How to get progressive ouput using cce sp

[pancake]

I'm testing cce sp to convert video files to mpg2 format. The source files are progressive and I want to keep the output progressive as well. In TMPGenc, it is very easy to do, but in cce I can't find how to do. The only way I know is set output to mpg1 or do an IVTC to make 24fps mpg2 output, and in either case the output is progressive. In other cases, the output is always interlaced even if you tell it the input is progressive.

Does anybody know if cce can output progressive mpg2(with 25fps or 29.97fps, not IVTC'd 24fps)? I have searched this forum but can't find an answer.

[manono]

If the input is progressive, then you can output progressive. If the input is interlaced, then the output will be interlaced. If the input is interlaced and you want to output progressive (why?), then you deinterlace or IVTC. You can't deinterlace in CCE to make it progressive. You do it when frameserving. I recommend the deinterlacers available with AviSynth.

But you said some pretty screwy things, so I'm not sure you know what you're asking. For example:

The source files are progressive and I want to keep the output progressive as well.

So, what's the problem? You check the progressive frame box in the Picture Quality section, and you set the progressive frame flag when running pulldown afterwards.

In other cases, the output is always interlaced even if you tell it the input is progressive.

I'm sorry, but I don't understand that. Are you talking about the result after running Pulldown within CCE? If so, of course it's interlaced.

Does anybody know if cce can output progressive mpg2(with 25fps or 29.97fps, not IVTC'd 24fps)? I have searched this forum but can't find an answer.

Yes, if the input is progressive and you set it up correctly, the output will also be progressive. I do it for both of those framerates all the time. Read the manual. Maybe you have the DVD Compliant box checked, or MPEG2 for DVD checked (depending on the version). If so, you can uncheck it if the source is already DVD compliant and run your pulldown afterwards.

[pancake]

Here is the test I did. Hope that will clarify what I said in the first post.

The input video is a short 352x288 25fps RMVB clip. Use Avisynth to feed frames to TMPGenc Plus 2.5 and CCE SP 2.70 trial, respectively. The output video is a 352x288 25fps 2500bps CBR mpg2 elementary clip. There are NO pulldown or reverse pulldown or other filters involved. Use the following programs to check if the output clip is progressive or interlaced: DGIndex(part of DGMPGDec), GSpot, Ulead DVD Workshop 2, Cyberlink PowerDVD.

First, use TMPGenc to convert the clip. Set Encode Mode to Interlace then do the conversion. Upon completion use the four programs to check the result clip. All four programs correctly identified it as interlaced.

In TMPGenc, set Encode Mode to Non-interlace and do the conversion again. Check the result with the four programs. All four correctly identified it as progressive.

Now switch to CCE SP. Load the avs script. In Picture Quality dialog, make sure Progressive frame is NOT checked. Do the encoding. Check the result with the four programs. All of them report the result is interlaced.

In CCE's Picture Quality dialog, check Progressive frame. Do the conversion again. Check the result. DGIndex reports it's progressive, but GSpot, DVD Workshop and PowerDVD report it is interlaced !!! PowerDVD tries to play the result video as interlaced so the video quality is not as good as it should be, unless I disable its built-in de-interlacer.

I changed the input video to other formats like xvid avi and mpg2 and do the test again. I also tried to fiddle with CCE's settings other than Progressive Frame. The result is the same.

In summary, TMPGenc always generates a video that other programs can correctly identify it is interlaced or progressive. But this is not true for CCE. No matter how you set Progressive Frame, the output video is always identified as interlaced by GSpot, DVD Workshop and PowerDVD.
I guess CCE generated mpg2 videos have some information missing so that some(or maybe most) other programs can't correctly detect if it's progressive or interlaced. Apparently DGIndex uses a different method to identify, which does not rely on this piece of missing information.

[BJ_M]

If the input is progressive, then you can output progressive. If the input is interlaced, then the output will be interlaced. If the input is interlaced and you want to output progressive (why?), then you deinterlace or IVTC. You can't deinterlace in CCE to make it progressive. You do it when frameserving. I recommend the deinterlacers available with AviSynth.

But you said some pretty screwy things, so I'm not sure you know what you're asking. For example:

The source files are progressive and I want to keep the output progressive as well.

So, what's the problem? You check the progressive frame box in the Picture Quality section, and you set the progressive frame flag when running pulldown afterwards.

In other cases, the output is always interlaced even if you tell it the input is progressive.

I'm sorry, but I don't understand that. Are you talking about the result after running Pulldown within CCE? If so, of course it's interlaced.

Does anybody know if cce can output progressive mpg2(with 25fps or 29.97fps, not IVTC'd 24fps)? I have searched this forum but can't find an answer.

Yes, if the input is progressive and you set it up correctly, the output will also be progressive. I do it for both of those framerates all the time. Read the manual. Maybe you have the DVD Compliant box checked, or MPEG2 for DVD checked (depending on the version). If so, you can uncheck it if the source is already DVD compliant and run your pulldown afterwards.

CCE SP has both deinterlacing and pulldown removal -- at least in the retail version anyway .. it also has the ability to do a extra pass for detection per GOP for pulldown for mixed sources

[adam]

On the Encoder Setting tab make sure that dvd compliant is not checked. Up at the top in the video setting tab you have mpeg2 checked and directly under that UNcheck the "for DVD" box.

Maybe a stupid suggestion but on the Picture Quality tab don't forget to hit apply after checking progressive frames.

[manono]

Hi-

...but GSpot, DVD Workshop and PowerDVD report it is interlaced !!!

You can try this. Run the M2V or MPV or whatever it is, though DGPulldown with the "No Change" box checked. My guess is that it'll then be seen as progressive by those 3 apps.

Thanks for the corrections, BJ_M. Actually, I never checked, as I don't do any deinterlacing or anything to do with pulldown in CCE.

[pancake]

I used DGPulldown with No Change checked, but the result is still seen as interlaced by the 3 apps.

[manono]

Oh yeah? Then sorry to have wasted your time. The reason I suggested running it through DGPulldown was because only progressive streams can be run through DGpulldown as it sets the progressive frames flag automatically. Pulldown.exe doesn't unlss you specify it. I don't know what the Pulldown in CCE does, having never used it. I'd trust DGIndex to tell you the truth over any other app. You do seem to be right that CCE does something differently from TMPGEnc, but I don't think it's anything to worry about.

Another thing you can do is to open it in ReStream and it should show you that you have a progressive stream. This one doesn't take any time.

[pancake]

Ok, I got it! ReStream finally solved my problem. Thank you, manono, for your help.

In ReStream, check "Progressive sequence" flag in Sequence Extension. For a CCE generated progressive video file, this flag is unchecked and that causes some apps to incorrectly see the video as interlaced.

This problem IS something to worry about for me, because my standalone DVD player(using composite video out and an analog TV) cannot display it correctly. The display quality of a CCE generated progressive video is noticably worse than that of a TMPGenc generated one. I guess my DVD player also incorrectly sees CCE generated video as interlaced and does some unnecessary processing that makes display quality worse. This problem also occurs when I use PowerDVD to play the video on my computer. PowerDVD incorrectly sees the progressive video file as interlaced so tries to do de-interlacing, which makes display quality worse. I can see comb artifacts. After I manually disable PowerDVD's de-interlacer, the video is displayed correctly with no comb artifacts.

[adam]

What version of CCE are you using? I've used CCE for years and tried most versions and I have never had this problem. If I enable progressive frames the prog_frames flag is always enabled and vice-versa.

Also just to make sure, after checking progressive in CCE you are hitting apply right?

[BJ_M]

ditto what adam says -- i suggest you contact your dealer and make sure you have an updated version

[manono]

Hi-

The prog_seq p flag is different from the prog_frames p flag. I turned it on a few times to see what it did, and all it did was to make my videos play jerky. I don't believe it's needed or recommended.

[adam]

I guess I didn't read his post well enough before. I thought he was talking about the prog_frames flag. The prog_seq flag actually should always be interlaced when making DVDs whether you are encoding with progressive frames or not. Its required in the standard. Only the prog_frames flag should change according to whether you are encoding with frame pictures or field pictures, and that is all that the progressive/interlaced option in an encoder would change.

pancake I think your problem may be in how you are authoring or multiplexing your streams into a program stream. The prog_seq flag should be interlaced and it should not be causing problems.

[pancake]

I just did a test using TMPGEnc Plus 2.5. I created a pal mpg2 program video(so I don't do multiplexing), using DVD PAL template from the project wizard (so I don't change any default settings). The source video is progressive, so the output is also progressive(It's default). Then I used ReStream to check the output video. Both Frametype progressive and Progressive sequence flags are set.

I also used ReStream to check some video files that were previously created by TMPGEnc Plus 2.5. As long as a video file is progressive, both flags are set.

If Progressive sequence flag should not be set for compliant DVDs, does that mean TMPGEnc is doing something wrong? For such a widely used encoder app, it seems hard to believe.

manono, I didn't find any DVD that was encoded using Tmpgenc and authored using dvd workshop played jerky. Many of them are progressive and should have both flags set.

[adam]

Well if you are using TMPGenc's DVD templates than yes it is indeed doing something wrong. You will occasionally see some retail DVDs that make this mistake too, and on most players it probably doesn't make a difference, but test just about any commercial DVD and you will see that the prog_sequence flag is set to interlaced. Its the default setting in pulldown.exe and in most mpeg encoders.

I used to have a bookmark to a technical document from mpeg.org that explained it in detail. I'm sure its still up there but its a mountain of information to wade through. But if you read Jim Taylor's DVD Demystified FAQ he discusses it and in section 3.4 he states that progressive sequence (prog_sequence=true) is not allowed for DVD, but you can have progress frames (prog_frames=true) within an interlaced sequence, which is of course how most DVDs are made.

And as far as finding it hard to believe that TMPGenc could make a mistake, I'm sorry to say that I have found numerous bugs with TMPGenc over the years. Most have been fixed but not all.

[manono]

Hi-

manono, I didn't find any DVD that was encoded using Tmpgenc and authored using dvd workshop played jerky. Many of them are progressive and should have both flags set.

Yeah, I was testing on NTSC movies with pulldown. Maybe that makes a difference, I don't know. I didn't think any more about it until you brought it up.