alternative:
get a capture card that does *.avi capture. Drop the captured *.avi file in Avisynth :
Bob/De-interlace
resize
temporal & spatial filters (FFTDenoiser, deGrainmedian, RemoveDirt, PixieDust, etc)
re-interlace
enocde to DVD
Best way to go for bad VHS tapes. Bad news ----- Avisynth has a bit of a steep learning curve, but worth it.
How is that for a throwing a monkey-wrench into a discussion
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Can we see a before and after short motion clip example?
If I understand, you start with crappy EP VHS interlaced video, then you double the framerate with a bob deinterlace, then interpolate new lines with resize (do you vert account for the 1/2 line vertcal offset?). After that you noise filter? Then you are left with a 59.94 fps progressive sequence of highly mushed video. And then you interlace that to 29.97?
I have to see what this looks like with motion and or from a telecined source. Reminds me of reforming a chicken breast from chipped chicken meat. -
Yes, I know it sounds crazy, but visit the doom9.org avisynth usage forum. I went over there sometime ago and asked what was the best/most effective method to properly filter VHS caps. Check out a poster named Sharfis_Brain and others who share this principle. I am no avisynth expert by any means, but the explanation I was given (using layman's terms) is that if you bob and deinterlace if allows the spatial and temporal filters to better clean the clip. It takes some experimentation to find the right mix of noise cleanup and detail preservation.
I dont have a clip handy, but something like this does wonders (off the top of my head, here at work):
mgegsource(X:\xxxxx.d2v)
MVBob or LeakKernelBob or Tdeint(mode=1, type=3)
crop ()
LanczosResize(704,480)
FFT3Denoiser(*input parameters*)
DeGrainMedian(*input parameters*)
separatefields().selectevery(4,0,3).weave() *re-interlace
Kid you not, it works. Again you have to do try small test samples and find the right mix. Sounds convoluted, but effective. -
Tracking is fine, look great on TV.
still, I'll ask again for the 3rd time:
Would having a machine with a VCR built in and a HD help? In other words going from the VHS to the HD. Could that look better than what I see now going from VHS to a DVD recorder? thanks. -
Originally Posted by kevs
Finally, I would recommend against a recorder/vhs combo machine. In time as you convert more vhs tapes your appetite for increased quality will dictate additional equipment. Color correctors, Time based correctors, process amps, etc. Here is a typical set-up in my VHS-2-DVD conversion:
JVC SVHS 9800 --> Panasonic DMR-ES10 DVD recorder (used for tapes with vertical jump) --> Datavideo TBC-1000 --> BVP-4 Plus Proc Amp (for VHS with lots of probs with color/saturation/bright) --> Canopus ADVC-100 (for *.avi cap) or JVC DRMH30 (MPEG2 capture).
Most of the equipment was purchased on ebay in great condition, and saved a lot of money buying brand new stuff. -
Originally Posted by DVWannaBWant my help? Ask here! (not via PM!)
FAQs: Best Blank Discs • Best TBCs • Best VCRs for capture • Restore VHS -
Originally Posted by DVWannaB
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No, for MV removal, the TBC would have to be chained directly to the VHS player.
It is for stablization. The Panasonic is great from VHS tapes that bounce up and down (vertical). The Datavideo TBC-1000 is great for stabilization and video sync on the horizontal plane. The two work very well together.
Just caution though, you dont need such a filter chain on all your VHS transfers. Only the most problematic ones. -
The TBC serves a number of functions.
- Stability of image
- Prevention of recordings ending, as their are snow areas on the tape that tend to trip "no signal" on recorders, so the TBC outputs noise as image
- All fake copy protection problems, should any exist, are bypassed.
The DMR-ES10 tends to "cook" images a slight amount, as well as posterize the video, but if I'm using the ES10, we're in salvage mode, the video is on it's last legs, and I need to get it off as clean as possible. I can live with the small errors generated by the ES10, but I cannot live with the problems that the ES10 removed (tearing, in most cases).
It would be an extremely bad idea to use the ES10 in all transfers.Want my help? Ask here! (not via PM!)
FAQs: Best Blank Discs • Best TBCs • Best VCRs for capture • Restore VHS -
thanks DV wannabe, but I think you forgot to address my question of if you have a Recorder with VHS and HD, would going from VHS to HD and then burn to DVD-r, eliminate problems, ie, no cables,
all internal in same machine
maybe you would get a pure clean transfer, instead of going to VHS to DVD through cables. -
Originally Posted by DVWannaB
Originally Posted by DVWannaB
Originally Posted by kevs -
david, not just vhs combo, but vhs combo with HD. that's my specific question.
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kevs,
It may work on a short term basis. What I mean is that for your first few transfers that be a workable solution, whereby, you use just one combo VHS-Recorder machine. But if you want the utmost possible quality this may not be the best option. You will have to decide that. Why not get a combo machine and test it out. If you dont like it return it. This way you will have a better idea.
As I mentioned in my previous post, you have either a cable problem or your recorders input is defective. That will be test #1 before you do anything else. Then take it from there.
daviddeck,
I am not certain, but I believe the ES10 does not allow MV material to be passed through. Thats why if posted that if you have MV material, you will have to switch the filter chain and put the TBC-1000 ahead of the ES10.
The horizontal instability is inherent in the tape. If you are going to use a filter chain I used in one of my previous post, then I would recommend not to use the TBC on the JVC 9800. Then again, I would do a visual test to see what the resulting output would be with the JVC 9800 with TBC on or TBC off. If TBC is off, then I select video stabilization (which automatically disables the TBC) in the menu. Whatever Time Based issues remain with the tape I hope to correct with the Panasonic and teh Datavideo. There are times when I drop one of the two and sometimes both from the filter chain. There have been times also, where I use TBC on the JVC 9800, but issues remain with video stabilization. So it varies. Just keep in mind that while the JVC 9800 is a great unit, it sometimes needs help with problematic VHS tapes (is there anything other than problematic VHS tapes? ----Oxymoron ) -
Originally Posted by davideck
Originally Posted by davideck
None of the errors being corrected are generated by the units.
Now if you want to discuss equipped-generated errors:
- Some TBC-1000's have been known to display vertical lines or soften the image, but it seems to vary not only from unit to unit, but depends on the source it sees as well. Very random issue, few people have it, and ever fewer notice it when they do have it.
- The ES10 generates the errors I mentioned earlier, posterization is especially bad, and then it cooks the image's levels and IRE slightly.
- The JVC S-VHS players can sometimes cause tearing by the TBC, because the tape is so far gone, the JVC line TBC cannot lock down a clean signal. This is why the ES10 was added, and the JVC TBC bypassed. Beyond that, JVC S-VHS units almost always provide a picture far superior to other S-VHS or VHS players, with a few exceptions (most of which are tape related).
- Proc amps and detailers have drawbacks too, but that would almost require a page worth of writing. Keep your signal s-video when passing through these devices, to minimize bad experiences.Want my help? Ask here! (not via PM!)
FAQs: Best Blank Discs • Best TBCs • Best VCRs for capture • Restore VHS -
Originally Posted by kevs
And the Hard Drive's existence will have no effect on results as it will only store exactly the same video as burning direct to the DVD would store. It won;'t do any magical filtering or have effect on the video at all beyond making it easier to edit out commercials for example. There are no shortcuts. Some of your videos will mostlikely have defects of some sort and to make them look good will take good hardware not all-in-one wonders like a VHS/DVD recorder combo unit.
Counting the DVD recorder, S-VHS tape, and TBC alone I probably have around $1000 from last years purchases sitting there, then there is the older equipment that I bought previously that will allow me to adjust sharpness, color and so on.
Decide what you want, easy and low cost and low quality results OR good quality results that take a little longer and lot more money. If you want to do it right think a budget of $1000 or so for a budget home system that will handle most problems and $3000+ for a really nice home system that should handle all except really extreme cases. -
Originally Posted by DVWannaB
The JVC internal TBC/DNR is a special case because (unlike other TBCs) it does not provide continuous stable sync at its output. Instead, it sometimes generates vertical disturbances that can be corrected by a downstream TBC / Frame Synchronizer.
The TBC-1000, however, does provide continuous stable sync at its output. This prevents another downstream TBC from "seeing" any timebase errors (they have now been embedded into the video on top of stable sync).
All of the DVD Recorders that I have tested have built in frame synchronizers that also provide continuous stable sync at their passsthru output, including the ES20. I suspect that the ES10 is the same.
It would therefore surprise me if the TBC-1000 did anything (other than MV removal) when placed after the ES10. Similarly, the ES10 would not be able to remove any additional timebase errors when placed after the TBC-1000.
Does this concur with your findings? -
thanks Tbonniet:
so going from vcr to HD, wont help any more than vrc to DVD because it still analog to digital? -
Originally Posted by kevs
The recording from source to DVD disc vs. source to built-in HDD is exactly the same.
You gain no benefit from using a combo unit (I'm talking about those with a built-in VCR). In fact such a combo unit can cause more issues than not.
Best thing is to use a separate VCR and a separate DVD recorder ... you don't need a DVD recorder with a built-in HDD but it makes things "easier" especially editing.
I'm not sure why you are not getting a better signal (from the VHS) when using the TBC ... the model you have is a good model (the TBC that is).
Unfortunately some VHS tapes are so far "gone" in quality that nothing (or hardly nothing) can help.
Another thing to point out because I know this is frustrating you ...
VHS to TV is analog. Analog to analog. VHS to VHS is again analog. Analog to analog.
That process "hides" many errors that may exist in the VHS video. However when you try to go from VHS to DVD you are now doing not from analog to analog but from analog to digital. This is where problems that appear to have not existed now show up.
Generally speaking a Full Frame TBC (like the one you bought) should help. Another option is to buy a VHS VCR that has a built-in TBC (usually you have to buy a S-VHS model for this feature but a S-VHS VCR also plays back normal VHS as well as S-VHS). That kind of TBC works different than the one you bought ... sometimes it works better ... sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes you need one or the other or both.
But like I said sometimes the VHS video is so "mucked up" that nothing works.
One last thing ... the post by vhelp about using a miniDV or Digital8 camcorder is a good idea. It was discovered in a (somewhat recent) thread that these types of digital camcorders often have a built-in TBC (that is unadvertised) that works better than just about any other form of TBC. The only problem is ... these days ... very few new models feature recordable inputs ... but such models still do exist. I know Sony and JVC are good models to go with just make sure the model has recordable inputs.
- John "FulciLives" Coleman"The eyes are the first thing that you have to destroy ... because they have seen too many bad things" - Lucio Fulci
EXPLORE THE FILMS OF LUCIO FULCI - THE MAESTRO OF GORE
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Originally Posted by lordsmurf
The frame synchronizers that are built in to DVD Recorders are functionally equivalent to the TBC-100. They all lock to an input and guarantee continuous sync at their output. A frame of memory is required to do this, so claiming that a DVD Recorder has a "line TBC" seems inappropriate. Some DVD recorders simply do a better job of locking to an unstable input, thus providing better timebase correction capability.
Anti-copy is a separate issue. The DataVideo TBCs provide vertical blanking at their outputs, thereby removing any MV that existed at their input. The DVD Recorders that I have tested all regenerate MV at their output whenever they sense the presence of MV (properly or improperly) at their input. -
I have old Betamax tapes. Some of them are good and others with poor quality. When I record them to VHS (SP mode), the copies are great! they seem better than the original tapes!
Then I wanted to convert the VHS tapes to digital, so I bought ADS Xpress to record from my VCR to my PC. If the clip is clear, the digital copy would be great (with best quality recording), but if the clip is poor (recorded originally with a bad RF cable), the digital copy would be very bad. It would show big pixles (like when you zoom in a small pic).
I prefer that my recorder (whether it's a VCR or a DVD recorder) copy the same original quality, no need to try to improve it.
Another thing: the ADS Xpress device always stops recording when the picture is suddenly changing (from good to bad picture) or when lines apear on the screen (if the tape is old).
then I have to start over!! because all the recording will be useless!!
Does that happen with DVD recorders? (the recording stop and the big pixles)
Which DVD recorder doesn't do that? -
Originally Posted by BM9
None of the DVD Recorders that I have tested froze up like this either. The JVC unit falsely detected macrovision and stopped, but the other machines were all fine.
The blockiness is harder to eliminate. A VHS copy of a Beta tape also has embedded errors that can make matters worse.
It is best to use the original recording whenever possible. -
The ADS DVD Express is known to not handle unstable video well ... you will need a Full Frame TBC device.
The ADS Instant DVD 2.0 is similiar but more money because it has a much better chipset and not only is the quality a bit better overall but it handles unstable video better ... at least to an extent. If the video is very unstable then a Full Frame TBC will be needed.
However I've seen some great things from the ADS DVD Express ... but the sample clips I saw came from someone that was using a Full Frame TBC (it was the DataVideo TBC-1000).
I actually tested the ADS Instant DVD 2.0 myself and found the quality to be most excellent and I did not have a TBC to use with it yet it captured VHS video like a champ and it ignored copy protection. Another nice plus. The ADS DVD Express does, from what I here, forbid the copy of copy protected material.
- John "FulciLives" Coleman"The eyes are the first thing that you have to destroy ... because they have seen too many bad things" - Lucio Fulci
EXPLORE THE FILMS OF LUCIO FULCI - THE MAESTRO OF GORE
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Before one spent more $$$ on equipment to make a "unstable VHS" to DVD transfer. It may be cheaper to buy that VHS in New from amazon.com or alike. We are awash in mindless video, that I don't see a singel movie can mean't that much. Often, it is I can do it, Mucho menality, kind of need.
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Originally Posted by davideck
Have you tried Philips dvdr 915 or Sharp DV-HR300?
Originally Posted by davideck
Originally Posted by davideck
Originally Posted by FulciLives
1- Copy old and unstable videos (beta tapes) perfectly.
2- Doesn't stop recording after unstable videos.
3- Record as good quality as possible at 6hour or 8 hour mode (for other VHS tapes)?
OR
Should I buy TBC device and keep working with my DVD Xpress?
I want the best result with less effort no matter how much it will cost me. -
Originally Posted by BM9
Panasonic ES20
JVC DR-M100
Toshiba RD-KX50 -
Originally Posted by BM9
Unless you spend ungodly amounts of money (or look for an old professional unit on eBay) you basically have two choices.
The AVT-8710 which goes for about $190 US Dollars ... or ... the DataVideo TBC-1000 which goes for about $300 US Dollars.
Both can be bought at a variety of on-line websites but one website that I know of which carries both would be the B&H Photo & Video website.
If you search the forums you will find a thread where vhelp and I talk about the ADS DVD Express or Xpress or whatever they call it LOL
I feel that thread is important as it shows some screen caps that vhelp did with the unit and they are most excellent. I don't know if he can still supply it but he did supply me with at least one if not two or more actual video samples that he made possible for me to download and they were very nice looking. My own experiences with the ADS Instant DVD 2.0 (big brother to the ADS DVD Express) were very good.
One nice thing that is possible with both the ADS DVD Express and the ADS Instant DVD 2.0 is that they are capable of doing "I" frame only captures at a CBR of 15,000kbps video bitrate. This makes an excellent "master" capture which can then be further manipulated (i.e., cropped and filtered etc.) and then re-encoded to standard compliant MPEG-2 DVD spec using a software encoder such as CCE or TEMPGEnc Plus etc.
It is a nice feature for those videos that need some post clean up work.
- John "FulciLives" Coleman"The eyes are the first thing that you have to destroy ... because they have seen too many bad things" - Lucio Fulci
EXPLORE THE FILMS OF LUCIO FULCI - THE MAESTRO OF GORE
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Originally Posted by BM9
Of the units that I tested, the Toshiba had the best timebase correction capability.
I would also recommend recording in 2 hour mode. 3 hour mode maximum. -
Originally Posted by FulciLives
I converted ONE VHS and it took three days!! It's a 12 hour VHS and I had to reconvert it three times because of the stupid synch problems!!
Plus the laptop can't afford the whole process. It's getting extremely hot during the recording,
Originally Posted by FulciLives
Originally Posted by davideck
Which DVD Recorder can record old unstable videos from beta or vhs perfectly (of course I'll do it with XP or SP modes) and can record clear videos in 6hour or 8hour (better) mode?
I'm considering these models:
Sharp DV-HR400S, Philips DVDR 520H, 915, Panasonic DMR-E55, ES10, JVC DR-M100, DR-MH200.
I prefer it with HDD to edit the recording before burning it to DVD. -
Originally Posted by BM9Want my help? Ask here! (not via PM!)
FAQs: Best Blank Discs • Best TBCs • Best VCRs for capture • Restore VHS -
Originally Posted by lordsmurf
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