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  1. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by MeekloBraca
    my JVC DRM70S which apparantly is only available in Canada.
    The DR-M70 is primarily a PAL unit only, sold in UK and Europe. A "DR-M70U" is being sold in Canada.

    If anything, the "70" line is apparently a stripped-down version of the DR-M100S (the 70 supposedly lacks FR mode, for example). Everything else inside the unit (filters, for example) is identical. There is really no variation in the JVC equipment, aside from the LSI generation and the PSUs. The 10, the 1000, the combos ... they all work the same, on the DVD recording side.

    I'm sure you observed things that drew you to the conclusion you have, between your 70 and 100, but it's factually false. You're going to need to look elsewhere for your reasonings, as the science and technology does not agree with your opinions.
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  2. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    A, B are fine
    C, D, E too dark
    C is pretty terrible, actually, has a red chroma shift

    Actually, there are things I could pick to death in A and B, but it's because VHS is clearly the source (note the bottom overscan noise). It's all easily corrected in a proc amp.

    I think part of the problem is people do not understand how to work with images and video. You need contrast and saturation, yes, but you need to be somewhat true to reality and not get carried away.

    You know, I'm sitting here at my desk. I have blacks and whites and colors all around me. But my whites are not super hot bright whites. My blacks are just coal colored, not pure black. The colors range from vivid to not so vivid. The world has more colors than what you can cram into an 8-count crayon box. However, some people insist on turning video into an 8-color palette. That's flat out wrong, bad skill, improper imagery. If your DVD recorder does not make all colors really saturated, and it lacks pure white and black, that's a good thing. It's true to reality, it's not butchering the image.
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  3. B first
    A a close second
    E third
    D fourth
    C fifth
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  4. Member
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    Lord Smurf makes an excellent point. I think some people like to "distort" their video because in their own subjective way, they think it looks better even though it isn't true to life. Some like too much or too little contrast or too bright or not bright enough etc. This is also true with audio. Some people like to listen to music with the bass cranked all the way up to max and others like a lot of treble. There's nothing wrong with doing that but they are "distorting" it to suit their personal tastes. Where it crosses the line is when people criticize audio or video that isn't custom distorted to match their personal taste. Itís OK to tweak your home entertainment system to match your personal audio and video tastes. Just don't confuse your personally preferred distortion with technically correct audio or video reproduction. You can always add your personal distortion to properly recorded video but you can't fix it so that it is technically correct if it is recorded with the "distortion" in it. For example, if you like super black and record everything from medium gray to black all to look super black, the gray variations are killed in your recording and it can't be corrected after the fact. To put it another way, adjust your TV or audio system to play with your preferred "distortion". Don't record it that way.
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  5. Member vhelp's Avatar
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    Ok.. here is what I thought about each pic..

    How I judged these pics, I used a tool that I deleveloped (very long timer ago)
    for this sort of stuff - testing. And, part of what this app does is,

    A) open multipile pics (drag-n-drop onto canvas) and
    B) then flip through each one.. among other features.

    Anyways.

    After careful (though quick) analysis, I narrowed it down to two pics, and
    in the order (good to worse) were:

    ** PIC A
    ** PIC E

    The reason I chose PIC A was simple. It had the least amount of noise, and
    most in *smoother* detail.

    The rest were either too dark (and hid/consieved the noise) or they were just too
    noisey in varoius areas. Mind you, I thought they were all good pics to begin with,
    but you say (ask) to choose which one we liked best ?

    I vote for PIC A in all honesty
    (PIC E was my second choice)

    -vhelp 3844
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  6. Member jeffshead's Avatar
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    Ok folks,

    I want to thank each and everyone for all of your comments on this thread and for all of the invaluable advise I have received in all the other threads.

    I was hoping to get some feedback from the Toshiba crowd before going over this. Anyway, here we go.

    All the caps were from a commercial release VHS tape played on a JVC HR-S7600U VCR.

    Here is the list of machines and caps:

    A: JVC DR-M100
    B: SignVideo DR-1000 (more sharpness)-->SignVideo PA-1000 (less saturation)--> JVC DR-M100
    C: Sony RDR-GX300
    D: Toshiba_D-R4
    E: SignVideo DR-1000(less sharpness)-->SignVideo PA-1000 (more saturation)--> JVC DR-M100

    Here are my personal opinions on PQ:

    1: B. JVC: A touch too much sharpening, saturation and black level just right.
    2: E. JVC: Slightly over saturated, sharpening and black level just right.
    3: A. JVC: Too light compared to the source. Saturation is good.
    4: D. Toshiba: Just a touch over saturated and a tad too dark, good detail. Over all, a good picture without the use of enhancement equipment.
    5: C. Sony: Over saturated, too dark, loss of detail, blocky.

    You may ask, ďWhat in the hell is the point of all this?Ē ďYour results prove nothing because you added an image enhancer and proc amp!Ē

    Well, I have come to the conclusion each DVD recorder has its own nitch and I want to help others better understand the value of each so they can better determine what features are most important to them and how much money they want to invest in equipment.

    Sony RDR-GX300: Best time saver, sturdiest construction, and easiest to use.
    Pros:
    Very well made unit. Both construction and functionality beats the others. Easiest to use. PC can read VR or Video formatted discs without finalizing them. Thatís a huge time saver. Two sets of in and out connectors( s-video & composite) on the back and a third in the front.

    Cons:
    Price, loss of detail, blockiness, over saturated, dark image. Any recording over 3 hours suck. Image quality is still not bad at all. Beats the hell out of the two Panasonic I owned.

    JVC DR-M100: Best PQ. Lacks functionality.
    Pros:
    Easy to use, cost, awesome filters that keep color, detail, yet remove just enough noise.

    Cons:
    Caps are too light. I know some will disagree, but they are just a tad too light. Maybe the pics below will explain why people have a difference of opinion on this subject. Just bare with me and keep reading. Cannot turn noise reduction off. Only one set of in and out connectors on the back. Have to wait up to 15 minutes to finalize discs before they are readable in a PC.

    Toshiba D-R4: Great PQ. Closest to source (viewing on TV) without using a proc amp or enhancer.

    Pros:
    Functionality, price, donít really need to alter black level, saturation, sharpness.

    Cons:
    Slightly over saturated image, one set of in and out connectors on the back, have to wait to finalize discs before they are readable in a PC.



    Here are some pics from a commercial release DVD played on the JVC and Toshiba. All were captured using an ATI 8500 AIW. The output black level of each was a real surprise to me!

    JVC DR-M100-->AVT-8710-->ATI 8500 AIW

    Just right for this video. If a disc captured by the JVC is played back on the JVC, the image may not appear to be as light as it does when played on other players. I have six different player only units (different makes) and the JVC images always appear to be a smidge too light. Majority rules. Thatís why I feel the JVC produces images that are too light.

    Toshiba D-R4 (all setting set to standard)-->AVT-8710-->ATI 8500 AIW

    This was a real shock. The image is lighter than the JVC! I guess playback on this unit will compensate for the slightly over saturated and darker recordings it creates.

    Toshiba D-R4 (Output Black Level set to enhanced)-->AVT-8710-->ATI 8500 AIW

    Just right for this video.

    The bottom line.

    So what does this mean? Well, I understand distortion. I am trying to match the output of the source as close as possible. Maybe the source is slightly over saturated or too dark, but time after time (on different players and TVs) the JVCís caps are always lighter than the source. If I had it to do all over again, I think I would just go with the Toshiba or maybe a Pioneer and none of the other equipment. But now that I own it and like what the proc amp and enhancer can do, I am going to stick with them and the JVC. For those who do not want to spend a lot of time recording, donít have a huge Hi-Def TV, not worried about having the best possible picture quality (by a slim margin), and not wanting to add the expense of proc amps and enhancers to restore detail, you canít go wrong with the Toshiba. Just an all around good component that will give you great unaided results without the expense of additional equipment. The Pioneer probably shares the same attributes.
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  7. Member vhelp's Avatar
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    Don't take effense to any of this..

    Ahh.. IMHO, gshelley61 was right.. the JVC DR-M100 is his best
    (and winning) performer. Based on the latest demo pics above,
    (in previous page) I have to agree (so far) with his prefered
    choice

    As I menionted in prev post, I thought all the pics were good.

    But, I think that for such a test (despite your notes above, about why
    you used external processors) these "helpers" shoul have not been in
    them. I mean, the whole point of a test, is to rule out anything that
    might cause or influence what a device was intended for. Also, when
    people are deciding upon a one of these units, performing such tests
    should (IMHO) never inlude external "helper" tools, why ? Simply
    because most users will not have the same such devices as you in their
    own decision-making tests. I mean, on average, nobody is going to throw
    in a pro am or detailer, etc. to determine the best choice.

    As such, these external tools are considered *after* a final choice unit.
    Serious, these tools should not be part of a demonstration for other users
    or memeber to see because IMC's, they do not have such devices.

    ( course, it would be different is others evidenced that they have the same
    external tools as you, and you demonstrated these pics as such, not to
    mention, the setting(s) values/params by this tools )

    Now, based on that, IMHO, the previous test done was biased (not to mention,
    tainted) by the use of external tools. Oh well. I know you mean well
    in all, but when making a final choice, external tools are usually not
    available nor required at that point in time.

    Still, it was an interesting demonstration - thanks

    -vhelp 3845
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  8. Member jeffshead's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by vhelp
    Also, when
    people are deciding upon a one of these units, performing such tests
    should (IMHO) never inlude external "helper" tools, why ? Simply
    because most users will not have the same such devices as you in their
    own decision-making tests. I mean, on average, nobody is going to throw
    in a pro am or detailer, etc. to determine the best choice.
    Thanks for the input vhelp. No offence taken. You are precisely right when you said most users will not have the same such devices as you in their own decision-making tests. My sole purpose of this test was to demonstrate, to those who have not, what can be achieved with a little bit of money vs. the results gained by making a substantially larger investment in equipment. The comparisons might help others decide if the investment is worth the difference in PQ.

    There were so many good things said about the JVC, I bought one. Then I saw how much lighter the image was, as compared to the source, so I purchased a proc amp to correct it. I agree that the JVC has the best PQ. I just donít like the lighter image (personal preference) and several others feel the same way. I should have purchased the Toshiba before buying the proc amp. For me (27Ē TV), the Toshiba would have been adequate.

    So the way I see it, I can have the best PQ with the JVC, but a proc amp is needed. Or I can have almost as good quality (remember, 27Ē TV) with the Toshiba for less money. The JVC by it self is just not an option for me because of the lighter image and I just wanted others to be aware of what you get and donít get for the money.

    Just trying to explain my reasoning.
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    Thank you guys so much for all the valuable information. However, it doesn't answer my questions other than to confuse me even more now that I have read, gone to the stores and researched until my mind is a state of mud. Please help me realize the necessity for all of this before I go insane...or is it too late?

    Ok, here is what I am faced with: 1) I have DVD +Rs and DVD -Rs that I have made over a couple of months. I never realized that I would need to use different types of media for different kinds of players, much less now looking to buy a DVD recorder the necessity for different media in different recorders. 2) I also have SVCDs that I made in the early stages of video production that I am looking to keep and watch as well. So, my dilemma is that I have all this media to watch and now that I have a spindle of DVD-R I am going to need a DVD Recorder/Player that will recognize just about all of these. 3) I also would like to put all my VCR owned tapes onto DVD as well.

    Hopefully, someone has some insight on this. I have gone to all the websites and looked up as much as I could and found that Toshiba DR-4 only does DVD-R/RW etc... Panasonic does only DVD+R/RW etc... JVC DVD+R/RW..... LiteON 1107 does DVD+R, DVD-R, DVD+RW, DVD-RW but it says to be careful that some discs are not compatible. That seems to be the case everywhere. Found a Sony RDRGX315 that will play all of them but is really pricey! I did find a LiteOn 1107 for $99 at Best Buy....Just wondering if the $186 for Sony would be better than $99 for LiteOn......?

    I really wanted the Toshiba DR-4, however the inability to read and copy onto multi formats was a drawback. Can someone help me with this because I haven't seen a thread for this MULTI format Recordable media....Thanks again for all your help!
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  10. OK, I guess I should weigh in here since my name came up several times. I basically agree with the observations about those test posts. The JVC recorder caps look the best overall because of the superior analog video noise filtering and MPEG2 encoding on longer recording times. The Toshiba D-R4 has no input video noise filters, so VHS caps can be a little problematic for it's encoder if there is siginificant grain, streaking or chroma noise. My point is that both units are excellent, and have their strong points.

    As far as black levels go, the JVC units simply do not apply any adjustment to the source video black level, and on DVD playback do not add the NTSC 7.5 IRE setup to the video output (just like the Toshiba on "enhanced" black level output setting). Many DVD players offer this "enhanced" (0 IRE) black level output setting nowadays because of the wider video dynamic range DVD's have, and the fact that all modern TV's can accomodate 0 IRE black level with no problem at all with a small adjustment to the set's brightness level. You wind up with a better picture when watching DVD's if you run your setup this way.

    Making a high quality DVD transfer from analog video sources, especially here in North America, is not that easy. Getting the image just right for viewing on any DVD player takes some practice because every NTSC video source varies so much. Yeah, they're supposed to be at 7.5 IRE black level, not exceed 100 IRE white level, and have proper color saturation and hue. The fact is, most of the time your analog source videos will be off (sometimes way off) this standard. This is why proc amps, enhancers, TBC's, etc. come in so handy and are a necessity for professional video conversion.

    It's really good to see the discussion focus on image quality, tools and tips on how to achieve the best overall results depending on your particular needs, and how the different machines out there compare in terms of features and functions. In the end, you have to feel comfortable with your equipment choices, so it is good to have as much information as possible.
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  11. Member jeffshead's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by duckboy
    however the inability to read and copy onto multi formats was a drawback.
    Precisely the main reason I purchased the Sony RDR-GX300. But you know what; you will probably do like I do and only use one format of DVD. I always use DVD-R. I stared out using DVD+R and switched over to ĖRs because they seem to be compatible with more players. The Toshiba and JVC both play the DVD+R discs I made even though it does not state that in any of the literature. Thatís not to say it will play all DVD+Rs. I donít know.

    As far as the Sony RDR-GX315, I would stay away from it. It is not what I would call a true Sony product and it is no whereís near the quality of the 300. Itís just like their DVD/VCR player combos which are just branded Sony.

    I have no experience with the Lite-On.

    Why donít you take some of your DVD+Rís into BestBuy, Circuit City, wherever, and try them in the display models? Most machines will play both formats even though they do not specify.

    And donít get me wrong from my previous post, the JVC is awesome and you may prefer the lighter images.
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  12. It is too late to respond to your poll, but I have to say the GX300 threw me. Having just done extensive tests on the GX315, I would have to agree that the GX300 must be not a predecessor but a different machine. The GX315 is set up like the M100 for IRE=0. All my initial tests assumed 7.5 and they all turned out light. The results are posted to this thread,

    https://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=279460

    I should mention though that Circuit City had the GX315 on sale for $199 with a $50 rebate recently.

    Never having owned a JVC, the comments made by Gshelley61 ( about the IRE level ) and Lordsmurf ( about the better gradations in color in the macroblocks ) helped identify the A, B, and E captures. I was puzzled by E because it seemed to be the JVC but the macroblocks ( which are in every capture ) seemed a little worse. I was going to guess it was encoded at a lower bitrate.

    I have to agree with Gshelley61 about the IRE however. Having transferred over 600 home movies, there will be some that are off enough to justify having external video processing equipment. That said I do use a borrowed combo to transfer because it is both fast and convenient when external processing is not needed.

    P.S. I was going to guess that in terms of filtering or loss in detail, A had the least, B and E a little more but about the same, D had more that B,E, and C had the most. Did you notice in your captures that the black band on the left side is not uniform in size? Filtering introduces time delay, so I suspected that was the cause of the shifts.
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    "If anything, the "70" line is apparently a stripped-down version of the DR-M100S (the 70 supposedly lacks FR mode, for example). Everything else inside the unit (filters, for example) is identical. There is really no variation in the JVC equipment, aside from the LSI generation and the PSUs. The 10, the 1000, the combos ... they all work the same, on the DVD recording side.

    I'm sure you observed things that drew you to the conclusion you have, between your 70 and 100, but it's factually false. You're going to need to look elsewhere for your reasonings, as the science and technology does not agree with your opinions. "

    Well there are at least 2 people on here who have drawn the same conclusions. The filaters arent the same. The 100 does not produce the same results as the 70. Oh and for your information its the DRM70S that I have, and its NTSC. I can provide a serial number if you dont believe. In Canada we have the same region codes as the states. I dont need science and technology to agree with my opinions, what I see on my screen is proof enough. The flicker in the image when playing a tape, the color distortion, the lack of noise reduction, all flaws the 100 showed that the 70 didnt while recording the exact same images. The science lies, the facts dont. As posted before, the flaws that that previous poster claimed is exactly what I experienced. And its as I said before, maybe the DRM100 that is made here differs from the model you guys have. That can be the only explaination.
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    Remember to use an S-Video cable when recording of the Bell 3100.
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    jeffshead,

    Your test has been pretty interesting, but I get mixed results. When comparing Toshiba and JVC, I come to different conclusions for each of the tests you did. For the DVD caps, the JVC cap looks more detailed, but for VHS source, the Toshiba actually looks more detailed. Interesting.

    I think the reason for this is simple: it's because you used each dvd recorder to play the test DVD, and NOT a stand-alone DVD player. The conclusion I thus come to is that the JVC appears to be a better DVD-decoder than the Toshiba, and that's about it. For VHS, they appear nearly the same, with Toshiba slightly ahead.

    For me, DVD-decoding does not really matter. Actually, passthrough does not matter much either, as I want my dvd recorder do all the encoding (not my ati aiw card), since they are soooo good at it (afterall, that's why I bought it).

    Good test though.
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  16. Member ejai's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by jeffshead
    So what does this mean? Well, I understand distortion. I am trying to match the output of the source as close as possible. Maybe the source is slightly over saturated or too dark, but time after time (on different players and TVs) the JVCís caps are always lighter than the source. If I had it to do all over again, I think I would just go with the Toshiba or maybe a Pioneer and none of the other equipment. But now that I own it and like what the proc amp and enhancer can do.
    I had posted the same findings in many previous treads, that the JVC is too light. It is not a good recorder if you are looking to maintain the true reproduction of the original. It's finally nice to see someone else has come to the same conclusion. I had to use a Sima SCC or AVT-8710 in order to get a nice contrast when using the JVC recorder.
    Do unto others....with a vengeance!
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  17. Interesting test.

    I said I liked the B cap best and I still do. I agree that the A cap is lighter, but I don't think it's that much lighter that the D cap. I mean I noticed it, but it's not like it was so bad that it would spoil my enjoyment of the movie. I liked the D cap too, but it didn't look as good as the A cap did to me. I guess this means that I'll take a little lightness in exchange for PQ. I guess it comes down to personal taste.

    Jeffshead

    I have the M30 and it has never taken 15 minutes to finalize a disc. I think the longest I ever waited was three or four minutes. The M30 also has two inputs/outputs on the back plus the inputs in the front. I believe the XS54 also has two inputs/outputs in the rear. Maybe multilple inputs/outputs is something only the HDD recorders have?
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  18. Originally Posted by ejai
    Originally Posted by jeffshead
    So what does this mean? Well, I understand distortion. I am trying to match the output of the source as close as possible. Maybe the source is slightly over saturated or too dark, but time after time (on different players and TVs) the JVC’s caps are always lighter than the source. If I had it to do all over again, I think I would just go with the Toshiba or maybe a Pioneer and none of the other equipment. But now that I own it and like what the proc amp and enhancer can do.
    I had posted the same findings in many previous treads, that the JVC is too light. It is not a good recorder if you are looking to maintain the true reproduction of the original. It's finally nice to see someone else has come to the same conclusion. I had to use a Sima SCC or AVT-8710 in order to get a nice contrast when using the JVC recorder.
    Yes, it is good to see other people seeing what is very obvious to me. The colors/sharpness/contrast/brightness are all excellent on my c-band satellite, but the JVC recordings do not look anything like the satellite itself. The picture is softer, color is duller and brightness/contrast is different. The Toshiba D-R4 on the other hand records almost exactly the image it receives, if there's a difference, I can't see it.
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    Does the JVC DR-M100S or DR-M10S digipure filters work on passthough, or just when recording.

    I Have a Toshiba D-R4 and really like it alot better than the JVC DRM70S for satelite Caps, however there are a few tapes ( a few dozen actually ) that could use a little extra filtering.
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    Lou are you saying that the JVC does a bit getter for VHS conversions? Thats the conclusiion ive come to.

    But im not sure about a digital feed to DVD quality. Or even a cable feed for that matter.
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  21. Originally Posted by Lou71

    I Have a Toshiba D-R4 and really like it alot better than the JVC DRM70S for satelite Caps, however there are a few tapes ( a few dozen actually ) that could use a little extra filtering.
    All I use the D-R4 for is satellite recording, it definitely blows the JVC away.
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  22. Member FulciLives's Avatar
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    Whatever happened to Pioneer ???

    I love my stand alone DVD recorder which is the Pioneer DVR-531H-s

    - John "FulciLives" Coleman
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  23. Member
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    Fluci Didnt you say it records very poorly after 2.5 hours?
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  24. Member FulciLives's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by MeekloBraca
    Fluci Didnt you say it records very poorly after 2.5 hours?
    Well nothing is perfect is it LOL

    One bad thing is that it doesn't switch to Half D1 resolution until 220 minutes. The 210 minute option (and everything with a running time less than that) will use Full D1 resolution.

    That is rather retarded as Half D1 should kick in by roughly 2 1/2 hours.

    However it doesn't really affect me because I've yet to record anything that was that long. Mostly I'm recording TV shows that max out at 2 hours. Sometimes I might record a movie that goes over 2 hours but how many movies go over 2 1/2 hours?

    The only thing I recorded that was longer than 2 1/2 hours was this past Acadamy Awards but I recorded that XP+ because I knew it would be much shorter after I cut out the commercials. Sure enough after cutting out the commercials it was under 2 1/2 hours and I then put it on a DVD disc using the OPTIMISE bitrate option.

    So in short it doesn't affect me but those that like to use the 3 hour mode get the shaft LOL

    That's really it's only "major" bad point other than the EPG which doesn't really work 100% but then again it is very easy to set up a recording the "manual" way and truth be told even if the EPG worked I probably would still do it the manual way ... just like I did on a VCR (I never once used any of that VCR + crap when setting up recordings).

    - John "FulciLives" Coleman
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    Lou are you saying that the JVC does a bit getter for VHS conversions? Thats the conclusiion ive come to.
    But im not sure about a digital feed to DVD quality. Or even a cable feed for that matter
    On clean sources, ( satelitte ) I certainly like the Toshiba's picture better.
    On VHS it depends on the tape, if the tape is in good shape I still prefer the toshiba because I find it has a noticably better TBC in it to make a much more stable picture.

    On noisy long running vhs sources, like your races, what I have been doing is
    1. Capture in 1hr blocks in XP recording mode,
    2. Burn to RW, then rip to computer
    3. Cut the commercials in Video redo
    4. Then run it though Tmpgenc or Procoder Express with Convolution 3D, ETC... Resize to 352 480
    5. Reauthor in TDA

    It works very, very well.
    I think noisy sources can really benefit from 2 pass encoding in a good software encoder as the noise can be rather random.
    I also prefer the look of a good resize like Lanczos or sometimes Bicubic rather than how the DVD recorders (that I've tested) resize. I think they look more like Bilinear ( Softer & a Little more blurry)

    As I said I really like this method for noisy sources, and I think it can produce a much better final product than just going straight to the DVD recorder in 3 or 4 hr mode. The only real drawback is it does take more time.

    I was just wondering if the JVC's filters work in passthrough mode as this could be helpfull on a couple dozen tapes I have that are really noisy.
    I did not test the passthough ability of the JVC when I had it.
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  26. Member
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    IM going to try your idea right now, ill post screenshots and captures between doing it your method, with 3 XP blocks compressed, as opposed to 1 recording in 4 hour mode. Ive always though about doing that but never really got to it but ill get with it now.
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  27. Member
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    Lou how can you run a finalized DVD through TMG? Ive tried and it wont reconize the files
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  28. Member
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    Hello fellow Canadian,
    You should have no problem recording from the Bell 3100 just remember to use the s-video connection as this will be your highest resolution transfer.
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  29. Member
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    Lets play a game.



    cap003.bmp
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  30. Member
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    Edmonton
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    Can you guess which is which?

    cap004.bmp
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