In the future ... keep such "joy" to yourself.

    We got enough crazy here as it is!

    - John "FulciLives" Coleman
    "The eyes are the first thing that you have to destroy ... because they have seen too many bad things" - Lucio Fulci
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    Originally Posted by FulciLives
    Originally Posted by BM9
    From the beginning I prefer dealing with analog recorders (you can see my replies), but I'm really surprized by the results and could not prevent myself from telling you what happened with me
    In the future ... keep such "joy" to yourself.

    We got enough crazy here as it is!

    - John "FulciLives" Coleman
    OK John.. You don't have to believe me. I just want to ask you one question:

    You and others keep saying that the picture of 6 or 8 hours mode WOULD be terrible.

    Have you tried recording in EP mode by Sharp DV-HR400?

    Please say yes or no.

    If you haven't, then try to record first from a dvd player to the Sharp recorder in EP and tell me about the result.

    I can't say more.
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  22. Member FulciLives's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by BM9
    Originally Posted by FulciLives
    Originally Posted by BM9
    From the beginning I prefer dealing with analog recorders (you can see my replies), but I'm really surprized by the results and could not prevent myself from telling you what happened with me
    In the future ... keep such "joy" to yourself.

    We got enough crazy here as it is!

    - John "FulciLives" Coleman
    OK John.. You don't have to believe me. I just want to ask you one question:

    You and others keep saying that the picture of 6 or 8 hours mode WOULD be terrible.

    Have you tried recording in EP mode by Sharp DV-HR400?

    Please say yes or no.

    If you haven't, then try to record first from a dvd player to the Sharp recorder in EP and tell me about the result.

    I can't say more.
    It makes no freakin' difference what model/make of DVD recorder it is ... digital is digital and yes some DVD recorders do a better job than other models ... but my point is ... digital is digital and digital means MATH and the MATH does not lie. At 6+ hours you are using VCD resolution (352x240 for NTSC or 352x288 for PAL) so right there you toss out a whole field of your video or 50% of the resolution that makes a difference.

    Next you are using bitrates that are down around that used for the VCD format and that is just not high enough of a bitrate to avoid compression errors ... especially on a noisy source like an SLP/EP speed tape ... but even true of a very clean source like a DVD.

    In short you have no f'ing clue what you are on about and you are now beyond annoying with your absurd assertions of quality at 6 hour mode.

    I should have just stopped after I farted as I had intended.

    - John "FulciLives" Coleman
    "The eyes are the first thing that you have to destroy ... because they have seen too many bad things" - Lucio Fulci
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  23. Guys, I'm not that surprised by all this. I mean anyone who thinks 12 hour VHS tapes are good would think 8 hours on a dvd would be acceptable. I think it's time to leave him to his extra, extra, extra long recordings

    I think it's about time to lock this puppy down and move on to something better.
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  24. Member
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    Originally Posted by FulciLives
    but my point is ... digital is digital and digital means MATH and the MATH does not lie. At 6+ hours you are using VCD resolution (352x240 for NTSC or 352x288 for PAL) so right there you toss out a whole field of your video or 50% of the resolution that makes a difference.

    Next you are using bitrates that are down around that used for the VCD format and that is just not high enough of a bitrate to avoid compression errors ... especially on a noisy source like an SLP/EP speed tape ... but even true of a very clean source like a DVD.
    Let me tell you something. First try to speak nicely and no need for dirty talking, we're here to share our experiences and ideas not to talk dirty.

    Second, I don't care about all that (.....) you said about math and resolution. I and all consumers want to be happy with the result. We want to be satisfied with the video we make.

    I made a very acceptable 6 hour dvd while you insest that it won't be good, but it was very good!!

    Do you want me to believe you and not believe my eyes?!!

    For all other people that asked me why I squeeze my tapes to a 6 or 8 hour dvds, I've said it before that I do this with my so many TV series and football matches tapes (more than 100 vhs each is 12 hours). With other important tapes like home videos and movies, I will use SP mode... I promise
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  25. Why don't you post some stills of your different captures, with their bit rates on TV screen. Maybe you are on to somethings.
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    Originally Posted by BM9
    Do you want me to believe you and not believe my eyes?!!-
    That's not the point IMO. The point is that WE don't believe YOUR eyes.

    It's like with audio, when people swear there is no difference to be heard between WAV files and low bitrate MP3s. - it gets funnier each time I hear this.

    When people have low expectations/standards, they're happy with anything half-decent, which I think is the case here. Just like some think that fast food tastes just as good as la grande cuisine.

    You think your 8-hours recordings look great? Good for you, but don't try to make us believe that what you see with your eyes is what is in actuality. Maybe you really need an optometrist? Or, more simply, maybe the salesperson cheated during the demonstration and you were looking at a XP or SP recording without knowing it? I've seen this happen...
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  27. Member VideoTechMan's Avatar
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    Well, FWIW, I never record anything beyond 2 hours, because while some dont care what the quality would look like in 4-8 hour modes, I am all for high quality and for that reasons anything beyond 2 hours in unacceptable. Even now on any new VHS recordings I may make I use SP mode only. Though I don't have a DVD recorder, if I did I would never go beyond two hours record time. I want the best quality I can get.

    VTM
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  28. Member
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    Originally Posted by Francksoy
    Originally Posted by BM9
    Do you want me to believe you and not believe my eyes?!!-
    That's not the point IMO. The point is that WE don't believe YOUR eyes.

    It's like with audio, when people swear there is no difference to be heard between WAV files and low bitrate MP3s. - it gets funnier each time I hear this.

    When people have low expectations/standards, they're happy with anything half-decent, which I think is the case here. Just like some think that fast food tastes just as good as la grande cuisine.

    You think your 8-hours recordings look great? Good for you, but don't try to make us believe that what you see with your eyes is what is in actuality. Maybe you really need an optometrist? Or, more simply, maybe the salesperson cheated during the demonstration and you were looking at a XP or SP recording without knowing it? I've seen this happen...
    Who told you to believe me??!!!

    I made a 6 hour recording and I'm very satisfied with it. What bothers you???!!!!

    It's not me.. It's them who keep saying that over 4hour recording would be terrible. Then I tried 6 hour and 8 hour and the result was much better than expected. And that was for less important vhs tapes like football matches and TV series.

    So you should say that to them not to me!!

    I tried the EP recording myselp while they said that they don't have to try it because they're sure that the result would be bad!!

    And what you said about the salesperson made me laugh

    I tried the panasonic and the sharp recorders in my house for 48 hours after I tried them at the shop.
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  29. Francksoy, You have some problem with the gourmet burgers from McDonalds, Wendys and Burger King? Next you'll be knocking the gourmet mexican food from Taco Bell.

    Just kidding of course, but as their sales figures show the quality is acceptable to most people. Locally for the cost of a complete McD's meal (small salad, 1/4 pounder, fries, beverage and desert) I can get much better quality and portions at my local diner here in NJ. Just not as fast as it isn't sitting precooked and packaged. Fast food wll have mnay more tims the volume of sales... a real Shame to. For a little time saved the quality lost is OK for the average person.

    BM9 said "I made a 6 hour recording and I'm very satisfied with it." to me that says yes the quality took a hit but I'm saving 60 cents in discs and a little time & that fits my needs.
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