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  1. Rancid User ron spencer's Avatar
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    there will always be D-A converters to get rid of this stuff..Sima or someone wil make something. I have to fears that there will be workarounds....for 95% of the population who is lazy they won't even bother and will just sit there banging their heads..for the rest of us no problem. I would give the BF a week tops before a device comes out to fix it.

  2. Member
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    Originally Posted by painkiller
    To BobK:

    If you are familiar with TIVO menus...

    And now I have had these two experiences to show that they have integrated their own protections (probably dependent upon the firmware revisions that occur over time) to prevent using those vcr rf connections at will. A special icon will be present in these circumstances along with a short text message indicating you can only watch this program or delete it.
    I'm not familiar with TIVO menus. I can see how they could block the VCR connections from letting you record. I misunderstood and thought you were saying they could also block you from connecting the coax cable to the VCR and recording through that. You could still do that couldn't you?

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    I suspect ROF works in the industry. I have NEVER heard opinions like his/hers outside of the industry. Never.

    He completely ignores the Supreme Court ruling. Keep it up, ROF. Maybe if you say it often enough...
    I don't have a bad attitude...
    Life has a bad attitude!

  4. Banned
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    Originally Posted by ron spencer
    . . . for 95% of the population who is lazy they won't even bother and will just sit there banging their heads..for the rest of us no problem.
    This is 100% true. How many people outside what would be considered somewhat video knowledgeable are still banging their heads because their DVD recorder won't allow them to backup their DVD movie collection? I dare say more than 50% of those people own a computer with a DVD burner and internet access, yet they still haven't figured out the solution.

    It's acceptable to both business and consumers alike that for every copy protection put into place it will only be a matter of time before a work around is found. Lack of widespead release of that information is what business used to hope would solve the problem. What has happened recently is most of those people who wouldn't know about these work arounds or illegal sites and programs have been finding out this information on their nightly news broadcasts and local papers. The stories may be bringing a negative tone but what intellectual property owners have done is open a new avenue of communication where those out of the technological loop are increasingly finding out solutions to their problems simply by following a news ticker.

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    Originally Posted by leebo
    I suspect ROF works in the industry. I have NEVER heard opinions like his/hers outside of the industry. Never.

    He completely ignores the Supreme Court ruling. Keep it up, ROF. Maybe if you say it often enough...
    Which Supreme court ruling allows you to archive television broadcasts?

    Time shift, Yes, which if you actually spent time to read my posts you'd learn that I don't agree with the broadcasters removing this right, but I am in favor of them being the server of such timeshifts as someone else suggested. That would save me time and money from having to purchase or rent a piece of equipment, install it, and in some cases continually supply media to it just so I can watch LOST on Saturday evenings instead of when the broadcaster says so.

    Let the broadcaster store my shows(timeshift) and in return prevent me from ever recording them on devices inside my home and I'd be happy.

    Perhaps as a suggestion they'd even allow us to create a playlist which we could access over at someone elses house who also had a cable(sat) box from which we could pull down our stored shows for shared viewings.

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    In reply to ROF:

    IMO piracy implies that you are getting money or some other form of payment for anything that you copy.

    I have in the 30 years that I have copied music (from LP's to Cassette and CD), TV programs and movies to VHS (and Beta!!!!) have never charged anybody for any copy that I may have given them.

    I know that most of us in the same boat have given friends and family music, programs, or movies that we have copied from various sources. I think that even this falls under the "fair use" rule.

    What I object to is having cable or sat. companies unfairly stop this.

    If and when it becomes law to require copy protection on broadcast TV, then we will obey the law, as of right now I don't think that this is law.

    Another point. If I spend $20 to $50 a month to subscribe to a cable or sat. package, then I should be able to (with in reason) do anything with the signal that comes into my home. Is it illegal to let someone who doesn't have this package come into my home a watch, NO, so should it be illegal for me to copy this signal for my own use?

    NO!!

    Regor

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    Originally Posted by Regor
    In reply to ROF:

    IMO piracy implies that you are getting money or some other form of payment for anything that you copy.

    I have in the 30 years that I have copied music (from LP's to Cassette and CD), TV programs and movies to VHS (and Beta!!!!) have never charged anybody for any copy that I may have given them.
    According to the Harvard Law definition Piracy as it relates to what we are discussing is the unauthorized duplication of goods protected by intellectual property law (e.g. copying software unlawfully). According to the Montana State University piracy is copying and/or distributing of software without the permission of the writer or publisher. It is generally accepted that piracy as it's defined would include the actions you've described above. The fact that you don't consider it piracy does not make it so.

    Originally Posted by Regor
    Another point. If I spend $20 to $50 a month to subscribe to a cable or sat. package, then I should be able to (with in reason) do anything with the signal that comes into my home. Is it illegal to let someone who doesn't have this package come into my home a watch, NO, so should it be illegal for me to copy this signal for my own use?

    NO!!
    This is where the common misconception comes into play. You are paying for the right to view the transmission. You do not own the broadcast, you can not do whatever you wish with it once it passes from the pole to your home. If this were the case only one person on your block would need to subscribe and the rest of us could just hook up splitters and run our own transmission lines out of your house and into ours. It is also illegal (by the law) to record a television show and rebroadcast it with your friends. That is a general copyright violation called public performance violation. I don't agree with that last bit but it is a violation of the law.

    The big problem is there are quite a few (read most) people who feel as you do that your rebroadcasting, sharing, and passing along copies without charge isn't a violation of intellectual property copyright laws when in fact everything you've described is pretty much covered under the laws. The problem is that technology has allowed us to create the environment where casual violation goes unnoticed until it becomes an epidemic. The broadcast flags intent is to stop not only this epidemic but also bring into line those who have gotten used to casually violating the law.

  8. Hello all,
    first of all I would like to thank all of you that has read this far and realize that this has gotten way 'off topic', I apoligize. But here's my 'two cents'.

    Greed + Profit Forever = movie industry.

    Granted the music/movie entertainment industry has a right to protect its properties but when does it become 'excessive'. What I mean about this is, no other industry in the world keeps making a profit on something over and over again. When media goes from the Theatres to DVDs to TV/Cable ,a profit is made. A doctor does'nt keep charging you on a operation years ago because you are still using the part. And a mechanic does'nt ask for a percentage of you paycheck cause you drove to work.

    I think that if something is shown on cable you should be able to record it. The same goes for music on the radio or the internet. I don't want to have to buy the same thing over and over just cause it's on another 'new and better' format (read: more profit and control for the industry). What rights should a consumer have when buying music or movies? Are we owning or just renting?

    Here's an odd thought: If someone has watched/heard a cd/movie and does something harmful or wrong because of it : Could you say it's not your fault cause you don't own it?

    later.

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    Originally Posted by lumfan
    A doctor does'nt keep charging you on a operation years ago because you are still using the part.
    That's odd. I had heart surgery in the early 80's and my doctor still charges me each time he wants to take a listen to his work.

  10. Rancid User ron spencer's Avatar
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    @ ROF

    your post above:

    What has happened recently is most of those people who wouldn't know about these work arounds or illegal sites and programs have been finding out this information on their nightly news broadcasts and local papers. The stories may be bringing a negative tone but what intellectual property owners have done is open a new avenue of communication where those out of the technological loop are increasingly finding out solutions to their problems simply by following a news ticker.
    This is why the new copy protections are doomed to fail. In that past everyone was hush hush about this sort of thing. Now CNN, local radio, etc are braodcasting everyday on how to crack stuff. This will be the same for ACSS, BF, etc. Everyone will be looking for a solution, hence a market will develop to solve the demand. Had the industry jsut laid low and treated everyone like adults I bet they would have less of an issue with piracy. This new legislation/whatever only serves as an impetus for "regular" folk to "give it to the man".

    My prediction: piracy is only on the way up and the only way to eliminate it is to get rid of the internet. RIAA and others have shot themselves in the foot. Everyone knows about then and (rational of not) everyone hates them.

    Solution: Treat people like you want to be treated...unless of course you believe everyone is a thief. Any if you do then you are in the minority and will end up losing in the long run.

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    Joe Barton, the chairman of the House Energy and Commerce Committee, says there won't be any legislative action taken this year on the broadcast flag, so the earliest they could even consider legislation to implement the broadcast flag would be about a year from now.

    That means that, for a least a couple years, there is no LEGAL requirement for any corporation to cripple their product (whether it's equipment or providing content) by adhering to a broadcast flag. Any corporation that CHOOSES to do so will not get my business($).

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    @ ron spencer

    That is my greatest concern. Lately the copy protection mechanisms have only harmed those who either don't understand what they are doing is illegal or those who have no (at least initially) intent to perform illegal actions. The Sony Rootkit is a clear cut example of a protection system gone awry that targets everyone and considers everyone a thief. while the broadcast flag doesn't go as far as harming the systems of those who come in contact with it at least that I'm aware of it does treat everyone like a thief and it does restrict one big glaring fair use right. The right to timeshift. I enjoy my PVR very much. I would not appreciate trying to record a television show for later viewing only to find out i couldn't. I can understand why I can't record HBO programming or PPV programming as I could in the past but I fear the next step is a broadcast flag that is widely used to block recording of virtually everything without any recourse.

    I do partially support the broadcast flag because I understand the reasoning for it. What I don't like is the way the industry will eventually treat it. If the broadcast companies do decide to start flagging alot of programming with "copy never' flags I hope they offer a solution such as server side "copy always" flags to at least allow us to continue to enjoy television at our convenience. The VCR while an ancient tool is a marvel of technology. Without it I probably would have missed alot of good worthwhile programming. I don't own a VCR anymore and have replaced it with a few DVD recorders and a DVR box. My use of these devices hasn't changed since I began recording television. I admit to sometimes keeping things a little longer than I should and also allowing others to watch programming I've recorded either at my house or theirs.

    I feel as you, without a compromise the system is doomed to failure or at the very least a very harsh backlash against the purchases of the very intellectual property these broadcasters are trying to protect.

  13. Member painkiller's Avatar
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    To BobK:

    In my case, I have opted not to hookup a vcr at all - even though I realized I could use either method (using TIVO's intended RCA phono jacks to a vcr or actually plugging a vcr in-between TIVO's output to the tv monitor - and the tv itself.

    For now, I don't care. It won't always be the case, however, as the industry progresses towards dropping analog in favor of the digital controls they obviously are going to impose upon us all.

    When that happens, I intend to stoke the fires of hades.
    Whatever doesn't kill me, merely ticks me off. (Never again a Sony consumer.)

  14. Rancid User ron spencer's Avatar
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    @ROF

    Teh simple fact is that everyday the sides go wider apart....only it is the RIAA, MPAA, etc that you see in the news...along with reports on them suing grandmothers, etc. This is NOT a way to run a business....I am glad that you can admit they are treating everyone as a thief.

    Question is...what is worse? The theft is minor. And it is few...if it were lots then the industry would be out of business...they still makes tons of money and if you look at the financials they are swimming in it. I would like to see an empiricle study published in the Journal of Finance (or other like) that shows there is a real statistically significant issue here....I bet there is none.

    So with everyone being told they are a thief they may as well be like one.

    Now that everyone knows what is coming everyone can prepare themselves accordingly...and they will; I know I am.

    The BF issue is small...way small...it is just a bit like macrovision and will be easily "neutered".

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    Originally Posted by ROF

    I do partially support the broadcast flag because I understand the reasoning for it. What I don't like is the way the industry will eventually treat it.
    Well, I no longer suspect you work in the industry. You seem to have an understanding of the issue, though I question the choice of this forum for trying to convince people of your beliefs. It is, after all, a place where people who want to archive video content come to play.

    As far as reading all your posts...Zzzz.

    Ha ha. Anyway, this is exactly why we resist these controls. The more we accept, the more they will take. My understanding of the Betamax case is no where does it say that you must erase the tapes after watching them once (time shifting).

    As far as PVR's, most of them you must pay a monthly fee (unlike VCR's and DVD recorders), and there is a limit as to how much you can record.

    As for your doctor expenses, that is your choice to keep going back. But you are not "renting" the original operation.
    I don't have a bad attitude...
    Life has a bad attitude!

  16. Someone name a show that they recently had trouble with copy protection. I am curious as to whether or not Dish Network would prevent me as well.

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    Originally Posted by leebo
    Well, I no longer suspect you work in the industry.
    Leebo
    Please stop making guess at where ROF works, and how old he/she is. If you think those things matter, just ask. I think it is wrong to assume anything.
    Thanks Mike

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    Leebo
    Please stop making guess at where ROF works, and how old he/she is. If you think those things matter, just ask. I think it is wrong to assume anything.
    Thanks Mike[/quote]

    If I think something matters to me, I wont be asking you. Thanks for the offer though.

    tonemgub, It's not necessarily a particular show that's the problem. Try anything on HBO using a DVD recorder. If you recorder responds to the anti-copy signal, it wont record.
    I don't have a bad attitude...
    Life has a bad attitude!

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    I would never try to convince anyone of anything in an internet forum. Most people who participate in forum discussions are already set in their beliefs and actions. Those who lurk might be different but surely after a few posts you can understand the general position a person has on a certain topic. I doubt anyone could change that using this medium to do so.

    Timeshifting and archiving programming are two distinctly separate actions. I am sure any reasonable person can confer the difference between the two. Simply put, one is fair use, the other isn't.

    If you rent a PVR or rent a programming guide you would be paying a monthly feee for your PVR. I use a home built model as a part of my HTPC. I don't anything to use it.

    The main problem with the broadcast flag is that it's got even less attention than the V-Chip. It may appear in the technological circles or sometimes appear in the news but it is mostly treated as a footnote. I think something must be done to stop people from continuing their casual violations of the law, but I don't think the broadcast flag will be treated properly. I feel it's presence will only continue to grow. As it grows it will begin to effect those who only wish to carry out their fair use rights to watch their daytime soap operas in the evening or Jerry Springer at the dinner table. When this happens it will be too late to take action against the industry. Something must be put into place now which not only protects the intellectual property of the programming but also allows the general public to continue to advance their TV viewing habits.

    I can't seem to say it enough, I really like the idea of the broadcaster being responsible for maintaining my fair use rights to time shift my programming. This would alleviate me from having to purchase a new or larger hard drive every few years and would remove a key piece of equipment that has been cluttering up living rooms and been a headache for the industry for generations.

  20. Member RDS1955's Avatar
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    To ROF:

    Sir:

    Would you kindly explain to me why I'm not allowed to record the transmission today on a PVR vs. when the Supreme Court allowed it via VCR's?...What is the difference between my making a personal copy today on my Panasonic DVR vs. making one 5-6-7 years ago on my VCR?

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    Originally Posted by RDS1955
    To ROF:

    Sir:

    Would you kindly explain to me why I'm not allowed to record the transmission today on a PVR vs. when the Supreme Court allowed it via VCR's?...What is the difference between my making a personal copy today on my Panasonic DVR vs. making one 5-6-7 years ago on my VCR?
    Is the supreme court or any other governmental body taking this privilege away?

    I don't understand your first question.

    The difference is digital.
    Other than that I don't really know what the difference is?
    Anyone?

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    "Now that everyone knows what is coming everyone can prepare themselves accordingly...and they will; I know I am."

    Ron Spencer - How ARE you going to prepare for this? The only reason I ask is because I want to prepare too

    tonemgub - Among the many shows I was unable to record was Miami Ink (TLC), some cooking show (Food Network), Simpsons (reruns on FOX),..... these I specifically remember attempting to record, but as I mentioned before, I ran through my cable line-up and tried recording every channel and not ONE SINGLE CHANNEL would let me.

    BTW,....who's going to pay for TV ads at 2AM when 90% of the population won't be watching, and CANNOT tape whatever show they're running in?

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    Originally Posted by Markenstein
    BTW,....who's going to pay for TV ads at 2AM when 90% of the population won't be watching, and CANNOT tape whatever show they're running in?
    I'd guess the same people who pay for ads at 2AM now? Informationals are popular at that time of the morning. And there's very little on at 2AM (especially on cable channels) that's not also on earlier the day before or later that day. So I don't see much change from the present in that respect.

  24. Originally Posted by leebo
    tonemgub, It's not necessarily a particular show that's the problem. Try anything on HBO using a DVD recorder. If you recorder responds to the anti-copy signal, it wont record.
    The reason I asked about a particular show is that I have never run into a problem recording any show or channel I receive from Dish. HBO, Showtime, TMC, MAX, TCM, etc. has never displayed a broadcast flag. Perhaps a reason to get Dish?

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    Originally Posted by Markenstein

    tonemgub - Among the many shows I was unable to record was Miami Ink (TLC), some cooking show (Food Network), Simpsons (reruns on FOX),..... these I specifically remember attempting to record, but as I mentioned before, I ran through my cable line-up and tried recording every channel and not ONE SINGLE CHANNEL would let me.
    WOW! Who's your provider? My family records rachael ray and iron chef shows on food network all the time and simpsons too. Only Premium channels are copy never. We used to have blackouts due to FCC regulations but those are only on analog cable. We have Time Warner or Comcast Cable here for choice of a cable provider.

  26. Rancid User ron spencer's Avatar
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    How do you prepare? Simple...follow sites like these, doom9, cdfreaks, etc. All info is there...you will see what video cards "bypass" protections, etc. On this site alone just look at all the hacks for DVD players....these will all exist in the future, but you need to make an effort to stay informed. For most they will not...and will be screwed...all you need to do is read, but sadly that skill is disappearing as well.

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    tonemgub, again, you probably are not having this problem due to your DVD Recorder. HBO puts the flag in all their broadcasts, afaik.

    Your DVD recorder is not listening to it.
    I don't have a bad attitude...
    Life has a bad attitude!

  28. Piracy is a real problem for the industry. However, the copy control measures are not about controlling the sort of piracy that affects profits.

    These measures are designed to squeeze the consumer to pay more for essentially the same product.

    The only recourse is to vote with you wallet. Refuse to buy products or services that are crippled with DRM. By DVD players that are zone free (e.g., all players sold in New Zealand and most players in Australia). Or even, go to the library and read a book.

    There is no resolution to this thread. These arguments are fundamentally pointless so this thread is being locked.
    Michael Tam
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