Encoder Dilemma! - (PCE or CCE Basic...?)

[VinBob]

Dear All,

I am looking to purchase either Procoder Express or CCE Basic for my encoding needs. I have read many comments on both tools but cannot decide which product to go with. I am primarily going to use the tool to convert old VHS tapes using the Canopus ADVC-100 capture hardware.

I understand both tools are very similar in speed and quality with CCE having the edge. Question I have, is which tool will produce better results for this type of application. Does Procoder have any better filters vs. CCE that would make it the winner or vise versa?

I have used the trial for CCE basic and like the 3 minute video results provided but unfortunately, there is no trial for PCE for me to make my own assessment. Therefore, any feedback would be greatly appreciated from those who have used both products and can provde any suitable guidance.

Thanks in advance!

[redwudz]

That's a hard choice. They are both very good encoders. CCE is a little harder to set up, Procoder may be a little more user friendly.

I'm assuming you plan to convert to DVD.

Filtering, IMO, is better done before encoding. If you are using DV for an input, then VirtualDub or AVIsynth are where to do your filtering. VD and AVIsynth have a lot of filters available. Look here: http://neuron2.net/

Then you can frameserve the edited/filtered video to your encoder.

I'm not proficient with AVIsynth, but it seems to be the best for running filters and frameserving to the encoder. A bit of a learning curve, but much faster than VD for that purpose.

[FulciLives]

AviSynth with CCE Basic is the way to go !!!

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[VinBob]

I am not familiar with AviSynth at all - is it difficult to use and is there a major learning curve? I would ideally like to be able to apply any suitable settings within the encoder itself to clean up as much as possible without having to get too involved in having to use any other tools. Are there any simple user guides or delivered templates that I would be able to use that would help in order to go down this additional avenue of AviSynth? To be honest, I would like something more on the simple side as I am not looking for the most amazing quality but then again, I would like to clean the Video as easily as possible where needed.

Thanks for the feedback...!

[FulciLives]

Here is a guide I wrote on using Convolution3D which is a "video noise" filter that works with AviSynth. I also cover how to import edits done with VirtualDubMod into your script.

Here is a link to the guide ---> CLICK HERE

If you read it and think about it ... it really is not that difficult. However if you think it is "too much" for you then perhaps TMPGEnc Plus would be the best choice for you as it is a bit easier to use. It does have 2 downsides. 1 is that it works within the RGB colorspace which is not optimal ... also it can be SLOW as hell. Having said that it does produce excellent quality.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[VinBob]

Wow - quite a lot to digest here!!!

Many thanks for the information and guide - Is this the latest and greatest version of the document as I noticed some errors/issues here and there from comments posted later in the thread and was wondering whether you had another version.

I am also capturing using Canopus ADVC-100 so I assume I need to download the first version mentioned. Also, any reason why I should go with TMPGenc as an alternative and not Procoder Express?

Thanks again!

[W_Eagle]

I have both, plus TMPGEnc 3.xx XPress all 3 for few years (actually, at first TMPGEnc 2.xx and than 3.xx).

After playing around for a a while with all 3, for daily encoding I use only TMPGEnc (I'm doing few encodings a day, on 2 dedicated PCs).

This is because I found TMPGEnc to be most flexible and much easier to master and use than CCE (that is, CCE SP 2.5, 2.6 and 2.7). Trying to master AVISynth scrips seemed to have a too high learning curve for. I found Canopus Procoder to be the least flexible of all 3. I use Procoder only for for system converting NTSC->PAL and PAL->NTSC. System converting Procoder (1.5) does great.

The quality of TMPGEnc is all I need, while I don't mind it being somewhat slower than CCE. Anyhow, in my workflow I cannot frameserve from VirtualDub to the encoder -- first I normalize the audio (and convert to AC3 at the same time) with Sony Vegas.

Just my 2 cents.

[TBoneit]

Why not try the tiral of TMPGEnc Xpress and see if it has all the filters you would need?

I use it and have used the filtering to adjust audio sync, and fix video settings. Keeping in mind that what you see on your computer display is not what it will look like on a TV, The TV will look much brighter for example.

[VinBob]

Well, I was actually considering TMPGenc Xpress especially as I use their product for DVD authoring. However, I heard that it is slower than the other two products and believe I also read somewhere that it does not do as good a job for analog to DVD conversion.

Anyone have any further comments on Procoder Express? I am leaning towards this for ease of use although I should be able to cope with CCE and Avisynth with a littler perseverence if I do eventually go down this route.

[TBoneit]

I found it to deliver decent speed and decent quality even when i run it one pass CBR mode.

Many here will say TMPGEnc delivers very good encodes not speedy encodes. Depends on what you want. I run it overnight where I can have it create 4 DVDs worth of mpgs while I sleep. The built-in batch encode tool works quite well.

The fastest encoder is not fast enough for me to sit and wait for it. So I encode overnight and author when I get a chance. In terms of time used setting up the encodes takes the least, I spend more time authoring and burning.

The encoder will slow down the computer while running as it should and generally will use 100% of the CPU.

Anyway that is my workflow.

[bits]

I have been using CCE Basic for years and about a year ago I gave Procoder express a try. Both are good and you will not go wrong with either. I personally prefer CCE Basic, especially because it is so simple to use and is hands down much faster than TMPGenc.

I also use an ADVC-100 and I have recently been converting DV avi from my digital miniDV camcorder. In my opinion, you really do not need to do the 3D filtering, just drop your DV avi file into CCE Basic, use a (1)pass CBR of 6-8Mb, a quality setting of around 20-28 and output as a program stream so that there is no remuxing of audio and video.

CCE Basic also has a nice little feature in that you can load your avi and select only the part you want to encode, works really slick.

[VinBob]

Thanks for the feedback all especially Bits who has both programs. Man, this is a tough decision although it shouldn't have to be!

Bits,
In terms of speed, is CCE quicker than Procoder Express as you seem to compare the speed between CCE and TMPGenc? Also, feature wise, will I get more with CCE than PCE down the road?

Thanks again to everyone for your feedback as this is driving me crazy!

[bits]

Thanks for the feedback all especially Bits who has both programs. Man, this is a tough decision although it shouldn't have to be!

Bits,
In terms of speed, is CCE quicker than Procoder Express as you seem to compare the speed between CCE and TMPGenc? Also, feature wise, will I get more with CCE than PCE down the road?

Thanks again to everyone for your feedback as this is driving me crazy!

PCE has more options, you can convert not only to mpeg but to WMV, DivX and Quicktime. It is not quite as fast as CCE but is still faster than TMPGenc. As I said, I prefer the mpeg encoding result from CCE but the difference is really not that striking.

If you are going to edit your avi, use filters, then it is worthwhile learning how to use virtualdubMod. You do not necessarily need to use AviSynth to use the filters available in virtualdub. I am far from being an expert with vdub but applying filters is pretty straight forward, just be sure to output as DV avi.

[VinBob]

I managed to find a download for Procoder Express via the Eidus Pro 3 software trial and performed an encode of a 50 minute file.

The results were very good although no better than CCE or TMPGEnc Xpress from what I could tell. However, what I did find, is that the file created was almost an extra 1GB in size compared to the other encoders!

I made sure that the settings for both audio and video were the same as per the other encoders. I am now trying another encode using the MPEG-2 manual settings versus the DVD option I selected first time around using the PCE wizard. Will report back once I have he next output file and results.

What was interesting though apart from the much larger file size, is that the encode took 1h 45m (for 50 minute video) compared to a little over 2 hours for all the other encoders - speed wise, it seems to be the quickest!

[Wile_E]

However, what I did find, is that the file created was almost an extra 1GB in size compared to the other encoders!

What was interesting though apart from the much larger file size, is that the encode took 1h 45m (for 50 minute video) compared to a little over 2 hours for all the other encoders - speed wise, it seems to be the quickest!

You sure you used the same audio settings? WAV or MP2? The audio file size should be the same for all encoders as long as you use the same bitrate. Without using any additional filters, CCE has always been a little faster compared to Procoder Express in all my tests. Did you use "High Quality" mode in Procoder? "Mastering Quality" is known to be a faster encode. Probably a bug. For VHS, you will probably need additional filtering anyway using Avisynth and a filter like Convolution3D. This will slow any encoder down.

[VinBob]

From what I can tell, the MPEG encoded file is almost identical to the AVI file in quality (on my computer screen) which is captured from my ADVC-100. That being the case, is there a need to be able to apply the filtering through Avisynth?! Can someone please educate me on when I would need to apply the filtering through another application as my captures seem to be true to the quality of the video coming through the VHS to DVI source. I also have the video go through a TBC unit before it hits the ADVC for capture if anyone is wondering.

As for the settings, I just checked my PCE parameters and I am using;
MPEG Audio Layer II
224kbps
Stereo

VBR-2pass
Video Bitrate 8000
Max Bitrate 9000
Min Bitrate 2500
Quality/Speed - Highest Quality

How do these relate to other encoder settings? I just want to make sure I am doing the same thing. For CCE, I noticed there is an 'avergae' bitrate you can specify but not in PCE. Not sure what the 'video bitrate' serves other than it seems to suggest for display purposes?

I managed to get the file down to 3.1GB but still way to large in comparison. I also just noticed that my max bitrate on the other tools was 8000 so I am going to set to 8000 and see if we get closer. Will report back soon again.

Thanks,
Vin.

[bits]

From what I can tell, the MPEG encoded file is almost identical to the AVI file in quality (on my computer screen) which is captured from my ADVC-100. That being the case, is there a need to be able to apply the filtering through Avisynth?! Can someone please educate me on when I would need to apply the filtering through another application as my captures seem to be true to the quality of the video coming through the VHS to DVI source. I also have the video go through a TBC unit before it hits the ADVC for capture if anyone is wondering.

As for the settings, I just checked my PCE parameters and I am using;
MPEG Audio Layer II
224kbps
Stereo

VBR-2pass
Video Bitrate 8000
Max Bitrate 9000
Min Bitrate 2500
Quality/Speed - Highest Quality

How do these relate to other encoder settings? I just want to make sure I am doing the same thing. For CCE, I noticed there is an 'avergae' bitrate you can specify but not in PCE. Not sure what the 'video bitrate' serves other than it seems to suggest for display purposes?

I managed to get the file down to 3.1GB but still way to large in comparison. I also just noticed that my max bitrate on the other tools was 8000 so I am going to set to 8000 and see if we get closer. Will report back soon again.

Thanks,
Vin.

If you are satisfied with the video reproduction, then there is no need for avisynth and filtering.

I have found that using single pass CBR at 7-Mb bitrate will do the job quite nicely and will encode faster than 2 pass VBR. The main reason for using VBR would be to try and save some disk space.

[VinBob]

No joy - Unfortunately, Procoder Express seems to create larger files than CCE, TMPGenc and Mainconcept encoders. There does not seem to be a "mastering" quality mode as I believe this is only available in the full product.

I think I will probably go with PCE over the others as I do like the output quality and it seems to be more than quick enough for my needs and very easy to use. However, I am not happy about the larger file sizes. Can anyone steer me in the right direction as to what I may be doing wrong or will this be more a question for Canopus tech support?

Thanks in advance for any help advise you good people offer!

[bits]

No joy - Unfortunately, Procoder Express seems to create larger files than CCE, TMPGenc and Mainconcept encoders. There does not seem to be a "mastering" quality mode as I believe this is only available in the full product.

I think I will probably go with PCE over the others as I do like the output quality and it seems to be more than quick enough for my needs and very easy to use. However, I am not happy about the larger file sizes. Can anyone steer me in the right direction as to what I may be doing wrong or will this be more a question for Canopus tech support?

Thanks in advance for any help advise you good people offer!

Did a little test:

DVavi file size=824Mb

PCE
CBR=8Mb
Highest Quality
256/48/Stereo
720x480 Program Stream
Time to encode=6:45
Final File Size=236Mb

PCE
CBR=8Mb
High Quality
256/48/Stereo
720x480 Program Stream
Time to encode=4:23
Final File Size=235.7Mb

CCE
CBR=8Mb, Single pass
Quantization=28
256/48/Stereo
720x480 Program Stream
Time to encode=2:55
Final File Size=238.7Mb

There must be something in your PCE settings that is causing the reduced encode time and larger file. The results I got are consistent with what I have gotten in the past.

[VinBob]

Bits,

I really appreciate you taking the time in testing on your end and getting back to me with some great feedback.

I was actually testing VBR and not CBR so I wonder if this is where the problem lies. The other possible issue is that you may have a more up to date version of PCE where as I may not have the latest patched version as I am using the demo via Eidus Pro 3. Possible...?

Also, can you please confirm how PCE min,max and video bitrates transalte to CCE as I want to make sure I am putting in the same values on both sides as I continue to test on my end. I guess we can safely say that PCE produces same file sizes as per CCE which is good, but I would really like to be able to produce the same results on my end for my sanity!

Thanks again!

[bits]

VinBob wrote:

Also, can you please confirm how PCE min,max and video bitrates transalte to CCE as I want to make sure I am putting in the same values on both sides as I continue to test on my end. I guess we can safely say that PCE produces same file sizes as per CCE which is good, but I would really like to be able to produce the same results on my end for my sanity!

I am not sure what you mean. If you use a Constant Bit Rate in both apps then min and max does not come into play.

[VinBob]

Sorry for the confusion - If you notice from my prior posts, I am actually referring to and testing with VBR-2 Pass. This will allow me to create a more space saving optimal file and output to a single file without the need to mux the seperate video and audio files using CBR method.

[bits]

Sorry for the confusion - If you notice from my prior posts, I am actually referring to and testing with VBR-2 Pass. This will allow me to create a more space saving optimal file and output to a single file without the need to mux the seperate video and audio files using CBR method.

In PCE, if you choose Generic ISO MPEG and MPEG-2 Program Stream your video and audio are muxed when using CBR. You just have to change the file extension to mpg. In CCE Basic, if you use VBR, then you must re-mux because it only allows Elementary Streams.

If I get a chance I will try VBR 2pass in both apps. min=5Mb, max=8Mb.

I am not a big fan of demuxing and remuxing, which is probably one reason why I have settled on CBR at 7-8Mb using CCE Basic. The other is that the actual file size savings using VBR just did not justify the additional complications that seemed to arise. Constant sufficient bitrate for pretty much anything that came along in a video seemed to me to be a simple but solid approach.

[TBoneit]

The large file size, 1Gb larger, sure sounds like LPCM audio not AC3 or MP2 audio.

Just curious PCE & CCE don't output AC3 audio? TMPGEnc Xpress does for me as I use the AC3 Plugin and I believe it ios standard in the new Tsunami version. So for me AC3 audio and overnight batch processing does it.

Cheers

[VinBob]

Bits,

You are right on the money - I just tried your settings and it does create a single file with a .m2p extension and not .mpg.

One last question which has not been answered, is the comparison of the VBR bitrate settings which seem to be a little different between CCE and PCE. CCE seems to have an average bitrate which is not available in PCE and PCE has Video Birate which CCE does not.

Last but not least, I am interested to know why you are using CCE and not PCE yourself...?!

Cheers,
Vin.

[bits]

VinBob wrote:

Last but not least, I am interested to know why you are using CCE and not PCE yourself...?!

Good question and one not easily answered. I have had CCE Basic for years now and it did a great job on my family VHS and 8mm tape. About 6 months ago I purchased PCE for DV avi conversion to either DivX or WMV. I had recently purchased a MiniDV camera and wanted to send small snipets of family stuff to my children. There are other programs to do these things but since I heard good things about PCE mpeg encoding I thought that would be a bonus.

I am now in a position to start putting the family miniDV stuff on DVD and I am actually trying to decide which to use. Judging the quality of the mpeg endcode is very subjective, having said that I think CCE is bit more vibrant color wise than PCE.

Personally, I am glad I have both apps but if I had to choose one I would probably go with PCE simply because it can convert to other formats. If converting to other formats is not something you think you want to do then CCE Basic is a good choice. BTW I have pretty much given up on re-encoding to other formats for file size reduction, just not worth the effort.

[VinBob]

Thank you and I do appreciate the comments from your experience. I don't really need to encode to other format types but I know I may need it in the future which is another reason why I am leaning towards PCE. I do like CCE though and if it offered the other options, I would have bought CCE already! I also love the interface and the ease of use with PCE via the Wizard.

When you say you have given up on converting to other file formats, do you mean using VBR-2 pass or other formats as in WMV, DiVX etc.? Also, any thoughts on the question about the comparison of bitrates so that I can match up like for like with my additional testing between the two before I purchase?

Truly appreciate your time and help...!

[bits]

Thank you and I do appreciate the comments from your experience. I don't really need to encode to other format types but I know I may need it in the future which is another reason why I am leaning towards PCE. I do like CCE though and if it offered the other options, I would have bought CCE already! I also love the interface and the ease of use with PCE via the Wizard.

When you say you have given up on converting to other file formats, do you mean using VBR-2 pass or other formats as in WMV, DiVX etc.? Also, any thoughts on the question about the comparison of bitrates so that I can match up like for like with my additional testing between the two before I purchase?

Truly appreciate your time and help...!

I have pretty much given up on DivX, WMV, H264 ect... The actual file size reduction while maintaining high quality, quality that can be viewed on a large screen TV, is not enough to justify the effort. Also, once you convert to one these formats there really is no going back. It is not like zipping a data file where there is no data loss. Data is lost and your not getting it back. For hand held devices and 9" TVs is may be the way to go but not for day in day out viewing on a large screen TV.

If I get a chance later this evening I will play a bit with the difference between CCE and PCE variable bit rate settings.

[VinBob]

I agree - Although if you are dealing with a nice clean video source file, you would be surprised at the results you can get with Divx. If you are converting over 100 tapes as I am, you will certainly appreciate the ability to be able to put 4-6 (if not more) hours of video onto a single DVD!

I ended up purchasing Procoder Express after all of the above. Ironically, I ended up being able to compare the two encodes (CCE and PCE) using Quicktime so that I could compare like for like and as you mentioned, the CCE encode was a little more richer than the PCE output. Having said that, I guess you can't have it all as there is no one perfect solution out there especially at this price point, so I am going to have to be happy with PCE! [/i]