Create 5.1 DVD from captured DV (stereo)

[vcdmaker]

Hi,

Is it possible to render multiple wave files from the audio (stereo)extracted from captured DV in order to create 5.1 surround sound ? In other words; how can i create 5.1 surround from the stereo recorded with my DV camera?



Thanks

[guns1inger]

Realistically, you cant. You don't even have very good stereo if you used the built in microphone on the camera.

Your best bet is to keep it simple, keep it stereo, and use the compression of AC3 to give you more space for the video. If you don't have a commercial encoder, ffmpeggui will encode 2 channel AC3 for you.

If you want to experiment, have a read of this post https://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=291881

It describes a tool and methods for creating pseudo 5.1 audio from stereo sources. Is it true 5.1 - that's a philisophical question for audio engineers to debate. It can help to fill out the extra speakers, however it works best with a well seperated stereo source. As I stated at the beginning of this post, if you used the built in mic in your camera, you don't have a great starting point.

[MOVIEGEEK]

Yeah the microphone on most camcorders has a response of 100-10,000Hz and the stereo seperation is minimal,encoding to 5.1 would be pointless.
Now if you use 5 seperate microphones running to camcorders then it might work.You could then import the audio to your PC and use CoolEdit,etc to mix to 5.1.

[stevethomson]

If you used the built in mic in your camera, you don't have a great starting point.

Actually, those built-in mikes can produce better results than a commercial soundtrack sometimes. In my tests with V.I, I noticed that recordings that seemed to be done naturally with stereo mikes produced much more realistic results when the ambience was extracted. A lot of 80's material (both music and movie soundtracks) was laden with heavy artificial processing, reverbs, etc. Extracting that artificial ambience really exposed its lack of authenticity.

Shortly after releasing my first beta of V.I, I got an email from a fellow who took some old home movies and created DVDs with them using V.I for the soundtrack. He was quite happy with the results.

As you wrote, whether or not it's "true surround" is a matter of debate. I feel it's certainly as true as taking a mono or stereo source and running it through a surround reverb as can be done with professional audio software nowadays. Again, the difference isn't in the process, it's in the source being already mixed instead of an isolated sound.

Regards,
Steve.

[greymalkin]

it's good to know that commercial microphones aren't as good as the tiny things that come integrated into our camcorders.

but even with that aside...what does this plugin do better than pushing the ProLogicII button on my receiver? Lets try not to stray too far from the truth with this one...

[mikiem]

"but even with that aside...what does this plugin do better than pushing the ProLogicII button on my receiver? Lets try not to stray too far from the truth with this one..."

My arm's not that looooonnnnggggg.

Seriously actually. Not everyone has it, not everyone bothers to always hook up the audio system, or turn it on, mixdown to stereo or mono can produce clearer dialog then stereo ac3, some folks with PCs don't like bundled software generated surround if software [over] amplifies bass.

"it's good to know that commercial microphones aren't as good as the tiny things that come integrated into our camcorders."

Personal opinion and all that, a good mic to mini-cd matched & mixed with a touch of camcorder audio can provide a bit of nice ambiance if you want it, particularly if the mic's highly directional or far away or...

[stevethomson]

it's good to know that commercial microphones aren't as good as the tiny things that come integrated into our camcorders.

But that's not what I wrote. I said that those tiny built-in microphones can produce better results for stereo to surround conversions than commercial soundtracks heavily processed with artificial effects. It's all about capturing real room ambience. Any stereo miking setup will do that to some extent. It might be terrible frequency response, etc., but if it's all a person has got, there's no need to discard it.

but even with that aside...what does this plugin do better than pushing the ProLogicII button on my receiver? Lets try not to stray too far from the truth with this one...

I haven't seen anyone straying too far from the truth on anything here. If you see something I've written you think is so, then by all means let me know and I'll attempt to clarify.

Pro Logic II is a good system but it has limitations. If you go to Dolby's web site and read the technical papers, do a bit of testing on your own, and really think about the technical info (or read between the lines of it) some things become clear. If you have a soundtrack encoded for playback in DPLII, the result is quite good. If you use it to listen to regular stereo material, the result is better than listening to the material over just 2 channels, but it's really not very different from listening to such material through an old DPLI or Dolby Surround system. These suffered from several limitations, the main one being mono surrounds. They were based on the same principles as something called a Hafler circuit that's been around for over 30 years.

V.I is sort of a bastard hybrid offspring of something called Ambisonics, which is a bit more complex than a simple Halfer circuit (check out www.ambisonic.net if you're interested). I don't claim V.I is some magical little software device that can change the face of recorded sound. It's simply something I put together that produced results I found interesting, a lot more interesting for me personally than hitting a DPLII button on a receiver. I shared it with others on the doom9 forums for over a year and a lot of them liked it. I gave it a more official release and so here we are.

It's free. I'm not making any money off it. I have no agenda. I don't claim it walks on water. I just like what it does for audio. I could talk about how it provides adjustments that DPLII doesn't, or a movie mode that actually attempts to center dialog (DPLII's movie mode basically just adds a 20ms delay to the rear speakers). In the end, it all comes down this: try it. If you don't like it, you're not out any money. If you don't have the time to spare, by all means press that DPLII button and enjoy it!

Regards,
Steve.

[dipstick]

All I can say is that, V.I really adds some dimension to my sound system. I've been playing around with it when ever I have some free time. It's been fun!

I even d/l Plogue Bidule trial version (man what a crazy proggie) and loaded up your Templates (great job by the way) and output a 6 channel wav. I used Sonic Foundry Soft Encode and quickly realized they use different sequence of channels. I didn't feel like resetting the channels for every file I imported, so I Rewired the output in Plogue Pidule. This lets me use the Batch Convert in Soft Encode to convert multiple files at once. Another tip is to use GoldWave's Batch Processing to Correct DC offset and Resample to 48 khz all the files you plan to use.

V.I can also be used in Kristal Audio Engine (free), but you have to use the three standalone VST Effects to output 3 seperate 2-channel wave files. It takes a little longer, but it can be done just fine.

Great Job on V.I! Sure it's not for everybody, but it is worth a look.

[maek]

Dipstick---

How do you actually use Kristal in the manner you suggest?

[stevethomson]

dipstick,

I'm happy to hear you've been enjoying V.I. Playing around with this stuff can be almost addictive! I find myself amazed at how much audio information there is "hidden away" in the average stereo mix.

One thing I might point out for other readers of this thread is that resampling to 48kHz is necessary for audio that's destined to be part of a DVD soundtrack or for an audio DVD (one done with still images). However, if someone is attempting to create a surround CD, it's essential that the audio file be at a sampling rate of 44.1kHz or else it won't work.

Regards,
Steve.

[stevethomson]

Dipstick---

How do you actually use Kristal in the manner you suggest?

Maek,

Just load your stereo track into the Waver section, then process and save it to file three times. The first time, use the fLfR plugin; the second, the CLFE plugin; the third time, the sLsR plugin. Then either split the three stereo files to create six mono files, or combine them to create one 6-channel file. It all depends on the encoder you plan to use. Also, you need to know the channel order the encoder uses. Some follow the ITU standard I used for V.I (L, R, C, LFE, sL, sR); others use different orders.

Good luck,
Steve.

[greymalkin]

steve..

sorry for being a jerk. i apparently mis-understood your post.

I actually kinda want to try this utility out now

[stevethomson]

steve..

sorry for being a jerk. i apparently mis-understood your post.

I actually kinda want to try this utility out now

No problem. I hope you like it. Let us know how it works out for you.

[dipstick]

stevethomson wrote:

maek wrote:
Dipstick---

How do you actually use Kristal in the manner you suggest?


Maek,

Just load your stereo track into the Waver section, then process and save it to file three times. The first time, use the fLfR plugin; the second, the CLFE plugin; the third time, the sLsR plugin. Then either split the three stereo files to create six mono files, or combine them to create one 6-channel file. It all depends on the encoder you plan to use. Also, you need to know the channel order the encoder uses. Some follow the ITU standard I used for V.I (L, R, C, LFE, sL, sR); others use different orders.

That's a very good expaination. I did it a little differently, but your way is just as good. One important thing to note, is you need to go into the Mixer to apply the VST Effects. Maybe if I have some free time, I'll write a tutorial on doing it with Kristal. I'm still very much in the learning stages, having only used it a half dozen times now.

Steve,

I have a question if you don't mind. I'm using your Layout in Plogue Bidule and I'd like to know how important is it to export in 32bit. I'd like to output in 24bit to reduce file sizes. Should I uncheck Export 32bit in the 5.1 Output Group, or just change the output setting to 24bit?

I'm getting a crash course on Plogue, Kristal and 5.1 Audio because of V.I. I'm having fun though.

Thanks,

[stackner]

ive been using it on some of my dvds i have that only have stereo sound. i rip the dvds and demux them then i run the audio through vi using sound forge then i encode the audio to the 5.1 ac3 file using soft encode then i place my new 5.1 audio track and the original 2 channel audio track back into the dvd using dvd remake pro. i know it's not as good as a baught new dvd with 5.1 but i am very happt with it for my dvds that do not have 5.1 much more pleasant watching these movies on the surround system now. great app/plugin!!!!!!!!

[stevethomson]

I have a question if you don't mind. I'm using your Layout in Plogue Bidule and I'd like to know how important is it to export in 32bit. I'd like to output in 24bit to reduce file sizes. Should I uncheck Export 32bit in the 5.1 Output Group, or just change the output setting to 24bit?

You're better off changing the setting yourself to 24bit. Unchecking the 32bit box turns on dithering to 16 bits. If that's what you want, fine, but the drop in quality from 32-24 is generally considered to be negligible, whereas there is a definite difference between the higher levels and 16-bit audio.

I'm getting a crash course on Plogue, Kristal and 5.1 Audio because of V.I. I'm having fun though.

I'm glad you're having fun with it. Plogue is an amazing tool. I find myself experimenting with it all the time. In fact, I used Plogue to design what eventually became V.I. There are so many aspects of it that I have yet to explore.

Steve.

[stevethomson]

ive been using it on some of my dvds i have that only have stereo sound. i rip the dvds and demux them then i run the audio through vi using sound forge then i encode the audio to the 5.1 ac3 file using soft encode then i place my new 5.1 audio track and the original 2 channel audio track back into the dvd using dvd remake pro. i know it's not as good as a baught new dvd with 5.1 but i am very happt with it for my dvds that do not have 5.1 much more pleasant watching these movies on the surround system now. great app/plugin!!!!!!!!

Great to hear you're enjoying it. Yes, it's nice to switch the 5.1 on and hear something full coming out of the speakers.

[daphy]

Hi Steve

nice to see you here, too

I´d like to spread another hardware based methode into this discussion. What do you think about DTS NEO -> back to hitting the button on your amp

*************************************************

Another thing I tested on a DualDisc ('Kind of blue' by Miles Davis 1959).
I tried that 5.1 thing offered on the DVD-Video side of this disc and was disapointed - I compared it with a ambisonic upmix (EOH) I did in 2003 and found out that even my old unbalanced version sounds better. My new attemp was V.I 1.1.
I used the normal settings - just lower the surround level a little. The comparison was even more interesting.
If I should make a ranking about the sonic it would go like:

1. V.I 1.1
2. old ambisonic
3. PCM in DolbyPL2 mode / AC3 upmix by the studio

After all I still enjoy this dual disc because of the extra content 'Making of Kind of Blue' without it will questionable the worth of having this disc.
Meanwhile I´m about to reauthor this disc with the addition of the V.I track
thank you Steve!

CYA Daphy

[stevethomson]

Great to see you here as well daphy. You mentioned neo:6. I have an Creative Labs Audigy 2 ZS with a neo setting. I must say it's not bad. Unfortunately, it only works for playback, not writing to file.

[daphy]

AFAIK there was a VST plugin by I guess George which plays with those effects as well -> it must be inside the plugin package

DTS NEO also could be recorded with Audigy 2+ on the fly - there also was a thread on doom9

I mentioned this here just to hear some statments, which might or does sound better :P

CYA Daphy

[stevethomson]

AFAIK there was a VST plugin by I guess George which plays with those effects as well -> it must be inside the plugin package

DTS NEO also could be recorded with Audigy 2+ on the fly - there also was a thread on doom9

I mentioned this here just to hear some statments, which might or does sound better :P

CYA Daphy

Yes I remember that plugin. Unfortunately, it didn't seem to work for me at all, certainly nothing like the CL effect.

I recall seeing the doom9 thread about using the "what u hear" CL feature. I haven't played with it much because I can never find reliable info on whether or not the data is converted to analog first and then redigitized. In addition, I prefer working with plugins such as V.I, because there are additional things that can be done with other effects in conjunction. Once I have some results, I'll write a guide. Actually I just had another idea on the drive to work this morning that I'm anxious to try on the weekend. It might be cool (or it might be useless too! ).

Regards,
Steve.

[mikiem]

If it helps at all...
"I haven't played with it much because I can never find reliable info on whether or not the data is converted to analog first and then redigitized"

Realize you've probably been there done that, but all research in places like Driver Heaven lead me to the opinion yes.

"it only works for playback, not writing to file. "

Have you tried recording with Mediasource?
FWIW, Originally went to Aud 2X as one of few cards that lets you access individual channels at output in Vegas. Seems the conection at output is also tapped for recording, though I can only do it with Mediasourcce, which won't do anything but [size limited] wav files. Probably other means using KX drivers but those don't play well with ati so I can't experiment.

[stevethomson]

Probably other means using KX drivers but those don't play well with ati so I can't experiment.

Thanks for the info. I used to be a big kx driver supporter but development seemed to stagnate and jump around in erratic changes of direction. I also found the attitude on the forum can be needlessly defensive and hypocritical at times.

Plus, I went ahead and installed big, bad, evil Creative Labs software and discovered that it worked fine for me. I added ASIO4ALL on top of it to give me 44.1kHz playback in ASIO and now kx just seems like an interesting toy I used to play with with I had an old SB Live Value. It's great for someone with a Soundblaster Live but for an Audigy 2 ZS, it's not nearly as advanced as the CL drivers.

I've tried recording with mediasource but just to capture audio I'm unable to save to file using other apps. Realtime capture seems soooo slooooow. It's actually an ok app. I've been a foobar2K fan for awhile now so whenever I can use it, I do.

Regards,
Steve.

[mikiem]

"I've tried recording with mediasource but just to capture audio I'm unable to save to file using other apps. Realtime capture seems soooo slooooow. It's actually an ok app."

Perhaps the oddball setup of all time , use mediasource recording (at same time as vid capture) from substandard co-ax spdif using CL ac3 decoder. For now issue is moot, as *very* little 5.1 on local dig. cable, but wish I could find software with as small a footprint to record 5.1 in same way as lossless wma that could be converted.

[maek]

Shoot - I'm having trouble encoding as a 5.1 source as suggested. Has anyone developed a tutorial on this?

[bobcat56458]

@ stevethomson, I think I’m the guy you were referring to about making a DVD from old camcorder footage. I still enjoy the V.I. 5.1 conversions from stereo DV camcorder material that I do. The new Movie mode, and 3 separate VST plugins for working in other programs besides Plogue Bidule are a good addition to the application. When I record events with my DV cams I try to always use an external stereo condenser microphone, like the Audio Technica AT822 so I’m not plagued with the cams motor noise, and limited frequency response. It also has better stereo separation, which yields a better 5.1 V.I. mix. About the kX Project 3ed party drivers for Creative Labs soundcards, I would say for the average person they are not advantageous. But if you’re like me, and want to wire your DSP effects to specific inputs they are the way to go. As an example I made up a DSP template that I use for Karaoke (you can stop laughing now ) that allows me to have two separate highly configurable stereo reverbs, one for the microphone, and one for the Midi Karaoke file, both in real time. I can also record both the Midi/vocal, or just the vocal using a Karaoke program called KaraFun. This is not possible using the KaraFun program with the Creative drivers, and along with a large GM SoundFont adds a lot to the computer Karaoke sound quality. Another advantage of the kX drivers are there ability to transfer bit-for-bit digital audio, which I used when archiving my studio DAT digital audiotapes to data DVD's. So you can see for a limited set of users like musicians & audio hobbyists the kX drivers have their advantages.