QT7 and Toast7 high settings end in pixelation

[soundchaser]

To back up those never-again-available tv things in VHS I record with QuickTime7, "device native" setting (the highest) which delivers a file of about 3.4 GB for a 90 minute program. Then I drop that into Toast 7 to make a DVD, setting the encoding to the highest too. The result is a VOB which on a 17 inch screen shows pixelation, so I guess it must be awful on a 29 inch TV. I'd rather watch the bloody cassettes, but I do it also for convenience (watching stuff in the ibook when traveling, etc.)
Am I missing something or is this a software limitation ?
I could use FinalCutPro4 which I have installed, but QT is so fast and hassle-free...
Any recommendations welcome...
Tks,

[terryj]

Learn what a BitRate is, and how to use a BitRate Calculator,
first of all.

Second, target what you want to do. If you want to watch on
your iBook, or archive it off onto DVD-ROM, then stop at
the High Bit rate QT file.
If you intend to camp on the couch and watch it on tv,
then obviously your going to be playing on a DVD,
and your player can only tolerate a certain bit rate, after
that, you get crappy picture, locking up dvd players, etc.
Also, you have to look at your equiptment...if you can only burn
standard layer discs, then their's no sense in trying to force
a high bitrate onto a DVD-5. if you can burn dual layer,
then you should author for that at a higher bitrate,
using FCP and DVDSP.

third, well, can't really think of a third, because one and two
are enough of a start.

[Frobozz]

I am greatly confused about how you're going about this. You mention VHS, so am I to assume you are converting video from a VHS tape to a DVD? If so, how are you importing this to your Mac? If not, how are you getting whatever is the source video onto your Mac?

Since QuickTime can't make an MPEG 2 file (needed for video DVD) my guess is you are using it to create an MPEG 4 file. Otherwise the file size would be much bigger than you're reporting. Then again, I think MPEG 4 should be smaller than that size. So I'm baffled about how you're using QuickTime.

Why is QuickTime involved at all? Why can't the video go straight to Toast 7 for encoding?

[soundchaser]

terryj, I am already getting into the stuff you mentioned, but since that will take a little while, I will answer dear end everhelpful Frobozz first. Frob, maybe I was a bit fast in describing the process, but I didn't want to get boring. Here it goes.
I want to make DVDs from some VHS stuff which, unlike movies, won't be available (things I recorded from TV). I have a G4 1.25ghz running Tiger with a Miro DC30 video card. That's how the VHS gets into the Mac to be digitalized. QuickTime 7 records video and audio (that's why it's involved), and that's what I use to record the stuff from the VHSs. It has 3 settings for video; I use the highest, which makes the largest files. The result is a Quick time .mov, which I drop into Toast 7 to make a DVD-video. It takes about 5 hours to encode that into mpeg2 / vobs (again I use the highest settings available) and is ready for burning.
My post is because although I work with large files and use the highest available video settings the resulting DVD is pixelated. I mentioned that I have FinalCutPro which might be better than QuickTime7 (which, terryj, has no options for bitrate adjustment)...so, there...Thanks guys. I' ll let you know

[Frobozz]

Thanks for the explanation. That all makes sense now. Somehow the highest quality that you're given to record with Quicktime isn't very high quality. For instance, if you had used the pass through from a DV camcorder to capture the video the 90 minutes would have required about 18 GB of hard drive space. Yours is taking less than 4 GB which suggests to me that it is 320 X 240 in resolution rather than 640 (or 720) x 480. When Toast does the encoding it resamples the video to 720 x 480 which will contribute to the pixelation problem. I believe you need to find a way to get a higher resolution transfer of the video to your Mac.

What does QuickTime or Toast say the resolution and frame rate of your video is?

[terryj]

terryj, I am already getting into the stuff you mentioned, but since that will take a little while, I will answer dear end everhelpful Frobozz first. Frob, maybe I was a bit fast in describing the process, but I didn't want to get boring. Here it goes.
I want to make DVDs from some VHS stuff which, unlike movies, won't be available (things I recorded from TV). I have a G4 1.25ghz running Tiger with a Miro DC30 video card. That's how the VHS gets into the Mac to be digitalized. QuickTime 7 records video and audio (that's why it's involved), and that's what I use to record the stuff from the VHSs. It has 3 settings for video; I use the highest, which makes the largest files. The result is a Quick time .mov, which I drop into Toast 7 to make a DVD-video. It takes about 5 hours to encode that into mpeg2 / vobs (again I use the highest settings available) and is ready for burning.
My post is because although I work with large files and use the highest available video settings the resulting DVD is pixelated. I mentioned that I have FinalCutPro which might be better than QuickTime7 (which, terryj, has no options for bitrate adjustment)...so, there...Thanks guys. I' ll let you know

Ok, hate to make you stop in the middle of a train of thought but to your points:

1.

I want to make DVDs from some VHS stuff which, unlike movies, won't be available (things I recorded from TV). I have a G4 1.25ghz running Tiger with a Miro DC30 video card. That's how the VHS gets into the Mac to be digitalized. QuickTime 7 records video and audio (that's why it's involved), and that's what I use to record the stuff from the VHSs. It has 3 settings for video; I use the highest, which makes the largest files. The result is a Quick time .mov, which I drop into Toast 7 to make a DVD-video. It takes about 5 hours to encode that into mpeg2 / vobs (again I use the highest settings available) and is ready for burning.

I had assumed ( I see now correctly) that you were using a capture card and using QT 7
for recording, which ( and I hope I don't offend you) most people
are starting to take the route of doing to get video quickly into their mac.
While this may be the quickest way ( directly recording into Toast 7 is another)
it is not always the BEST route, as you are learning. It is great for archival purposes,
or if you are doing shorter blips ( say under 15 mins) it can be a godsend
to get it quickly to ipod ready Mpeg-4 or email ready QT mov.

But for viewing on a TV as the end result, without pre-figuring bitrate calculations,
it can be a PITA.

2.

although I work with large files and use the highest available video settings the resulting DVD is pixelated. I mentioned that I have FinalCutPro which might be better than QuickTime7 (which, terryj, has no options for bitrate adjustment)

Yes it does. It's called Compressor, which is bundled with FCP.
You use FCP to NON LINEAR EDIT your video, NOT COMPRESS IT.
That is either the job of Compressor ( to fine tune it to an exact preset based upon
......wait for it......
a bit rate calculation!)
or
Quicktime, which if you have a legit copy of, should, I say should,
have installed the MPEG-2 option necessary to export out of QT
an MPEG-2 file that allows you to fine tune the compression
based upon......a bit rate calculation!


Here's what Many of us do using FCP.

1. Capture the video using FCP.
2. Non Linear Edit out the bad parts, commercials, promos, junk we don't want.
3. Export the video out to Compressor, prefiguring using a Bit Rate Calculator
the target Bit Rate for the END Result ( in most cases, DVD-5 to watch on TV)
4. kick back and let Compressor do its thing.
5. once done, drag and drop into DVD Studio Pro.

If you don't have DVDSP ( shame on you!) then you could export a
reference movie from FCP, and drop that into Toast 7,
and configure its bitrate settings under the "More" options button.

[soundchaser]

Having read your suggestions and taken a certain perspective of this I've figured out what will work best for me. The VHS stuff can be made into QT movies -as terryj suggested at one point- of whatever resolution, depending on their relevance, and that's it. So, it can still be watched on VHS on the TV and QT on the computer, but given its crappy original quality, most of it really doesn't deserve such a time-consuming process to end up with a DVD that will look just the same ! (Maybe you knew this all along, but from outside things seem clearer ah ?).
I will take advantage of your suggestions regarding FCP etc. when I record stuff from the dv cam into the Mac via Firewire. But that's another story innit !
Thanks guys,

[pianoman719]

I sympathize. Sometimes it seems like the easy way gives crappy results, while the professional tools turn something you want to be a "no-brainer" into a "project" that requires careful planning and execution. There may be a middle ground.

I'm not saying this approach is better than others - or even that it will work - but it involves three fairly simple steps, each of which is kind of a no-brainer once you know how to do it:

1. Capture at high data rate using BTV Pro

2. Cuts-only editing in MPEG Streamclip

3. Hand off to Toast 7 and let it do the rest.

I agree with Frobozz that you're losing a lot of quality by capturing from your DC30 at a low data rate. That card is supposed to be able to capture at up to 8 MB/sec, which should yield very good quality - provided you have a big 'ole hard drive where you can temporarily store all those GB (about 29 GB an hour). You might like to download the DC30 Xact Driver 1.6.1 from Squared 5, the same guy who does MPEG Streamclip!

http://www.squared5.com/svideo/dc30-xact-mac.html

He claims that you'll be able to capture using the shareware BTV Pro, which is a small niche application. The tryout is fully functional.

After capturing with BTV Pro, you could do cuts-only editing with MPEG Streamclip. I say this as somebody who likes to do idiot projects such as transferring some stuff from VHS without firing up a non-linear editor and turning it into a full-blown project.

After doing cuts-only editing in Streamclip, give the final QuickTime .mov to Toast 7 and let it do the rest. It should auto-chapter every 5 minutes, and create a decent quality DVD.

I'd be interested to know if this works for you, if the quality is good, and if you find it easier than the FCP + DVDSP route.

Of course, Terry might point out that you don't acquire much in the way of professional skills by using these "quick and dirty" methods of creating a DVD, but sometimes it's all you're up for.

-Pianoman

[terryj]

I'd be interested to know if this works for you, if the quality is good, and if you find it easier than the FCP + DVDSP route.

Of course, Terry might point out that you don't acquire much in the way of professional skills by using these "quick and dirty" methods of creating a DVD, but sometimes it's all you're up for.

-Pianoman

:P

[soundchaser]

Tks pianoman, I think you got the idea. When I talked about relevance I meant "How many more times will I watch this ?" The answer to that is basic in determining how much time it is sensible to invest in the project. In a couple of days I should be able to tell you how it went.
Tks all again,

[soundchaser]

Well, this is how it's going

I captured with BTV, using DC30+MJPEG A compression at best quality:
-A 110 minute feature which ended up at 36.3 GB
-A 24 minute feature which ended up at 2.51 GB
(No editing with Streamclip was necessary because though I may seem quick 'n dirty now, the vhs recordings were extremely clean 'n tidy). The quality with QuickTime player was ok, quite a lot better than my previous experiences. Anyway, at those sizes, one wouldn't expect less than ok...
I dropped them into Toast 7 with the encoding set in automatic. Exactly six hours later, it is still encoding the first (110 min) feature (G4, 1.25 mhz, 768 ram).
Will be back with final report.
Regards,

[soundchaser]

After 6hrs40min. Toast 7 finished encoding.
The result is both unsatisfactory and puzzling (could be my fault).
The short feature is acceptable, though not great, the edges are blurry. So working with very big files still doesn't deliver something similar to watching the vhs.
In the long one, when the image moves rather fast, all things get extremely saw-edged which is rather annoying. I think I read somewhere the reason for this...
The puzzling thing is that in Roxio Converted items (where the files processed by Toast 7 are placed if I'm right), the movie part (m2av I think) of the long feature is NTSC while the short one is PAL. How could this be, since you set Toast to either one of the systems, but not both...?
Regards

[havema-1]

> I captured with BTV, using DC30+MJPEG A compression at best quality:
> -A 110 minute feature which ended up at 36.3 GB
> -A 24 minute feature which ended up at 2.51 GB

What resolution did you use while importing? NTSC users should use 720x480 and PAL users 720x576 so there is no up/downsampling involved when then encoding the video-DVD. (I won't mention the Half D1 or other lower DVD resolutions here...).

Your codec might be better (at least it take more space than DV) but personally I would import as a DV stream (NOT as .mov) with either iMovie or BTV Pro, (edit), and then give it to iDVD or Toast to make a video-DVD. Using iMovie has the benefit of putting chapter markers at the desired spots.

Yes, DV isn't the best possible codec (it is 5:1 compressed) but I have got good results with it (with no messing with wrong field dominance etc).

[pianoman719]

Sorry , Soundchaser. I should have said to do some short tests first, to get it down to a predictable routine. Maybe I was too polyannish about the quality you can get.

There's a Miro DC30 User Guide in .pdf format here:

http://cdn.pinnaclesys.com/SupportFiles/modc30_e_20.pdf

Maybe with the DC30, 3 MB/sec is the real world limit, so that's what you should aim for: Best Quality, Limit Data Rate to 3000 K/sec. Although the files might seem huge, that's really not a very high data rate. Going from VHS to 3 MB/sec MJPEG capture, to MPEG2 will result in some noise, and some pixelation on fast action scenes. No way around it.

I'm curious whether you're using the OS X driver for DC30 by squared5 located here:

http://www.squared5.com/svideo/dc30-xact-mac.html

Does this allow the card to capture at a data rate higher than 3 MB/sec?

Personally, I prefer a sharp picture even if it has visible noise, so I do the opposite of what some hobbyist guides recommend: I often set my VCR to the "sharp" position when capturing.

Buried in BTV's Video Settings should be a screen that lets you set saturation, brightness, and contrast for the incoming footage from the DC30. Based on short tests where you capture and convert to MPEG2, you may want to punch up these settings slightly, depending on the program material. (If there's bad color noise on an old VHS tape, *reducing* the saturation might be good.)

Since you're struggling to get acceptable quality, if you don't have a dual-layer burner, you could burn a 110 minute feature onto 2 DVDs. (Just capture as Movie 1 and Movie 2, and have Toast make a separate DVD from each of them using a high quality setting). This should help a little to reduce the "saw-edged" or blocky quality of fast action scenes.

On my wish list is a standalone DVD recorder, because if you go direct from VHS to DVD, the results may be a little better. But there too, life is not all roses and eel pie. That is a different set of headaches. When my local electronics store puts the Panasonic DMR-ES20S on sale for $150, I'm tempted but am trying not to bite. Maybe a year from now I could get dual-layer for the same price.

In theory, Toast 7 should produce better results than iDVD. But in practice, I guess both apps have some rudimentary artificial intelligence about how to encode MPEG2 footage. You could create a short 2-minute highlights reel of captured VHS footage, run it through Toast, iDVD, and Compressor, and see which one best satisfies your taste.

Also note: If you're capturing correctly from the DC30, you should be able to play back the captured footage out to a TV. If not, you may have accidentally used the wrong codec during capture. BTV will let you capture incoming footage to a variety of QuickTime codecs; but you need to choose the one that's native to your card and drivers.

The daunting thing about analog capture cards is that there are so many settings to get right! Life got a little easier with DV. Havema raises a good point. If you're limited to 3 MB/sec with the DC30 card, but you have access to a DV converter, I would try using the DV converter rather than the DC30. Some DV cams can take an analog input from a VCR, convert it to DV in real time, and pass it out the FireWire port. Other DV cams can at least convert the analog input to DV during recording, then send the DV out the FireWire on playback.

My personal opinion is that analog capture cards which use a Motion JPEG codec at a variable data rate of 8 MB/sec or greater produce better-looking footage than DV conversion at 3.6 MB/sec. But DV converters are often cheaper, easier to use, and recognized natively by OS X with no need for special drivers. Also, it's possible that the current generation of tools like iDVD, Toast, etc. have been tweaked to give the best results from DV material. DV uses the same frame size as typical MPEG2 footage (720x480 NTSC), which may also help.

Despite many variables, I do think you can probably crunch this down to a "no-brainer" routine that works pretty well. A DV-based method might look like this:

- Use BTV Pro to import your VHS footage into the Mac through a DV converter device. Import a two-hour feature as two one-hour segments.

- If no editing is required, and you're satisfied with Toast's auto-chaptering at 5-minute intervals, then just hand a one-hour segment over to Toast, and have it create a DVD. Then repeat for the second segment.

- With the above method, you could optionally do cuts-only editing in MPEG Streamclip, which has nice J-K-L editing. Or you could use QuickTime Pro or BTV Pro to edit, with the advantage that you can save out the edit as a small reference movie. Toast or iDVD should be able to handle the reference movie and respect the edits.

- The whole point was to keep it simple. But obviously you can get a more refined product by moving up the food chain to programs like iMovie, FCP, Compressor, and DVDSP. Like you, for VHS transfers I want to do the minimum. For me, even iMovie is too big a commitment.

From a two-hour VHS tape, I sometimes like to make a highlights reel that's under an hour. I use BTV Pro to import segments of anywhere from 2 minutes to 25 minutes each, which I bring in through a DV converter box. I use filenames like:

001BoatingTrip.dv
002Xmas.dv
003Interview.dv
etc.

In MPEG Streamclip I can easily open the whole folder of files as one continuous stream. I do quick cuts-only editing and save out the file as a .mov. This wastes disk space compared to apps that can save out a reference movie, but I like Streamclip's snappy editing interface so much I don't mind. (Squared 5, you have a great product! Please help us out by adding the ability to save a reference movie from an edit of DV footage.)

If I had Toast, I would hand off the result at that point and let it produce a DVD with auto-chaptering. But since I don't, I use Metadata Hootenanny to quickly add chapters and create a final reference movie. Metahoot is a little eccentric, but works nicely if you ignore all the doodads and just use it for simple chaptering. More info in this thread:

https://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?p=1456090

Then I hand the final reference movie off to iDVD.

This is just my idiot method which I find fun. I realize there are advantages to using iMovie and other apps further up the food chain.

Note that I only have iMovie 4, which breaks up incoming DV footage into 2 GB segments. I've heard that more recent versions remove this limitation. If I had a newer version of iMovie, I might use it more.

What burns me about iMovie is that it would be so much better if Apple included a simple Utilities menu, like this:

Simple Capture

"Use this window to capture DV footage from a camcorder and save it with a filename and location of your choosing, for use by another program."

Simple Edit

"Use this window to open a file containing DV footage, do simple cuts-only editing, and save out a new flattened file or reference movie."

Simple Chapter

"Use this window to open a file containing DV footage, add chapter markers, and save out a new flattened file or reference movie."

Simple Effects

"Use this window to open a file containing DV footage, add up to three QuickTime Effects, and render out a new DV file."

Simple Title

"Use this window to create a simple title, and render it out to a DV file."

This would add so much flexibility to the way people work in iMovie, without confusing newbies in the least.

-Pianoman

[terryj]

Sorry , Soundchaser. (*snipped*)
- The whole point was to keep it simple. But obviously you can get a more refined product by moving up the food chain to programs like iMovie, FCP, Compressor, and DVDSP. Like you, for VHS transfers I want to do the minimum. For me, even iMovie is too big a commitment.

-Pianoman

...I'm actually at a loss of words on that one.....

[soundchaser]

Tks for your posts guys. Pianoman, before I got to read your last one, I repeated the process with BTVPro, since in my first try I mistakenly used BTV (I had never used either, hence the confusion in the haste of getting it done). There must be a substantial difference; what I could see is that BTV gave no output choice but a QT movie; BTV Pro had a couple of choices and I chose BT Movie. This, with the same settings as before, I found absolutely acceptable in quality. So, to sum up the process for future reference:

-110 minute VHS feature, captured through MiroDC30 card with BTV Pro, compression DC30 +MJPEG A, size 768x576, delivered a 36GB BTV movie.
-24 minute VHS feature, same capture as above, delivered an 8GB BTV movie.

Dropped both into Toast 7, encoding set in automatic, burned DVD.

(I hope this is useful ; as pianoman said, there are too many settings, and just one of them can make a big difference. Hope I didn't leave anything out.)

Both the BTV movies before the encoding, and the Toast DVD are for me wholly satisfactory; they have the same quality as the original VHS with no noticeable loss. This is what I was after.

What wasn't as nice was the encoding time which was a lovely 8 hours...I hope this will be reduced substantially when I upgrade my hardware from the present G4 1.25ghz to a G5 dual 2.3ghz.

terryj and pianoman, tks for your extended posts. I will be all for bitrate calculations and whatever is worthwhile when I work with quality source material which deserves it, such as my dvcam movies.

Bye then but not for long, since I'm right into posting my problem with osex