RIAA et al. says CD ripping, backups not fair use

[Steen4]

Another small point of contention concerning CD's and copy protection and the DMCA (from http://www.answers.com/topic/compact-disc ):

"Starting in early 2002, attempts were made by record companies to market "copy-protected" compact discs. Some of these deliberately introduced error patterns into audio tracks severe enough to defeat the error-correcting code (and hence defeat most CD-ROM drives attempting to copy the tracks as data), but not so disruptive as to prevent interpolation from working (hence allowing the same tracks to be played in audio mode without overly affecting fidelity).

"Another copy protection method places a data track (usually containing bonus software for computer users) at the end of the disc and gives it an invalid size in the disc's table of contents. This is intended to prevent the data track from being ripped, but can be defeated by ignoring the table of contents and reading the disc sector by sector.

"Philips has stated that such discs are not permitted to bear the trademarked Compact Disc Digital Audio logo because they violate the Red Book specification. It also seems likely that Philips' new models of CD recorders will be designed to be able to record from these "protected" discs. However, there has been great public outcry over copy-protected discs because many see it as a threat to fair use."

Most CD's, and certainly all manufactured during the '80's and '90's, are devoid of copy protection - it violates the CD spec. Refrain from using the scare tactics and convince me on an intellectual level, if you can...

To quote a famous movie monarch,"You are passionate, but you do not persuade."

[gadgetguy]

@gadgetguy

Maybe we aren't reading the same article. The article linked in the OP talks about the DMCA and it's effect/lack of effect on protecting copyright. Have you viewed a DVD published in the US? Have you seen an FBI warning on those DVDs you've purchased? A copyright holder has the right to determine how their intellectual property is viewed and distributed. The FBI warning tells you it's illegal to make a copy because that's the authors copyright determination. Making a backup of a DVD with such a warning label on it means you are violating the terms of fair use as it relates to the contained intellectual property.

Apparently not because the article I read talks about the position of the RIAA which has nothing to do with DVDs.

[ROF]

To quote a famous movie monarch,"You are passionate, but you do not persuade."

I do not wish to persuade. In fact, I don't even agree with what I've posted in this thread but the fact remains that if you circumvent copy protection or ignore the warning placed inside the CD cover or on the disc themselves(see FBI warning on DVDs) you are violating the law by making a backup copy of the disc and in the United States this offense is subject to 5 years in prison and/or a $250,000 fine for each offense.

[ROF]

@gadgetguy

Maybe we aren't reading the same article. The article linked in the OP talks about the DMCA and it's effect/lack of effect on protecting copyright. Have you viewed a DVD published in the US? Have you seen an FBI warning on those DVDs you've purchased? A copyright holder has the right to determine how their intellectual property is viewed and distributed. The FBI warning tells you it's illegal to make a copy because that's the authors copyright determination. Making a backup of a DVD with such a warning label on it means you are violating the terms of fair use as it relates to the contained intellectual property.

Apparently not because the article I read talks about the position of the RIAA which has nothing to do with DVDs.

In which case this isn't video related news and should be moved to off topic?

[Steen4]

Oh, yeah, SCMS...

SCMS is not a copy protection system per se: it's merely a flag denoting whether an inserted disk is an original or a copy. One can make unlimited copies of the root disk; "second generation" digital copies, however, are verboten.

[gadgetguy]

In which case this isn't video related news and should be moved to off topic?

That's up to the mods, but yes, I think it should be.

[Noahtuck]

Actually on the cd copy protection, out of over 4-5 hundred retail bought cd's, i have yet to own one that would not let me just drop it into my PC and copy it with any program i wish, so as far as i know i have yet to own one with any type of "copy protection"

When I use NERO (I use NERO EXPRESS) to make a COPY (using the COPY ENTIRE DISC option) of a music CD I notice that often times it will say that it has COPY PROTECTION but it makes a copy anyways.

What's that all about *shrug*

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

Ya know, i was thinking about that also while i was posting, but i did not mention it because as you said, NERO will just copy it anyways even after stating the fact
But i have made some cd's in the past, i don't remember with what, but it had an option where you could input the info for the cd and it had a spot where you could write in info for copyright and it would show up that way on nero also but did nothing to stop copying, like it was just info on the cd.

[Steen4]

Understand this, ROF: the FBI can put up a giant splash screen at the beginning of every DVD informing you that breathing incorrectly on the disc can result in your head being shoved into the toilet and having a turkey baster jammed up your ass, but these sorts of implicit agreements - akin to the infamous EULA and concert/sports tickets implied consent issues, because watching the disk assumes you have seen and agree with the terms of the warning - do not give the FBI, or any other entity, the right to supersede rights bestowed upon the individual by federal law. In other words, your rights under US law cannot be bandied about like a shuttlecock at the whim of subordinate agencies.

[ROF]

@Steen4

You are 100% correct. And Federal law states that you can not circumvent copy protection or encryption in order to make a backup copy.

All discs with the FBI warning contain such protection. You are not entitled to a backup copy because doing so would violate federal law of which you can be jailed for 5 years and/or pay a $250,000 fine for each offense.

[schunn99]

ROf,
but what if you get make a direct copy of the cd/dvd and don not circumvent these copy protection. they cannot say that the is illegal since you have not cracked the encrytion or copy protection.

to all,
Like many of have said, I have never seen a copy protected music cd. all I know is if there was copy protection on the cd when I stick a cd in my computer and load itunes then I would not be able to copy my cds into itunes.

I hate the riaa, they have served their purpose, it is time to get rid of them. Big business is just interested in profit and they just want to screw the customer to get it.

[mattso]

@Steen4

You are 100% correct. And Federal law states that you can not circumvent copy protection or encryption in order to make a backup copy.

All discs with the FBI warning contain such protection. You are not entitled to a backup copy because doing so would violate federal law of which you can be jailed for 5 years and/or pay a $250,000 fine for each offense.

Who gives a shit? **** 'em.

[smearbrick1]

It would be so amazing for a major label artist to bail from their label and market their own stuff on the web successfully. Leave the RIAA in the cold.

I can guarantee you, if it worked, you would see a huge amount of bands migrate from major labels to independant releases with self promotion.

[Cornucopia]

...All discs with the FBI warning contain such protection....

That is so NOT true!

[ROF]

...All discs with the FBI warning contain such protection....

That is so NOT true!

which discs with the FBI warning do not contain any form of copy protection?

[Noahtuck]

...All discs with the FBI warning contain such protection....

That is so NOT true!

Yep,
I was gonna say that also as i have a few music cd's i have bought that have the FBI logo on them, right on the disc itself, with the warning and there is not any copy protection on them.

[Doramius]

I wonder if I could get a full refund for my MP3 player if they make it illegal to put music on it.

IE: Sony makes music, Sony makes MP3 players. It becomes illegal to transfer music to MP3 players. MP3 players by Sony have no practical use and Sony allowed people to break the law by initially providing the technology to do so.

[Cornucopia]

which discs with the FBI warning do not contain any form of copy protection?

In an effort to forestall any attempt at revisionism, I'll define "copy protection"...

It is a technical mechanism in the system in question where it allows viewing/playback, but has methods for automatically preventing copying--systemwide.

This includes, but is not limited to:
Encryption (such as CSS)
Marginalizing (such as Macrovision/APS) for analog outputs
Bad/Misdirected Data Sectors (such as ArcCos)

This does not include:
Copyright flag (this is just a "notification" that something is copyrighted)
CPRM/CPPM (these "flags" do NOT work systemwide on both Settops and Computers--only on recent Settop Recorders; early settops and ALL computers and duplicators are built to ignore these flags in the absence of CSS).


So, while the great majority of Hollywood discs fall in the 1st batch, there are still plenty of corporate/small business/individual/foreign films/etc. that DON'T have CSS (because they couldn't afford it, because they duplicated/not replicated so it's not available, or because they thought it wasn't worth the hassle post-DeCSS). And even among those, there are plenty of discs that don't even have the "copyright" or CPRM/CPPM flags engaged.

And the "FBI warning" is just a declaration of the copyright owners rights, it's not a "mechanism" of copy protection, per se.
(There are a few Hollywood discs that are quite "naked", but I'm going to be quiet about which ones they are).

And, this is really only pertinent to DVD-Video, as AudioCD's have nothing in their spec (the original RedBook, not these new "workarounds") with anything beyond the "copyrighted" flag.

Scott

[somebodeez]

http://www.riaa.com/issues/ask/default.asp#stand

What is your stand on MP3?

This is one of those urban myths like alligators in the toilet. MP3 is just a technology and the technology itself never did anything wrong! There are lots of legal MP3s from great artists on many, many online sites. The problem is that some people use MP3 to take one copy of an album and make that copy available on the Internet for hundreds of thousands of people. That's not fair. If you choose to take your own CDs and make copies for yourself on your computer or portable music player, that's great. It's your music and we want you to enjoy it at home, at work, in the car and on the jogging trail. But the fact that technology exists to enable unlimited Internet distribution of music copies doesn't make it right.

Screenshot:

[Jumbo_Holden]

Im not paying over £100 ($175) to import DVD's of later Bewitched Seasons from Japan (not released anywhere elese).. and playing the original discs and getting them damaged and stratched.

I am going to make copies of them to watch from, becuase there so important to me so f**k you MPAA and Sony you've got me over a barrel with them and ive paid you your money for them so go f**k yourselfs

[somebodeez]

The RIAA is concerned with music.
It's the MPAA that concerns movies (ie: dvds)

However, I think a LOT of people have the same sentiment as you for BOTH industries. :P

[Doramius]

one thing I find funny is that they say, "you shouldn't have to make a backup of your movies. They make the movies affordably available at retail stores.

F**K YOU MPAA!

Last time I checked I paid $15 for a DVD that was released 3 years ago. It is now selling for $11. If my son scratches the disc, I gotta spend $11. If I back it up, the blank is around $1 at the most. I paid for a license to watch that movie on my home DVD player. Now I have to pay for another license because of a scratch? I'll DL the movie for $1 and do a burn that way, if they set it up properly.

[painkiller]

It's AAAAAALLLLLL about da money.

Who's got it, who wants it and who has to give it up.

And for those that need the explanation....

RIAA crys the blues over losing income due to piracy - so they ramp up their efforts to catch da 'bad guys' and never mind how they do it.

Same for the MPAA and the movie industry. They cry over the diminishing Box Office receipts so they blame it on piracy - ramp up their efforts to catch da 'bad guys' and [also] never mind how they do it.

It's as if the industries can't tell the public is now in the business of putting theaters in their OWN HOMES! If the public is saturated with the music and movies they like (and don't care and or bother with new media) they won't spend so much because THEY ALREADY HAVE IT.

Sheesh. You'd think they'd understand already.