So, trhouse, are you saying that the real benefits of going 1/2 D1 are lost because the bitrates are dropped too drastically (at least in the case of your example)?
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This is a correction to the comments below. The Pioneer correctly changes to 2.53 Mbs at LP mode because that rate would fill a standard 4.7 GB disk.
(2.53Mbs * 3,600 sec/hour * 4 hours)/8 bits/byte = 4.554 GB.
The ratio of bitrate to pixels is nearly same for SP and LP mode as follows,
5.06 Mbs/(720 * 480)pixels = 14.64 bits/pixel
2.53 Mbs/(352 * 480) pixels = 14.94 bits/pixel
Sorry for any confusion. The reason I have a Sony GX315 and Pioneer 531H at the moment is to do tests of dual/double layer media which being nearly twice the capacity of a standard dvd could handle 1/2 D1 at 5.07 Mbs.
Regrettably, yes. In the example I gave, I have no choice in the matter. I can only select the record time and the recorder picks the bitrate allocation. Unfortunately, it picks 2.53 Mbs when it could, as lordsmurf pointed out, have picked 5.06 Mbs for LP mode.
This is not an easy matter to determine what the recorder is doing without either getting your hands on one or being able to analyze a capture from it. It is not always safe to assume that manufacturers are doing what you think they should.
P.S. Regarding dvd+rw, I have a borrowed Sony GX315. It does not require finalizing dvd+rw in video mode ( actually is says it happens automatically ) but in dvd+rw (VR mode ) it says it is unnecessary if playing back in VR mode compatible equipment but you can still do it.
I also have a Pioneer DVR-531H-s and I am very happy with it but I do think Pioneer made a "fatal flaw" by keeping Full D1 resolution for such a long period. My understanding is that most other brands switch from Full D1 to Half D1 somewhere around the 2 1/2 hour mark which makes a lot more sense than Pioneer that keeps Full D1 for much too long. I should point out that this is in the Pioneer manual (there is a chart that indicates what resolution is used for what "bitrate" or "minutes" setting selected).
I almost never go less than SP except on the occassional extra long movie on TCM so it doesn't really affect me much but it would be nice if I could use a 3 hour mode for certain types of recordings but the 3 hour mode on the Pioneer looks like shit due to it keeping Full D1 resolution.
I would be nice in the future if Pioneer and other maker's of stand alone DVD recorders would give the user the option of using Full D1 or Half D1.
For instance ... let us say you have a 90 minute program but it is an old SLP VHS recording that is very "ugly" and "noisy". I would suggest that recording that at the 90 minute mode (so it just fits on a single layer DVD) but at Half D1 instead of Full D1 would be "optimal" but of course you can't select Half D1 at 90 minute mode. That's just one example of why the user should be able to select not only the given bitrate but also the resolution.
- John "FulciLives" Coleman
The manual on page 105 does give a nice chart of record time vs resolution. It is one of the reasons I consider Pioneer's operating manuals one of the best. This kind of information is missing from the manuals of nearly every other brand.
To find the bitrate it allocates for a given time, the only way is to go to "setup" for manual record on the recorder itself. That is where a menu appears allowing the selection of record time with a display of the bitrate allocation that the 531H chooses for the selected time.
Here is what LG says about their new model 519,
It took a call to customer support to just to find out that Good is about 160 hours on the 160 GB hdd, Better is 100 hours, and Best is 70 hours.
JVC DRM 100 and DRM70
the budget priced LITEON 5005x and 5115GHC"
Ive tried most of these and my comments are as followed. I took the Lite-On 5005 back. why? There were massive jitter issues in the image while recording. Apparantly it is an overheating issue, but when the VCR was plugged into the recorder the jitter was incredible. And personally im not willing to start chopping up the case to fix that.
The JVC DRm100 is nothing like these guys hype it up to be. Maybe its because im in Canada and they may have a different model than me, but compared to the DRM70, I took the DRm100 back the very next day. Its slow to react to remote commands, its a tick louder than the 70, and most importantly it didnt have anywhere close to the picture recording quality.
The Panasonic ES20 had macrovision issues when I tried to record my tv recorded tapes to DVD. I dont know why. The JVC didnt have it.
Ive never tried the LG or the Toshiba.
The JVC DRM70 advertises a TBC filter and it shows, I love this machine. The ONLY flaw I find in it is a lack of 3 hour mode, but recording in 4 hour mode is hardly a slouch. The quality in 4 hour is excellent. I wish they made a DRM70.5 with the 3 hour mode, id pick it up in a heartbeat.
Whatever the hell you do, but all your stuff from either Futureshop or Best Buy. That way you can take it back to your hearts content.
Originally Posted by MeekloBraca
Macrovision detection is based on intention drifting of sync and level, old/weak VHS tape can cause that to happened too. That's the reason many non-macrovision tape trigger the "protect material" snafu. The Panasonic has set the spec too tight.
Return Policy is mostly THE reason that I bough stuff from store on sales, than bought from the web at a lower price anytime ( unless it is a repeat ). Spec/pixel count/claim is no match for truth.
Try the Toshiba - I think you'll be surprised. Run out to Best Buy, though the D-R5 is out now, they still had the D-R4 instock as of last week for a good price.
The D-R4 can't be beat. Before you listen to one or two people here and make the mistake of buying a JVC like I did, brouse some other sites on the web for info on the JVC recorder, almost anywhere but here it's considerd garbage.
Originally Posted by anitract
I liked the D-R4 so much (even though I just bought it) that I am taking it back. You heard me. I am shelling out a few more bucks for the Toshiba RD-XS34, instead. If I couldn't afford this, I would keep the D-R4 though. I just wanted the HD option.
On XP vs. SP - I am literally in the middle of this, but from what I found so far, SP is not quite as detailed. Mind you, this is just eye-balling things. It might just be psychological. heh I planned on comparing via my PC so I could go more in depth. I guess I'll pick it up with the new unit when I get it. The results should be the same since the XS34 is essentially the same machine, but with a HD & digi vid input.
Maybe you have to, if you own a minDV camcorder.
Only the $499 RD-XS34 and up, in toshiba lineup has firewire input.
I got my RD-XS34 from Amazon for $355 shipped so they're not too bad. You can get refurbs right now on ebay for $300 shipped. And yeah, the DV will be nice to have for camcorders.
I could not find a comparison on the JVC DR-M100S vs. the Toshiba RD-XS34.
Have you owned a JVC? If so, what do you think about pq between the two? I would just buy the Toshiba and test it, but I can't find one in stock anywhere.
The RD-XS34 is basically the D-R4 with firewire input, a hard drive, and more advanced configuration options. So search on the D-R4 and you'll find plenty of comparisons. Actually, just go to my second post in this thread (see pg 1) & follow the link & do the comparison I describe there.
Based on what I've seen & tested first hand, Toshiba has a picture that is closer to what I personally like...sharper, more detail. Besides this, I chose Toshiba over JVC because I have a JVC prosumer VCR that all ready has many filters included on the recorder...I really don't need 2 sets of filters. So with my setup, I feel like I get the best of both worlds.
I've never owned a JVC DVD recorder, but a lot of people swear by them. Then again, a lot of people also swear at them. I'll let either side convince you.
Oh, and I ordered my Toshiba RD-XS34 from Amazon just the other day, so try there. They were also the cheapest.
Thanks for your reply.
I did examine the thread you pointed me to but I donít know if there are any differences in image quality or filters between the DR-4 and RD-XS34.
After scrutinizing the caps, I have to say I am leaning towards the JVC as far as the one that keeps the most detail yet removes the most artifacts. Not just oneís opinion, but any one should be able to see what I am describing if they zoom in on those caps; unless Iím missing something. My conclusion is based exclusively on those still caps. Yet when I compare motion caps I have done on the JVC versus other machines, I feel the JVC softens the image too much. VERY CONFUSING TO ME! I guess there is no way to tell which machine is more pleasing to an individualís eye unless that person can view the motion picture for himself.
There is no local store that carries the RD-XS34 or RD-XS54. I donít want to order the unit and have to pay for shipping and return shipping if I donít like it. Ho hum, whatís a person to do?
UPDATE: Just found out that the RD-XS54 is discontinued. It's being replaced by a RD-XS34 with a 250GB hard drive. I think the nomenclature is RD-XS35. I know "35" is definetly in the model #. I was really leaning towards the RD-XS54 because it has multiple s-video in and outs on the back side.
Thanks again anitract!
I guess everyone likes something different, which is all right. For me, the Toshiba comes out on top zoomed or un-zoomed, no contest. When push comes to shove though, either brand is good.
Amazon has been pretty good about paying return shipping for me in the past. And the original shipping's not bad when you consider that you are not paying sales tax.
I've owned a JVC and the Toshiba, to me there's no comparison, the Toshiba wins hands down. The JVC gets far too hot, the picture is too soft, the colors and contrast are dulled. That's not even getting into the reliability issues. The Toshiba for me records exactly what it sees, no loss of sharpness, colors are excellent, no loss of contrast/brightness.
There was little if anything that I liked about the JVC M100 DVD Recorder.
Poor TBC performance.
SLOW user interface response.
False macrovision detection.
Not to mention its price.
IMO, the Toshiba performs better in every way that I consider important, including picture quality.
I also like how easy and quick my Toshiba RD-KX50 lets me do basic capturing/editing/authoring when I don't feel like sitting at my computer.
I'm going to BestBuy and purchase the Toshiba D-R4 tonight. I will play around with it and post some comparisons in a day or two.
Some of these anti-JVC comments do not make any sense.
-- TBC? No DVD recorder has a true TBC. They have various filters that react differently.
-- Slow interface? I have no idea what you experienced, but I find the Panasonic ES10 slow as hell compared to either JVC deck. The JVC remote and setup menus are laid out really nice, they react no different than any other DVD recorder or VCR. The only place JVC lags is maybe with the virtual keyboard when you type in titles.
-- False MV? What device these days doesn't upchuck on a video error and think it's false MV? I've not seen one to date. They either barf, or they ignore MV altogether. People can bitch all day about this, but blame the MPAA, buy a TBC, and move on with your life.
-- Price? Fry's has these for $169 plus tax. All over the Internet for $199 or less.
-- Too hot? That's not a problems associated with JVC machines. They run rather cool, actually. All DVD recorders need "open space" not to be crammed into some little wooden shelf.
-- Picture is too soft? The image is really no more soft than the source was. On the other hand, JVC does not artificially sharpen, and it removes noise that can give a perception of details.
-- Colors and contrast dull? Not really. It maintains color and contrast and IRE pretty close to the source. It does not darken or otherwise improperly augment like some machines do (Panasonic is really bad about this).
-- Reliability problems? Not for a long time now, stop living in the past. The "loading" errors only infected the first-generation machines from 2004, current second- and third-generation machines are totally free of that issue.
The Toshiba is not a bad machine, but you guys make it sound like the JVC is bad. That's bunk. JVC and Pioneer are 2 of the 3 best machines, and either LiteOn or Toshiba gets the other spot.
At least people are now discussing (and arguing about) the best machines. It seems the head-up-ass days of "Panasonic is best" and "Philips is best" crap is over. To me, this is far more important. Whether you buy a JVC, a Toshiba, or a Pioneer, you're in for a rather pleasant experience.
If I may add my 2 cents worth..
anitract, after doing some research of my own, ( spent most of the day
today reading (and updating my database, yada yada) w/ lots of interesting
things on: DVD Recorders; VCR's; and TBC's etc) ..and in my research, I
have found that gshelley61 (our resident DVD Recorder-tester, among other
things of interests.. ) IMHO and FWICT, *still* considers one of his units
in his arson favorable, the JVC DMR-M10 is still holding its ground, per
his comment below.
TOPIC: Pioneer DVR-531H-S tests
REGARDING TEST SCENARIO: JVC DR-M10 via the DV input, SP mode
It appears to me that the JVC still does a better job with DV to DVD conversion
than the Sony. The Sony SP encodes have artifacts around some of the edges. The JVC
encode looks closer to the original, with very few artifacts. However, the Sony HQ+
to SP "two-pass" encodes look real good. I'll have to do some high motion sequence
testing using that method to see how they turn out.
TOPIC: Toshiba DR5...At First Glance
Where it would seem his final choice lead him to the Toshiba RDR-XS54 model.
(hopefully, he's found his maker, else he'll keep you informed otherwise)
In another TOPIC I did research on, ejai has (so far) is resting now,
in his final choice, the XS54 model. He's done a battery of tests and gone
through lots of usage with various brand and model units.
I've decided to take the Toshiba back and get the RD-XS54 model. This one has the
250 GB HD. I'm sorry but I need more control.
You have to do some reading of the whole topic to understand each of the decisions
or special commentaries made.
Good luck anyways,
The JVC softens the picture and dulls the colors, period. Maybe your source or TV just isn't good enough to see the difference, but it's definitely there. I look at the JVC recordings and the Toshiba recordings and it's like night and day, no comparison. I threw out a few hundred discs I did on the JVC, unwatchable trash, lines running up and down the screen on all of them. The order would be Toshiba first, and whatever else second and third.
Originally Posted by lordsmurf
I do not know what you consider a "true" TBC to be, but there is no question that the Toshiba improves the timebase stability of its inputs while the others do little or nothing or even make matters worse. It may be that most DVD Recorders do not perform any timebase correction; if so, then the Toshiba is one exception.
As for the False MV, the JVC refused to record a tape that the Panasonic and Toshiba had no problem with. So maybe the JVC is more sensitive than the others, or perhaps with a different tape the situation would be reversed. Either way, I am most interested in what happens with MY tapes. The JVC did not work well for me.
The price I paid at Fryís was $239. I didnít realize it had come down so much.
As for all of the picture quality issues, I think its too subjective. The DVD Recorder is not the only thing that determines picture quality, and the interactions between components can create infinite possibilities. Everyone has their own preferences...
Yeah, I won't disagree with you that the filters and MV detection gave you a better experience. But my point was that you cannot expect others to reproduce that with any sort of success on a consistant basis. I get a LOT of complaints about Toshiba and false MV, as well as other errors from signal issues. But it always comes down to getting a TBC.
I agree, picture quality is subjective. But it's also highly influenced by false perceptions (either generated from opposing forces, or from human visual limiatitons and perceptual tricks). So between those two things, you can hear a lot conflicting info. The key is to try and understand why you see what you think you see. There's also a polar difference of opinion between noise/detail and clean/soft crowds.
Like I said, at least now we're going over the best machines these days, not bottom-of-the-barrel junk. And that's the most important thing from my viewpoint.
Originally Posted by vhelp
B looks best to me in that it has the most detail BUT not too much noise.
I really have a hard time trying to pick the one that looks the worst to me.
I can tell A is the JVC or so I think.
C and D look very similiar to me ... so much so I can't really say which is which.
E looks good ... I'd rate it 2nd to the B picture.
So for me it is in this order:
4.) C + D = TIE
E looks good but is overly saturated colorwise
A looks good but is too bright
C + D are a bit too blury
B really looks best to my eyes detail wise and colorwise.
- John "FulciLives" Coleman
*** EDIT ***
OK I made some changes here but I'm done editing this post I swear LOL
"Poor TBC performance.
SLOW user interface response.
False macrovision detection.
Not to mention its price. "
This is in regards to the JVC DRM100S
I agree 100% with all of this. In fact If I could agree more I would.
I tried the Toshiba DR4 vs my JVC DRM70S which apparantly is only available in Canada. The JVC wins. Ive tried many tests and running them simutaniously on my tv, the results are undeniable.
I posted screen caps in another thread to show why. Nothing I could do, would make the Toshiba produce a better image than the JVC. The only advantage the Toshiba had was its 3 hour mode. But then I think my JVC 4 hour mode does a better job with the exception of a tiny bit of blocking, or whatever you guys call it, around the cars in the picture. The picture on the JVC in 4 hmode seemed sharper than the Toshiba in 3 hour mode.
Whatever filters or TBC or you call can call it whatever you like, they work better in the JVC than anything else ive tried, including the DRM100s.
Ok, I've taken the headstaggers and just bought a Pioneer 433 DVR/HDR. It appears to have 32 video recording modes as well as letting you set the blacks/whites/sharpness levels and Y/C noise reduction levels. I plan on testing all of thse modes over the next few days and I'll post here any relevant comments.