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  1. Member
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    Wow, ROF is amazing. Actually, I didn't do what I just said I did, I made it all up. You caught me. Apparently, I am and have been disobeying the laws of physics (or maybe just ROF) for the last several motherboard swaps I've done, even making up Intel chips in the process. And your schmarmy comment about drivers is SO helpful, I never realized that Windows uses such things, maybe you could explain more (NOT!)

    Actually, I'm NOT just making this up, and I DID just "swap out the motherboard and have Windows boot up". The difference between us is that I have actually DONE this and you just sit there claiming it can't be done. Its amazing (and God I'm glad I never paid you to work on my computers) that you say it can't be done. You clearly (CLEARLY) have never tried.

    "You can't simply swap out a motherboard and have your hard drive boot up.
    I really wish that was possible because it would make diagnosing OS issues so much easier if all I had to do was tell a client to bring their hard drive to the shop instead of the entire tower. "

    Maybe you just need to tell your clients to go to someone that has a clue. I just cannot believe that anyone with any experience would write what you just wrote. Clearly you "simply" can do it because I just DID it (not just once, but many times). After WinXP fires up, you do have to reinstall new drivers and such, but it DOES work. Instead of telling people it can't be done because YOU haven't done it, maybe you should either try it or just stop with the BS. This isn't a thread about diagnosing OS problems, it's about whether you can successfully swap a motherboard without re-installing WinXP, which clearly can be done (even if you are not capable of doing it).

    "Sorry, it's a generally accepted fact that windows stores information about your hardware "

    OF COURSE WINDOWS STORES INFORMATION ABOUT MY HARDWARE - nothing that I wrote suggests otherwise. But Windows also has an amazing ability to discover and activate new hardware, or didn't you know that! I am not saying it works all the time, but it has worked 100% of the time for me (and others in this thread as well). You ROF are making a blanket statement that it CANNOT and NEVER WILL work. You are just flat out WRONG and you are full of it. I guess my fully functioning, motherboard swapped WinXP OEM computers aren't proof enough for you, but I hope they are for others that don't buy into your BS.
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  2. Member thevoelk's Avatar
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    Generally, if you switch out mainboards using the same class of processor/chipset, you'll be bale to just boot it. Going from an Athlon XP to a Pentium 4, you're going to have some work ahead of you. If you go from an Atholon XP 1700 to an Athlon XP 28/Sempron 2800 for example, you shouldn't have to do anything, except update the mainboard specific drivers.

    Also, FWIW, if you are switching mainboards, you can try to use sysprep. I've never had it ask for activation on friends PCs when replacing boards for them. My 2 cents.
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  3. Knew It All Doramius's Avatar
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    tphaggerty, I'm sorry, but ROF is correct for most pieces of equipment I've ever worked with.

    However, I found that Emachines OEM software works on other Emachines PCs regardless of the motherboard.

    OEM (Original Equpment Manufacturer)
    Basically means you'll probably only be able to use it with hardware specifically supplied by a certain manufacturer. IE: Dell, Gateway, Emachines, etc.

    Sometimes the Hardware specific devices the software relates to is more general than other manufacturers. I've used OEM Compaq software on HP machines. They are linked companies.

    If you have a general OEM software it may be the style of MoBo you've been installing. (IE: all similar intel chipsets or same brand name)

    I personally like to use NON-OEM software because I may get a different Mobo, video card, HDD on 3 or 4 different PCs. I'll swap back & forth too. With OEM software, I had numerous problems.

    I'm not saying what you did didn't work. I'm just saying you probably didn't know that your software supported the devices you put in.
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    Originally Posted by thevoelk
    Going from an Athlon XP to a Pentium 4, you're going to have some work ahead of you.
    Perhaps, but as I said above, this isn't something I have thought about doing, it is something I just did! It was an AthlonXP to Celeron switch (just so there is no question, it was a 2.93G processor not 2.94 as I said above. The first MB was an ABIT, the successor was an MSI, both had Via chipsets. The other one I did recently was a Gigabit to IWill MB switch, the first was a VIA chipset, the second was an ALi board (the same AnthlonXP 1900+ processor was used in both). Both swaps were WinXP OEM. So, no theory, no speculation, just the facts. This often works, so for many it is worth trying.

    I am willing to bet that ROF has never even tried it, that is why I jumped. I can prove it works, at least in some cases, whereas he is saying it will NEVER work. To me, that is misleading and uninformed. If you search the Web, almost every site that has advice on the matter suggests trying a "simple" swap & boot first, if it works, you're set (make sure you backup or clone your HD first!!!!). If it doesn't work, then there are other things to try. To be honest, I was surprised when the last swap worked as easily as it did, but it DID, so I get a little miffed when some "expert" spouts the party line without really giving it a go, then jumps all over me with smart *ss remarks about drivers and hardware .

    As for Doramius, you are right, when you get an OEM version from Dell or another OEM computer maker, yes, it might be specific to that machine. An OEM version from Newegg is obviously NOT specific to any machine. And, as I have documented above, I have swapped between MBs with different chipsets and different CPU makers. I've been building machines for about 16 years now, so I'm pretty certain I know whether a system is working or not. Again, ROF is saying it will NEVER work, I am just saying that it DOES work in SOME cases, that is all. It doesn't appear that you are disputing that. Have you actually tried this? On what specific MB/chipset/CPU combinations did it fail?

    Apparently, if I took my machine to ROF and it needed a new MB, he would hit me for another 200 for a retail copy of WinXp, plus I would get stuck with reinstalling everything on my old machine. Sorry, but that doesn't work for most of the true enthusiasts out there who know what they are doing.
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  5. These issues are exactly why I will never buy or endorse any product with product activation. As far as I'm concerned, if you buy a software product, you should be able to use it on as many replacement machines as you want. I think it is perfectly reasonable to say that it can only be installed on one machine at a time (per license), but to say that you have to buy another $100+ piece of software every time you switch out computers is insane.

    I sell computers for a living, and come across high-end equipment on a regular basis. As a result, I can usually sell my PC and upgrade it for little to no cost. On average, I change machines every six months. If I had to buy a new copy of Windows each time...

    Yes, I know that the retail version of XP will let you transfer it to a new box (unlike the OEM). But what happens two years from now when Microsoft decides to stop supporting XP in favor of Vista? If they decide to stop re-activating prior copies of Windows in order to force you to upgrade, now your $300+ retail copy of Windows is worthless.

    I use Windows 2000, and will continue to do so until I can no longer buy programs that will run on it. I am currently attempting to switch all of my machines to Linux for this reason alone...
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  6. Knew It All Doramius's Avatar
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    My fails were Gateway Jabil Mobo to the Emachines. Didn't work. Emachines swap between each other beautifully though.
    Emachine intel chipset will work with some the Dell intel chipset Mobos. Not exactly sure why, but occasionally it does.

    Newegg OEM also generalises itself to major manufacturers. I have found that to be true. Not exactly sure why about that either. You get a Newegg OEM OS and you can swap ABIT, MSI, MachSpeed, Asus, Soyo, etc. without problem. get into the less known mobo names and you're running on thin ice. So I see where you are coming from. It looks like a general OEM that carries amongst several major brands.

    There are also workarounds for most, if not all OEM softwares. You just have to know how. For the most part It's not worth my time if I come up against a problem. I'd just tell someone to get a non-OEM OS and never have to worry about it again.
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  7. Originally Posted by thevoelk
    Generally, when you buy your Dell/HP/Gateway etc, your "Come With My PC" is an OEM copy. MS cuts the system builders a deal on the cost of the OS so the system builder doesn't have to tack $200 onto the price of a new computer for XP Pro (I guess about $100 for XP home). In all actuallity, it's really the $200 (Retail Price) minus the OEM price would the cost not added to the computer.

    Since you're only "building" one PC (I use that loosley since it's built and you're re-installing), an OEM will serve you fine. You don't need to install it on multiple PCs, and you'll run into the same problem with the retail version since you still have to activate it.

    My earlier suggestion was to buy the OEM copy from newegg, I've done it before. It was, and I don't see why it would have changed, a generic copy meant for system builders. It has no less than functionality than the retail, but it must be sold with hardware. Newegg probably won't let you check out until a piece of hardware is inlcuded in your order.

    ROF, where did you hear that replacing anything but the system board is a different machine? MS understands hardware fails, and one or two hardware changes, aren't going to kill it. If it detects a new hard drive, no big deal. Same with a video card. If it detects those, plus a new NIC and sound card with an extra GB of RAM, it's going to assume it's a new PC. If replacing a mainboard was that big of a deal. MS wouldn't have instructions on their site on how to do it and circumvent the activation. My MS rep sent me an email detailing how it determines the activation, and the checks don't necessarily imply just a new piece of hardware or a replacement piece of hardware will kill it.
    Heres a link where I heard it

    http://www.flexbeta.net/main/comments.php?id=18469&catid=5

    Hers is a quote from part of it....
    The reason Microsoft gave for this term is that “Microsoft needed to have one base component “left standing” that would still define that original PC. Since the motherboard contains the CPU and is the “heart and soul” of the PC, when the motherboard is replaced (for reasons other than defect) a new PC is essentially created.”

    Maybe this helps.
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  8. Member thecoalman's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TBoneit
    when the motherboard is replaced (for reasons other than defect) a new PC is essentially created.”
    Sounds like a crock of shit to me, every component of computer cost more than the mobo with the exception of the dvd player. And how do they define defect and when?

    Once you buy a license you should be able to install on as many machines as you want providing that copy is only on one machine.
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  9. thecoalman, With the exception of people here for example. Most computer users that would never think about changing a motherboard are fearless when it comes to chaning other parts. Upgrade memory, change video card etc.

    There are few parts in the average computer that cost more than the motherboard/CPU combo. I exclude Gamers that buy the latest Video card every few months.

    Note: I said average computer.

    case/PS? Less
    CD-RW? Less
    DVD Rom? Less
    DVD Burner? Less
    Memory 256/512/1Gb? Less
    Video? Many people are quite happy with built in video.
    Hard drive? Less
    Floppy Drive? Less

    Generally people only change the motherboard for repair or more speed.
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  10. I have never replaced a motherboard on an OEM, but my former coworker had an e-machine that the motherboard went out on her. She bought a replacement motherboard, but windows would not install. She was told that she needed to buy a new copy of windows.

    If you were lucky enough to make it work, good for you. In most cases though, it is considered another computer.
    Believing yourself to be secure only takes one cracker to dispel your belief.
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    Whether Microsoft would or wouldn't allow it was moot in my case.

    When I swapped out the PC Chips mobo and Duron 1600 chip for a Biostar mobo and P4 (all other components including XP Home OEM OS left as-is) and booted, all I got was a BSOD.
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  12. Member thecoalman's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by TBoneit

    Note: I said average computer.
    But where does that leave people with high end machines, one stick of the ram I bought may have cost as much as the mobo,but two didn't. Some of the components you mention may have been close I'd have to look but for the most part they were at the very least equal....

    The video card was about 3x.... :P CPU was 2 or 3x, each drive was more....... One thing I will say, the mobo I purchased wasn't the best but it was sufficient for the components.... It was just good enough.
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  13. I suspect that when MS says motherboard they are really talking Motherboard & CPU. I say this as they make an exception for repairs. the Only reason 99%+ computer owners would change a motherboard (IMHO) besides repairs is to upgrade speed and/or memory and or features.

    Since they allow repairs I therfore conclude they mean Mobo & CPU when they say changing will require a new license.

    Cheers
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  14. Originally Posted by TBoneit
    I suspect that when MS says motherboard they are really talking Motherboard & CPU. I say this as they make an exception for repairs. the Only reason 99%+ computer owners would change a motherboard (IMHO) besides repairs is to upgrade speed and/or memory and or features.

    Since they allow repairs I therfore conclude they mean Mobo & CPU when they say changing will require a new license.

    Cheers
    In most cases, when you are replacing the motherboard, you are changing the processor. That is why that policy exists.
    Believing yourself to be secure only takes one cracker to dispel your belief.
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  15. Dv8ted2, Changing a Motherboard in a E-Machine today in fact, one of the chips burned up...

    One month changed 3 mobo's in e Machines. I believe they aren't the best quality. Despite seeing many more Dells/Compaqs/HPs here we change as many or more E machine mobo's than any of tose brands.

    Just Googled and it is a EliteGroup Computer (ECS) motherboard in the E machine I'm replacing.
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  16. as an addendum your co-worker if she had a OEM copy Xp should have been able to install it using the license & product key off of the back of her E-Machine and as it was a repair been able to activate it. It was being replaced as a repair not upgrade.
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  17. Knew It All Doramius's Avatar
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    ALl of this leads me to this statement.

    OEM OS's are definitely a cost alternative and a viable software to purchase. Be forewarned that they may not always work the way you want them to if you change out certain types of hardware.

    -What's it worth to you?

    If you build a machine and don't expext to do too much in upgrading, an OEM software might be perfect for you.

    If you have multiple machines or you do frequent updating of your hardware, shy away from OEM software unless you've had a bit more experience in using OEM products.

    Again, there are probably several ways to work around OEM software to get it to work properly, but is it worth your time and effort to make it run?
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  18. OEM Windows and office = much cheaper than full retail versions.

    having said that and keeping in mind that most people use their computers as they were delivered in terms of hardware. The things they upgrade are memory, Video, hard Drive size, maybe add a DVD burner to older machines.

    When we sell a new computer it goes with an OEM copy or we'd be priced out of the market.

    Customer tend to be optomistic when you ask questions. Example: We asked are you planning on playing games? Answer no, just Internet & Word proc. and maybe solitaire. Two weeks later, My new game won't play, answer you wanted lowest price, said no games, so built-in video to keep cost low, and it won't run your game.

    Typical scenario.
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    Originally Posted by TBoneit
    Example: We asked are you planning on playing games? Answer no, just Internet & Word proc. and maybe solitaire. Two weeks later, My new game won't play, answer you wanted lowest price, said no games, so built-in video to keep cost low, and it won't run your game.

    Typical scenario.
    I've solved this issue by not selling any machine without a dedicated graphics card. Radeon 9000 series and GeForce 4000 series cards are under $30 today. There is no choice. The customer receives a complete spec sheet before I make the purchase. When this question comes up after a purchase, and it sometimes does, my answer is to examine your spec sheet and compare it to the requirements on the games box. If you don't meet the minimum requirements then your machine will not play the game. I would never sell a PC with just onboard graphics today. It makes little sense to do so. Even mild surfing of the internet is assisted by a dedicated graphics board.

    The card I use for people who tell me they don't game alot is the XGI V3 128MB card. It's only $25 and provides plenty of head room for game play if the grand kids come over.
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    Hi guys;

    As usual, MS silly "activation" scheme breeds confusion, as does their nonsensical OEM vs Retail packaging.

    Just to toss in my 2 pence -

    1. According to MS, the OEM license is tied to the MB. However, you can indeed "repair" an MB via replacement, which I have successfully and legitimately done, and shall do in the future when necessary. In point of fact, if you replace with the same model of MB (assuming early failure so that MB is still in production), it does not even require "reactivation" - only the MAC address on the built-in NIC has changed and that's only 1 "point" (7 "points" or changes are allowed before activation is denied). I've done that too, and yes indeed, it boots up fine and licenturion shows it to be a fully activated copy. So, if you are like me and regard a MB and chipset as something to be used until they drop, it's no big deal.

    2. While changes in graphics card, memory and such will each count as "points" you may freely upgrade away and if activation is denied, call up. MS has been plenty understanding IME (knock on wood for luck after typing that last one though!).

    3. Even if XP tags your system as being "changed", it still gives you 3 days to activate. In other words, you may freely swap around HDD's for debugging so long as you don't leave them on for more than 3 days from the "new install". You can even turn off the annoying balloon reminders with xp antispy while you're doing your cleanup work.

    4. wpa.dbl (stored in C:\windows\system32) can and should be saved prior to a reformat and clean reinstall. Slide it back into the system in F8 (safe mode) and XP will generally ask to activate after rebooting - and have no issues with OEM "reactivation" on the clean install (so long as you've not changed out too much hardware during the meantime). I do this 2 or 3 times a year on each of the 3 main computers in my current cluster and it does indeed work. Moreover, if you do have to call in and get a new activation number, save the new wpa.dbl for future reinstalls.

    5. In a similar vein, OPA.dat (stored in C:\documents and settings\all users\application data\microsoft\office\data - you'll need to have both "show hidden" active and "hide protected system files" deactivated to see it) will allow reactivation of your legitimately licensed copy of Office 2003 via simple insertion. No f8 safe mode, internet connection, or telephone call are req'd (assuming that you've not gotten too aggressive with hardware swaps). Again, this is from personal experience - after a clean reinstall, I go right ahead and have had no issues at all with Office 2003's "activation".

    6. You may replace your HDD as many times as you like without a licensing issue in OEM versions of XP, period. If you don't want to run into loss of "points" on your activation with that, image the drive and make sure that the volume number on the HDD is the same after the change as before (that's how XP "checks" the HDD). There are several freeware utilities that will let you check and or alter a HDD's volume number if necessary.

    7. MS does indeed keep track of activations on a license number BUT they only store it for a limited time, after which you're starting fresh (supposedly it's at about the 120 day point, and that seems to fit with my experiences).

    8. From the questions asked of me at the MS activation centre, it would indeed appear that they are on the lookout for multiple installs of a single OS rather than trying to overtly hardware lock their customers. If you can truthfully answer that your OS is on one and only one computer and it's the same computer you started with, you SHOULD be okay (at least the way it's being played right now). That is of course subject to change at any time.

    9. Activation is a genuine pain that is 100% ineffective at combatting actual piracy in countries like India, China, and Russia. Worse, the fact that there is a built in logic bomb in my OS undermines my confidence in it to the point that the next major overhaul of my cluster will probably be a complete conversion to Linux, rather than dual booting. Activation will probably be with us as long as the MS monopoly continues though...(not too much longer, I hope!).

    Hope this has helped clarify a couple of things rather than muddy the waters further....

    All the best,
    Morse
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    A lot of folks are lumping the WinXP OEM activation issue with the motherboard swapping issue. It is clearly a two step process: first, get the new motherboard working with your old system image, second, get the new WinXP configuration activated. If you can't get WinXP up and running on the new configuration, you obviously can't activate, but that doesn't mean you wouldn't be able to activate IF you could get the machine running.

    Having done a number of these, the first is difficult (and maybe impossible in some cases) but can be done. But as far as activation goes, I have never had an issue with activation once I get the machine up and running. And that is for 3 separate (legal) WinXP Pro OEM licences. Again, there is NOTHING in the written license that comes with the OEM version that says that the license is tied to any particular piece of hardware on the machine. An OEM license pretty much means that MS will not provide direct support (outside of activation), that you as a builder are responsible for that.

    Someone said they couldn't even install WinXP on their newly swapped configuration. Clearly that is a different problem altogether and has nothing to do with same image MB swaps or WinXP OEM activation.

    I would strongly suggest trying to boot your OLD configuration with the cloned copy of your system before trying it on the new configuration. If it doesn't work, that means your clone is not ready to go and you will have NO chance to get the new configuration up and running.

    To have the best chance of this working, do the following:

    1) Clone your old system disk using the software provided by the new disk maker (or Ghost etc if you have it)

    2) Boot your OLD configuration using the NEW disk. If this doesn't work, don't even try to keep going! If it fails, try cloning again, possibly with a different tool

    3) Install the working clone in your NEW configuration. The best bet is to try and start in safe mode. It may or may not work. If it does, Windows will go through several boot cycles as it deletes and reinstalls drivers. Once you are running, you may need to install chipset specific drivers at this point.

    4) Normally, WinXP will tell you that you have made significant changes to your system and it needs to be reactivated. Let it do it over the 'net. Only once did I get a message back saying I had to call, and I had no trouble activating when I did, but most of the time, it just works.
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    Originally Posted by tphaggerty
    Again, there is NOTHING in the written license that comes with the OEM version that says that the license is tied to any particular piece of hardware on the machine. An OEM license pretty much means that MS will not provide direct support (outside of activation), that you as a builder are responsible for that.
    It's right in the OEM License: OEM versions are intended for system builders only and cannot be transferred to another PC once it is installed.

    The main difference between OEM and retail is that the OEM is licensed to only one machine whereas a retail packaging can be installed on multiple machines(single use) at any given time. To say that an OEM license doesn't spell out this most basic feature of the OEM packaging is false.
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  23. Originally Posted by ROF
    Originally Posted by TBoneit
    Example: We asked are you planning on playing games? Answer no, just Internet & Word proc. and maybe solitaire. Two weeks later, My new game won't play, answer you wanted lowest price, said no games, so built-in video to keep cost low, and it won't run your game.

    Typical scenario.
    I've solved this issue by not selling any machine without a dedicated graphics card. Radeon 9000 series and GeForce 4000 series cards are under $30 today. There is no choice. The customer receives a complete spec sheet before I make the purchase. When this question comes up after a purchase, and it sometimes does, my answer is to examine your spec sheet and compare it to the requirements on the games box. If you don't meet the minimum requirements then your machine will not play the game. I would never sell a PC with just onboard graphics today. It makes little sense to do so. Even mild surfing of the internet is assisted by a dedicated graphics board.

    The card I use for people who tell me they don't game alot is the XGI V3 128MB card. It's only $25 and provides plenty of head room for game play if the grand kids come over.
    Maybe you get a less frugal class of customer? We seem to get either super cheap or fancy as the requirement.

    To say all built in video is bad is not quite true, their are exceptions some of the MBs with built in Nvidia or ATI video are decent.

    In the case above we sold a Video card at cost... Same as if we'd priced it in when building.

    Cheers
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  24. Knew It All Doramius's Avatar
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    The retail version states it's to only be used on 1 machine as well. You are given 3 allowances of activation. After that, you have to call and get the activation over the phone. I've had no problems with that. I usually give some BS answer (IE: installed new HDD, had to Wipe the drive due to virus, blah blah blah). They give me that long a** key and I'm running. I have 5 (now working #6) PCs in my home. I'll s**t on a police officers desk in the middle of the day before I buy another retail OS. Another thing I've found is the upgrade versions of XP home can install the full version OS without having an OS already installed, and not in a FAT32 format. So my WinXP home 'upgrade' version is installed as full version on all my machines and only cost me $90.
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    Originally Posted by ROF
    It's right in the OEM License: OEM versions are intended for system builders only and cannot be transferred to another PC once it is installed.
    Yah got a page # on that baby or something other than your say so (or the MS website, which isn't know for being real clear on license terms unless its in their favor) cause I sure can't find it in mine. I find it REAL hard to believe that MS wouldn't shut down OEM sales at places like Newegg and others if OEM licenses were that restrictive. As Doramius says, I think the language says that the license is only valid for one machine at a time, which is always what I wind up with.

    Even so, what constitutes a "PC" ?? I don't know that MS defines that clearly. All I know is that I have had no problems replacing motherboards & getting the in-place verison of WinXP OEM activated (repeatedly). As far as I'm concerned, I haven't "transferred it to another PC", I'm simply upgrading the PC I already have. Even the point count that the activation code keeps track of isn't defining a "new" PC, its simply keeping track of how much your system has changed since it was last activated.

    And I'll be the first to admit that I probably wouldn't do it for most paying customers because I couldn't charge them enough to make it worthwhile, but for my own machines, its the way to go.
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  26. Knew It All Doramius's Avatar
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    It's obvious, the key to OEM activation problems stems from hardware.

    And as stated previously, WHAT DEFINES A PC?

    I could say it's the motherboard, but the HDD actually holds the OS information. That is essentially what runs your PC programs.

    But the HDD isn't the processing of the system. It's not the true brain. The particulars are involved in the Motherboard and CPU.

    Even still, your use is still determined by your ability to view it. PAL, NTSC & region coding have been after this issue for a long time, but PCs managed to slide past most of the problems with VGA. You just need a converter of sorts to view PAL, NTSC, or region encoded material.

    So what then defines a PC?

    Now doesn't OEM software have supporrt only for specific drivers (depending on what it is related to), whereas retail has more open support for more hardware?

    I could be totally wrong in this, but it would make sense that a particular OEM software supports only a specific Mobo line, so you could swap out anything but the Mobo. Another OEM might support anything to do with Asus. As long as the main hardware is Asus, you're good to go.

    Each individual OEM would be specific to what "IT" considers to be a PC, regardless of what actually defines a PC.

    Restating as an example, I get an OEM OS that specifically relates only to Seagate HDDs. I can swap any Seagate or Maxtor HDD, but If I use a Samsung HDD, I'm screwed. However, Any Mobo, CPU, VIdeo card, etc. from any company could be swapped out for anything else.

    Again, I could be totally wrong on this, but it makes sense.
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