Checker Board Pattern from VHS to DVD Capture

[jeffshead]

FulciLives and lordsmurf,

Thanks for the input. I now see some of the artifacts and loss of detail. It is very slight and I did not notice it before. I can't really see it on the TV.

As far as the issue of the JVC being lighter/brighter should a proc amp be used to adjust the black level to darken the source output signal before capture? Like I said before, the JVC image is a lot lighter than the source when comparing them both on the same TV. Or is it a matter of the JVC DVD recorder being correct and the VCR is outputting the source too light? But that does not make any sense because when the source is viewed directly on the TV, it is almost as dark as the Sony cap. So doesn’t that mean the JVC DVD recorder caps are too light? Damn it all!!! I’m confusing myself.

Back to the checker boarding.

anitract,

I contacted the manufacturer and he looked at this post and said it looks like the signal was bad or got corrupted; if only for a split second and the TBC did not know how to continue the conversion from analogue to digital. I also brought up the fact that when I access the menu on the HRS-7600U, the whole image is always checkerborded. But not when I bypass the TBC. He said the VCR makes its own signal (which may be poor) for the menu and the TBC may not know exactly what to do with it. He also said the menu signal and the signal pulled from a tape is different and if I accessed the menu during playback, the TBC could have gotten confused. I don’t remember if I accessed the menu or not. He said any time the signal changes, the TBC should be power cycled. I don’t know. What do you think?

Here is a pick of the menu

[anitract]

Great job contacting them. Just to confirm, with the TBC-1000 I get the exact same JVC menu checkerboard pattern. I will test it without the TBC-1000 tonight.

Anywho, I think the rep's explanation SOUNDS good/reasonable....although...we do think of TBCs as being able to deal with all kinds of signals, so the part about the menu confusing the TBC seems a little odd. Why would it do this?

[jeffshead]

For RFI, other than trying different cables, all I can think to do is isolating which component in your hardware chain might be causing the noise.

I guess once you find something that does not seem quite right, you find other issues as with EMI/RFI that I mentioned earlier in this post.

I have come to the conclusion the VCR is causing the issue. I use S-Video on everything except for coax from the sat receiver to the VCR, then from the VCR to the TV. I do this just as a pass through so the sat can be viewed on the TV without having to turn on the VCR or DVD recorders, but I get faint, rolling horizontal lines. I have disassembled all connections, relocated all components, and tested every possible configuration with new cables. Any combo of S-Video, coax, and composite does not produce the lines unless I use coax to or from the VCR. I can use the same coax cables from the sat receiver directly to the TV or pass through any component (except for the VCR) and not get any interference. I guess the JVC’s built-in tuner is picking up interference or creating it.

However, this does not affect the captures, just annoying when watching TV.

[vhelp]

I have disassembled all connections, relocated all components, and tested every
possible configuration with new cables. Any combo of S-Video, coax, and composite does
not produce the lines unless I use coax to or from the VCR.

.

rolling horizontal lines

.

I can use the same coax cables from the sat receiver directly to the TV or pass
through any component (except for the VCR) and not get any interference.

I suffer the same setup experience as you do in this way. BUT, my source is
Cable tv. The source expectation is Analog.. because that is what I want, on account
of anything "digital" is heavily pixelated. Anyways.

Thus, when I connect my cable wire directly to my tv set's Coax (as you do) the
picture is crystal clean. But, here is where my setup is sligthly different than
yous..

..whenever I proceed to setup a "capture", using any capture device, even DV devices,
on my pc, I get these wierd line noise (probably the same as yours) and is probably
on account of some feedback from the source, wich is the Cable running from my apt.

The exlanation from the Cable Company was..

..after they came to my house, and fiddled around some more, they went out side,
where the cable junction box is located (way on the other end of the complex buld.
And, they discovered that my (their) radio frequency filter had curroded to
green-looking. It was pretty greeny to me, when demonstrated before my eyes.
Anyway, a new RFF was fitted, and we (I) went back to proceed how the tv sporce
looked, and the cable person and I saw some (minor) improvement.

BUT, this did not fix my issue with the noise intruction/interference whenever I
would proceed to connnect any capture device (in this case, DV) to my computer
and capture some cable. The bars or whatever line interference was still there.

My only guess is that this is a "RFF" phenomina, and can't be beat with my given
PC setup, and there (shall I say) amount of "RFF" interfence or feedback comming
from their cable wire, and my system accepting it and doing whatever it can with
it.

Oops.. forgot to mention..

The only way to "beat" this problem, was to record it to my DV cam and the noise
or whatever its called, was completely gone. I fail to come up with
any kind of reason as to why no noise when I record to DV cam, (tape)
.
But, when I connect as the following:

Cable -> [Coax IN]VCR[OUT: s-video] -> dvcam/advc100[IN: s-video] -> fw -> PC

I get those line noises or interferences


Now, all this talk of *my* (similar) experience as yours..

I think that the checker box in your source was with to do with your TBC unit.
I too suffer from this, (still, and to some degree - depding on some factors) but
I think the blaim could be on account of the device having a loose connector,
the 5volt tongue or whatever name for it, that connects with the power trans and
the TBC unit (mine is the TBC-100 and is a pci type card) and the tongue came
loose when I first received it and "blindly" tried to connect the pieces together
(but put too much pressure on it while doing so) and it came disslarged from the
TBC's chases.

Anyway, I'm confused now, because I'm not sure weather or not you are still
suffering from this, or you have overcame this, with a "reset" or something
you mentioned above, earlier

-vhelp 3824

[jagabo]

http://www.elect-spec.com/faqgrdl.htm

[jeffshead]

vhelp

As far as the “hum” I only get it from using coax in and/or out of the VCR. I just use the coax as a pass through so I can watch TV without having to turn on the VRC or DVD recorder. I can use coax on any other piece of equipment and not get any interference. However, I use s-video from all sources to capture. I would suggest you ask the cable company for a cable box. They almost always have composite and/or s-video outs which will probably eliminate the “hum” unless your computer is causing it or your main ground is not very good. When I had analog cable, I had the option of using a box or not. Your cable company may require you to go to a digital signal if you want to use their box. When you use your DV cam to capture, you are bypassing your computer. Have you tried: Cable coax-->DVD recorder coax-->TV. You have to use the process of elimination to isolate the cause. It will take some time and you may want to try different cables and even a UPS.

Here is my current setup



As far as the checker board pattern, it is definitely the TBC causing it. I did some tests after power cycling the unit and it worked fine. I may have accessed the menu on the VCR before I started the capture. I can’t remember. I currently have everything torn apart because I am in the process of making room for another DVD recorder, proc amp, and detailer. Once I finish making shelves and reassemble everything; I will do some more tests.

jagabo

Thanks for the link. Pretty neat stuff but expensive. Have you tried one? I don’t think I will go that route because the “hum” is not present in any of my captures. Just if I watch TV using coax in and out of the VCR.

[jagabo]

jagabo

Thanks for the link. Pretty neat stuff but expensive. Have you tried one? I don’t think I will go that route because the “hum” is not present in any of my captures. Just if I watch TV using coax in and out of the VCR.

I haven't tried any of their isolation products or anyone else's. I posted the link just because I thought it was informative -- especially for vhelp.

[lordsmurf]

should a proc amp be used to adjust the black level to darken the source output signal before capture?

If you feel it needs it, do it.

Like I said before, the JVC image is a lot lighter than the source when comparing them both on the same TV.

Don't assume the source is correct. Most sources are about as screwed up as it gets. VHS tends to lose contrast, broadcast doesn't always follow the rules.

Or is it a matter of the JVC DVD recorder being correct and the VCR is outputting the source too light? But that does not make any sense because when the source is viewed directly on the TV, it is almost as dark as the Sony cap.

It's actually quite possible, even if you can't wrap your head around the why. Just do like me, forget "why" and move on with how to correct for it.

Ain't video fun?

[geowharton]

I had a pattern like this once. I had both the composit and S-video cables plugged in. If I just use one or the other of them then there is no problem. There was some difference between the timing of the two and the resulting pattern was this interference pattern.

[jeffshead]

lordsmurf

Ok, I put a proc amp in the chain and adjusted to 7.5 black. The middle cap is the new one. It more closely resembles the VHS source as far as black level.


Here is the original HR-S7600U -->AVT-8710-->DR-M100




Here is a new cap HR-S7600U -->AVT-8710-->SignVideo Proc Amp PA-100-->DR-M100




Here is the original HR-S7600U -->AVT-8710-->Sony DVD recorder



I ‘m still having a hard time with the softer image. I guess it is personal taste. You either like the sharper grainy look or you like the softer cleaner look. I am going to try a detailer next and see how that does. Maybe I am asking too much, but I was hoping to transfer all my VHS and at least keep the same image quality and slightly improve the image quality of some.


I have not encountered the checker board issue anymore but I have only tested a couple of times.

[lordsmurf]

What does you image look like, contrast wise, without the AVT-8710?

[jeffshead]

What does you image look like, contrast wise, without the AVT-8710?

I'll try it and post.

Using the JVC is much more time consuming than using the Sony recorder. I have to finalize the DVD from the JVC before any of my burners or stand alones can read it. Is this normal? With my Sony stand alone, I just capture, eject the disc, and my burners and players read it just fine without having to finalize. It really saves time and it does not matter if it was formatted in VR or Video mode.

Will any burner read a disc from the JVC without finalizing?

[jeffshead]

What does you image look like, contrast wise, without the AVT-8710?

Here is a new cap HR-S7600U-->SignVideo Proc Amp-->DR-M100




The VCR settings are the same for all caps:

TBC/NR: ON

Video Calibration: OFF
Picture Control: EDIT
Digital R3: OFF
Video Stabilizer: OFF

[FulciLives]

The JVC recording with the AVT-8710 is definately without a doubt "brighter" than the JVC recording without the AVT-8710

The AVT-8710 is definately changing the signal in some way in terms of brightness/contrast.

I am assuming when you used the AVT-8710 you had all of the picture adjustments in their "off" or "neutral" positions.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[jeffshead]

The JVC recording with the AVT-8710 is definately without a doubt "brighter" than the JVC recording without the AVT-8710

The AVT-8710 is definately changing the signal in some way in terms of brightness/contrast.

I am assuming when you used the AVT-8710 you had all of the picture adjustments in their "off" or "neutral" positions.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

Yes. All AVT-8710 settings "reset" to off.

Keep in mind the last cap also has a proc amp in the chain to adjust the black level to 7.5.

The AVT-8710 does appear to be causing a loss in contrast. Maybe a detailer will help?

[FulciLives]

The JVC recording with the AVT-8710 is definately without a doubt "brighter" than the JVC recording without the AVT-8710

The AVT-8710 is definately changing the signal in some way in terms of brightness/contrast.

I am assuming when you used the AVT-8710 you had all of the picture adjustments in their "off" or "neutral" positions.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

Yes. All AVT-8710 settings "reset" to off.

Keep in mind the last cap also has a proc amp in the chain to adjust the black level to 7.5.

The AVT-8710 does appear to be causing a loss in contrast. Maybe a detailer will help?

Oh ???

I thought that the last picture posted (jvc9.jpg) was without the AVT-8710 and without the proc amp adjustment.

But if I am reading you correct then that pic is without the AVT-8710 but with the proc amp adjustment.

That makes no sense !!!

The whole point of LordSmurf's question about the AVT-8710 was to see if it was introducing any varience in the image in terms of contrast/brightness.

I guess if the proc amp adjustment was EXACTLY the same as the earlier image (which had the AVT-8710) used then we can compare that but you have to be VERY carefull what we ask and how you label your images.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[jeffshead]

FulciLives,
In my previous post I clearly stated I added a proc amp to the chain.

What does you image look like, contrast wise, without the AVT-8710?

Sorry, I did not ascertain he meant for me to remove the proc amp as well.

Here is a cap HR-S7600U-->DR-M100

[FulciLives]

OK well now that we have two pictures to compare ... one with the AVT-8710 and no proc amp VS one without the AVT-8710 and no proc amp ...

The image with the AVT-8710 is ever-so-slightly "brighter" however it is somewhat subtle.

I'm curious what LordSmurf makes of it.

I'm comparing jvc7.jpg with jvc10.jpg

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[anitract]

I removed my TBC-1000 from my hardware chain this weekend and noticed no checkerboarding on the material that did it slightly.

Based on this and other TBC issues posted on here I am coming to the conclusion that keeping the TBC out of the chain unless I truly need it is a better strategy than always using it since it does alter the image quality a bit.

[lordsmurf]

The AVT-8710 is not my favorite TBC, it does alter image quality a little bit sometimes. I've seen it on a couple tapes since I bought it, but not too often. YMMV on this one.

[jeffshead]

Well, this sucks. I guess its all trial and error. I was hoping I could just leave the TBC in the chain all the time. I wonder if the professional ones on eBay alter the image as well.

Here is another cap HR-S7600U-->AVT-8710 (increased contrast setting 2 clicks from default)-->proc amp-->DR-M100

[anitract]

Check out this thread where we are discussing just that issue (leaving in external TBC all the time, or not).

I thought your checkerboard problem was solved though. Didn't cycling the unit off fix it?

Also, why are you changing the contrast on the TBC when you have a SignVideo proc amp, which has superior adjustment capabilities?

[jeffshead]

Check out this thread where we are discussing just that issue (leaving in external TBC all the time, or not).

I thought your checkerboard problem was solved though. Didn't cycling the unit off fix it?

So far so good.