Help: Premiere does not handle mpeg file right

[cheerful]

If my memory serves me right, yes. But I don't use that version any more.

export is not a problem with version 7 and above.

Are you saying you had a problem with the Adobe-Mainconcept MPeg encoder in Version 6.5 ?

[mikiem]

Maybe this will help...

RE: the original question of mpg2 playback:
Most NLE's will allow you to import anything they understand. Sometimes they use their own decoders, sometimes they use other encoders installed on your system. You can (& often will) have problems when codecs clash.

Video file specs, DV, mpg2, mjpeg, mpg4 etc., concern the decoder used for playback, by a player. So you have diferent methods of encoding, and different data retained in the file. If you take a file encoded by program X, & try to decode it for *editing* using codec Y, may or may not work, even though they are the same type of codec (ie. mpg2, mjpeg....).

With mpg2 you have more potential problems because there are more support files involved (splitters etc.), & there is a lot of propriatory stuff. Adobe (in the past at least) altered code they licensed from Mainconcept, which clashes with other code licensed from Mainconcept and altered by another company.

Worse, few video editing apps do well decoding anything besides mjpeg & versions of DV on the timeline. If you use frameserving to something like Prem or Vegas, it works much, MUCH better, even with the lag & other problems involved in going through several apps instead of staying in the NLE. With newer cameras recording to mpg2 etc. one would hope this would change, but over the years it has certainly not seemed to.

Some combination of all that probably accounts for the original post of mpg2 playing back at a different rate, assuming the files were imported with the correct fps & all that. It is also the likely cause if/when mpg2 cannot be imported. It is more of a problem IMO with Prem -- one reason I bought & stayed with Vegas -- at least in the past Adobe's Mainconcept stuff interferred with all the other software I like to use. Adobe also seems to be tightening up with Prem Pro 2 (again IMO), and may cut mpg2 functionality further if you don't separately license the mainconcept stuff (?).
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A lot of discussion has centered around Native file handling. Is big deal, is not big deal :P Video is going to get converted, colorspaces & means of retaining color data is going to be converted somwhere along the line. Is done well, is not done well matters. We try to keep it to a minimum because it lessens the odds of the *not done well* happening. Should probably be shocked over the way Vegas handles YUV vs RGB, but have never seen anyone claim the rendered video was inferior to Prem.

The now infamous :P Mainconcept plugin imitates Womble & Cuttermaran etc. in not re-encoding every frame of mpg2 video. Same is possible with wmv actually, but AFAIK hasn't caught on. It's *native* file handling I guess, but IMO only if the exact same software is used on the original & during editing -- otherwise you've got a glitch there where it was encoded differently. Is it better, is it worse? Yes. I have no problem re-encoding mpg2 content of decent quaality since nowdays it works at about realtime, & if/when the source needs filtering, have to re-encode anyway. But *patching* mpg2 by re-encoding changed frames happens, & if it's what you want to do, Cool.
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As far as charts go, be careful of your source. The job of advertising & marketing is to lie. Seriously. The one chart posted here & all through Adobe's site re: Marketing doesn't mention avi for example. With the Picvid codec & others, file handling is at least as native as DV, but isn't mentioned. Why? Someone in marketing decided that chart told you what they wanted you to know -- that's it.
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That said, spend your money the way ya'll want.

Edit... m2v files are mpg2, are really vob if you want. This was mentioned as well, so a quick mention here too I guess. Many editors have filters built-in, often listed in the registry, matching file extensions and such. In those cases if it doesn't recognize the extension, it's no-go. Other times it's a matter of looking for something in the file. DVDA is the best example I can think of, vastly preferring m2v that has been muxed to mpg without audio. Weakness in the code I imagine.

[mikayd]

greymalkin lets all be cool here man I wrote that half a sleep sorry for my spelling and yes that’s English so shut that crap up its always has to be some dumb ass with an smart mouth ( And Yeah that last part was English ) but I'm am sorry for the bad English I will correct it

[edDV]

Maybe this will help...

RE: the original question of mpg2 playback:
Most NLE's will allow you to import anything they understand. Sometimes they use their own decoders, sometimes they use other encoders installed on your system. You can (& often will) have problems when codecs clash.

Video file specs, DV, mpg2, mjpeg, mpg4 etc., concern the decoder used for playback, by a player. So you have diferent methods of encoding, and different data retained in the file. If you take a file encoded by program X, & try to decode it for *editing* using codec Y, may or may not work, even though they are the same type of codec (ie. mpg2, mjpeg....).

With mpg2 you have more potential problems because there are more support files involved (splitters etc.), & there is a lot of propriatory stuff. Adobe (in the past at least) altered code they licensed from Mainconcept, which clashes with other code licensed from Mainconcept and altered by another company.

Worse, few video editing apps do well decoding anything besides mjpeg & versions of DV on the timeline. If you use frameserving to something like Prem or Vegas, it works much, MUCH better, even with the lag & other problems involved in going through several apps instead of staying in the NLE. With newer cameras recording to mpg2 etc. one would hope this would change, but over the years it has certainly not seemed to.

We have have several traditions and format trends in collision in this thread. The needs of the professional "production" target segment differ significantly from the amateur "repurposing" (formerly consumer only) segment.

The professional production segment is the traditional target for Premiere. The assumption has been you start with a high end acquisition format (Betacam, DVCAM, DVCPro, RGB, or CCIR-601 derived YUV), then you capture or "import" all that plus your production graphics and audio elements to your hard disk (usually a RAID or video server). The capture process often requires specialized hardware. Realtime hardware can replace the internal timeline path in Premiere and work in realtime off the server or RAID.

The capture or import process collects all of these elements into "Bins" (a user interface concept). Premiere includes a selection of decoders that allow you to preview elements in the bins so that you can decide which to use in your production. Selected elements are added one by one to the timeline and in some cases can be viewed without "rendering" or "conforming" to the timeline. Rendering converts all the elements to the native internal RGB (8, 10, 12, 16 bit RGB or YUV in Prem Pro) format supported by Premiere. You can't fully preview or export your timeline without first rendering. This takes CPU time.

Certain software tricks can be used to make the timeline appear to be other than raw RGB or YUV to the user. DV format is handled this way internal to the program. DV is captured to HDD. When elements are added to the timeline and "rendered" all that is done is a pointer is added back to the original DV capture file. DV is decoded to RGB or YUV only when it is filtered or combined with other elements and then only for the frames affected. When it comes to outputting a timeline as a DV export file, those areas of the timeline that were not altered are losslessly copied to the output file. If the timeline is encoded to MPeg2 with the internal Mainconcept MPeg encoder the encoder is working with first generation DV for the unprocessed areas and thus produces superior quality.

When certain hardware replaces the internal timeline path, the same can be done for realtime uncompressed 4:2:2 SMPTE-259M (SD and HD), MJPEG and others. It is also possible for third parties to write software to make other formats behave like DV in Premiere. There is one for HDV, for DVCPro (25, 50, 100) and the one Mainconcept makes for MPeg2. Without the Mainconcept MPeg Pro Plug-in, every frame of imported MPeg2 is decoded to RGB or YUV and re-encoded at export. YUV has less loss since Mpeg uses YUV color space.

Until recently, MPeg2 import was a low priority for Premiere. MPeg2 was mainly supported for export to DVD and then only as a preview of the timeline. V2.0 adds limited DVD menus.

Sony was the first to upset the status quo with the Betacam IMX (MPeg2) format. Then the Blu-Ray XDCAM supported IMX format. Then all I frame MPeg2 editing started catching on. Then HDV became MPeg2 based and on and on. None of these formats are "natively" handled by Premiere Pro, but third parties offer hardware or software solutions in various forms. This may have been a major reason Sony acquired Vegas.

Meanwhile, the "repurposing" consumer was using products like Virtualdub with format decoders/encoders (Codecs) to convert everything to computerish 0-255 RGB*, filter in RGB and output in various formats. The "repurposing" consumer was using low quality source material which was rendered even lower quality by conversion to RGB and re-encoding. So a class of native MPeg editors were developed that used a "smart render" technique similar to the above where input MPeg was copied except where transistions or filters were used. Cuts between I frames were made possible by decoding/reconstructing frames between I frames.

Popularity of DVD camcorders and standalone DVD recorders has caused this MPeg2 "smart render" process to be adoped throughout current generation consumer oriented video editing products (e.g. ULead Video Studio, Vegas Moviestudio ...) but it hasn't widely caught on at the pro level for MPeg2.

Some combination of all that probably accounts for the original post of mpg2 playing back at a different rate, assuming the files were imported with the correct fps & all that. It is also the likely cause if/when mpg2 cannot be imported. It is more of a problem IMO with Prem -- one reason I bought & stayed with Vegas -- at least in the past Adobe's Mainconcept stuff interferred with all the other software I like to use. Adobe also seems to be tightening up with Prem Pro 2 (again IMO), and may cut mpg2 functionality further if you don't separately license the mainconcept stuff (?).
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The "repurposing" customer needs to understand such things are very low priority with high end products. Their customers want a short list of formats to work perfectly and don't care about the rest. Best advice is to externally demux/decode your oddball MPeg or vob to a format that Premiere understands well such as uncompressed YUV, huffyuv or DV.

A lot of discussion has centered around Native file handling. Is big deal, is not big deal :P Video is going to get converted, colorspaces & means of retaining color data is going to be converted somwhere along the line. Is done well, is not done well matters. We try to keep it to a minimum because it lessens the odds of the *not done well* happening. Should probably be shocked over the way Vegas handles YUV vs RGB, but have never seen anyone claim the rendered video was inferior to Prem.

You are reflecting the high end attitude here that MPeg2 is so variable and usually low quality that it doesn't matter if you decode recode again, or they may say if you wanted quality you wouldn't be using MPeg2 or MPeg4 in the first place. It's just a different view of the world.

The post guys may admit that MPeg2 might be acceptable for ENG TV news, but has no place as a production format.

The now infamous :P Mainconcept plugin imitates Womble & Cuttermaran etc. in not re-encoding every frame of mpg2 video. Same is possible with wmv actually, but AFAIK hasn't caught on. It's *native* file handling I guess, but IMO only if the exact same software is used on the original & during editing -- otherwise you've got a glitch there where it was encoded differently. Is it better, is it worse? Yes. I have no problem re-encoding mpg2 content of decent quaality since nowdays it works at about realtime, & if/when the source needs filtering, have to re-encode anyway. But *patching* mpg2 by re-encoding changed frames happens, & if it's what you want to do, Cool.
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The high end guys are very insistant that "their" formats (DV, HDV, DVCPro, SDI, HD-SDI) don't get decoded and are "natively" handled. Premiere Pro was rewritten to be YUV based in order to get these guys on board and this has worked. Vegas has yet to offer native YUV but they will need to if they want to go further up market. Sony's main interest seems to be that it optimizes first for the DV, HDV, IMX, BluRayHD mid market.

Thats right, we look at 25Mb/s BluRay HD as the future Holy Grail. They see it as a highly compressed downgrade of their 440 or 144 Mb/s edit master.

As far as charts go, be careful of your source. The job of advertising & marketing is to lie. Seriously. The one chart posted here & all through Adobe's site re: Marketing doesn't mention avi for example. With the Picvid codec & others, file handling is at least as native as DV, but isn't mentioned. Why? Someone in marketing decided that chart told you what they wanted you to know -- that's it.
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Adobe Premiere advertising is very deceptive to the low-medium level customer. They make it look like a do anything product, when in fact it is a career path and you better be ready for the multi year learning curve.

I'd bet that less than 25% of Premiere Pro installs are used for more than a week. It takes commitment to learn this program.


* 0-255 vs 16-235 RGB/YUV processing separates the communities. I may dig into this later.

[pijetro]

On a side note.........

I downloaded the trial, and am only half impressed....

Background:
Imported a CCE encoded video stream (8500 CBR)
Imported the corresponding 48khz .WAV file.

Workspace:
Everything looked promising. Import of .M2V file was quick.
Timeline overlay was seamless..
No indication of red line (for rendering purposes)..
Playback was realtime.
Transitions rendered fairly quick.

Export:
Here my beef...
No matter how you slice it, seems like rerendering occurs anyways..
Quality of output isn't an issue.
Time of render is an issue..I was hoping for a stream copy, much like saving out an .AVI that is the same as the project setting...Quick and painless..

Any biters out there??

[edDV]

Every frame of MPeg is always decoded and re-encoded that is what we've been arguing about.

[cheerful]

Does the MainConcept plugin avoid re-encodiing?

Every frame of MPeg is always decoded and re-encoded that is what we've been arguing about.

[edDV]

Does the MainConcept plugin avoid re-encodiing?

Every frame of MPeg is always decoded and re-encoded that is what we've been arguing about.

Yes for those areas not filtered. It is all spelled out here.
http://www.mainconcept.com/mpeg_pro.shtml

[cheerful]

One more question: do I need to use MainConcept encoder to export the video? Or somehow the Adobe Media Encoder will work with MainConcept plugin? Thanks!

Does the MainConcept plugin avoid re-encodiing?

Every frame of MPeg is always decoded and re-encoded that is what we've been arguing about.

Yes for those areas not filtered. It is all spelled out here.
http://www.mainconcept.com/mpeg_pro.shtml

[edDV]

One more question: do I need to use MainConcept encoder to export the video? Or somehow the Adobe Media Encoder will work with MainConcept plugin? Thanks!

Does the MainConcept plugin avoid re-encodiing?

Every frame of MPeg is always decoded and re-encoded that is what we've been arguing about.

Yes for those areas not filtered. It is all spelled out here.
http://www.mainconcept.com/mpeg_pro.shtml

Only the areas filtered would be re-encoded. I would think those frames must use the Mainconcept MPeg2 encoder but better to ask in their support forum. Remember they are on German time.

http://forum.mainconcept.com/viewforum.php?f=35&sid=beb54f683fde0c4d3dcc46879fafa0fa

[pijetro]

Eddv wrote:

Every frame of MPeg is always decoded and re-encoded that is what we've been arguing about.

I wasn't making any stances on the issues of decoding and reencoding..
I simply stated that i tried out the Mainconcept plugin, and wanted to give some feedback to the original posting..

Does anybody remember that??

cheerful wrote:

One more question: do I need to use MainConcept encoder to export the video? Or somehow the Adobe Media Encoder will work with MainConcept plugin? Thanks!

This is my result...

The plugin, is primarily an encoder. Whatever Mpeg you drop onto the timeline, you will get rendering at their template settings. No matter how close you make it to the source file properties. Painfully slow (for me anyways :P ).

To avoid rendering, there's a mode that does "Smart rendering", which is Mainconcepts way of saying "don't re-encode".
You have to dig into the advanced settings, and tell the plugin to take the same properties as the source file. VERY IMPORTANT. Quite easy once you do it correctly..
The "smart render" as they call it, goes lightning fast..

I can't argue with edDV (i'm not in the same league)..
And yes, it would seem that there's compression, and decompression happening, but the plugin helps things go much faster in either case, and i can't notice a quality difference...
This is a good layman's tool, once you get over the initial hurdle. Perfect for somebody wanting to lift, or overlay sample clips of Mpeg2 video files.

Pitfalls...
No .AC3 support, so you'd have to learn to decode to .WAV format..
I'll assume DVD2AVI should do a decent job, or a decent .AC3 to .WAV proggie of some sort..
At the end of a saveout, i get booted out of Premiere..
An .M2V with 8500kbps (high bitrate) doesn't get accepted, since the muxing level would be too high. Strangely enough, it keeps insisting that i need to use uncompressed audio bitrate..There's probably a workaround, but haven't fiddled enough.
Too much money for what it does..



Good news..
The watermark is small, and much of it lays outside the "action safe" zone..
Fast "smart rendering"..

[edDV]

Eddv wrote:

Every frame of MPeg is always decoded and re-encoded that is what we've been arguing about.

I wasn't making any stances on the issues of decoding and reencoding..
I simply stated that i tried out the Mainconcept plugin, and wanted to give some feedback to the original posting..

Does anybody remember that??

Sorry, I thought you were talking about the Premiere Pro v2 trial, not the Mainconcept Pro plug-in.

And yes, it would seem that there's compression, and decompression happening, but the plugin helps things go much faster in either case, and i can't notice a quality difference...
This is a good layman's tool, once you get over the initial hurdle. Perfect for somebody wanting to lift, or overlay sample clips of Mpeg2 video files.

Compression and decompression should be happening only in those "render needed" areas.

Pitfalls...
No .AC3 support, so you'd have to learn to decode to .WAV format..
I'll assume DVD2AVI should do a decent job, or a decent .AC3 to .WAV proggie of some sort..
At the end of a saveout, i get booted out of Premiere..
An .M2V with 8500kbps (high bitrate) doesn't get accepted, since the muxing level would be too high. Strangely enough, it keeps insisting that i need to use uncompressed audio bitrate..There's probably a workaround, but haven't fiddled enough.
Too much money for what it does..

Good news..
The watermark is small, and much of it lays outside the "action safe" zone..
Fast "smart rendering"..

This is more culture clash. The MPeg2 that production guys see usually comes with uncompressed audio or separate audio. They would rarely see AC-3 as an input unless they were "working" late night or weekends.

[pijetro]

Quite alright edDV...

On a side note, there's a local store that does VHS to DVD transfers..
Some customers require editing, which nobody else wants to touch. I would like to take that off their hands, but one way or the other, i would receive a completed DVD disk to use as a jumping point. A stupid way to do things, but at $10 a transfer, these "copy crap houses" are killing an artform.

The Mainconcept plugin would be a great tool, but as far as cutting DVD formated Mpeg's go, this is where MpegVCR would be a better choice IMHO..

[pijetro]

This is more culture clash.

Definately..
You'll notice that this site is the freeware haven, and professionals are usually using proprietary systems/setups..

I thought i knew everything, until somebody like you came about. Using words like "Betacam, DVCAM, DVCPro"..
Shame on you... :P :P

Although i'm definately interested....

[mikiem]

"You'll notice that this site is the freeware haven, and professionals are usually using proprietary systems/setups.. "

Actually not always. look at the tools a chef or mechanic or carpenter really uses. V/dub & Avisynth enjoy a pretty respectable following.

"No .AC3 support, so you'd have to learn to decode to .WAV format.. "
Graphedit is an easy means if nothing else, and several prog. to convert. DGIndex (DVD2AVI replacement) does it, but in my experience, graphedit is better using cyberlink filters if you've bought/installed PowerDVD. Nothing will realy edit them, other then play with file structure, but then, you'll not encounter ac3 unless you have already authored material.

"An .M2V with 8500kbps (high bitrate) doesn't get accepted,"
Try DVD Patcher on 1st header before import.

"This is more culture clash."
Not at all. At least for my part I'm multi-cultural.


@ eddv -- Sorry to upset you so... no offense intended, really.

The purpose of my post was to try and account for mpg2 performance problems on the timeline based on personal experiences. It may or may not help, may or may not work, but is accurate based on the results of hands-on solving of similar problems, as in: "Worked for me". The handling of mpg2 codec related files in windows is poor, handling of many file formats in many NLEs is poor. Such is life.

Also tried to say for most folks, take a lot of this native file format stuff with a grain of salt -- it's a part of someone wanting to take your money, & may or may not be worth it to you. Colorspace conversions are not evil, are not mysterious, is a relatively simple matter of mathematics, & maybe feared a bit too much because of all the times it's not done well, or maybe because it's associated with encoding & the resultant qual hit. Better not to, yes, end of life on earth, no. Without encoding it happens perhaps a lot more then folks realize from the time the light enters the camera lens.

Not entirely sure what the gist of your large post in reply was/is frankly. I find:"The "repurposing" customer" interesting. :P Guess if you have a pickup truck but aren't a contractor fit in there too. Hey, I just bought a Kitchenaid mixer just like on "Emeril Live" -- I mix flour just like on his show, but I guess I'm repurposing because I'm not a pro chef? OTOH, a pro does what works, in any field. Lots of pros use v/dub & avisynth & all sorts of inferior software.

"I'd bet that less than 25% of Premiere Pro installs are used for more than a week. It takes commitment to learn this program."

Sounds like the Wordperfect approach to design to me. Remember 5.1? If not, they had a zillion shortcuts their customers memorized, & rather then update the program, they banked on their loyal users wanting to preserve that investment -- IOW, they had so much invested they'd never switch. Guess what?

Premiere is a consumer to midrange product, if those terms even mean anything anymore. In many cases the dedicated media pro just isn't in the budget, as savvy (hate that word) biz users take over by necessity. Since the early 90's Adobe (& some fans ) tended towards a bit of elitism that had the net effect of shooting themselves in the foot. Lots of pre & post press folks went under fully subscribing to this elitism. Had the same sort of discussions with a lot of folks when Adobe bought out Aldus, & then ignored the upcoming publishing trends. Many in pre/post press went out of biz rather then change. Adobe is trying to compete with their element line, but p/shop doesn't have the same ranking, recognition, or most important, retail shelf space it used to.

At any rate, Adobe does what Adobe does (have they ever gotten around to file open/save icons in P/Shop?). Frankly there are a lot of things I could care less about, and they all rank above what whomever decides is a priority for their product design. If it's useful, I might buy it & Bit__ -- if not, I won't buy it and could care even less. That's the neat thing about market economies -- someone else (like maybe Womble) can profit from stuff others ignore. The reality is consumers rule.

"needs to understand such things are very low priority with high end products"
Noooooooo... The publisher Needs to understand what I want if they want MY money.

"You are reflecting the high end attitude here that MPeg2 is so variable and usually low quality that it doesn't matter if you decode recode again, or they may say if you wanted quality you wouldn't be using MPeg2 or MPeg4 in the first place... The post guys may admit that MPeg2 might be acceptable for ENG TV news, but has no place as a production format."

Really! Check Adam Wilt's site re: mpg2. Check the Microsoft proposed wmv edit chain. Check the wmv theater releases. Check the mpg2 cameras, & I don't mean just Sony or consumer level. That's just so out there can't frame a proper response. Guess the best thing to say is perhaps some folks (mistakenly) think that mpg2 is always low bitrate, or mp4 varieties for that matter. What is the difference encoding DVD bitrate mpg2 down from mjpeg, DV, or mpg2, all of similar original bandwidth? Is there some sin involved if mpg2?

Google a bit & seems from what I'm reading, DVB is here, HDTV will be mainstreamed, and no one is sure what the future will bring, how to upgrade their facilities with budgets. This includes video storage systems, as well as shooting formats, where varieties of DV will hang on for run and gun I'd imagine, though for remote remotes mpg2 or better yet mp4 makes a lot of sense when transfering via sat. PCs are small enough that in the future I could see someone in the Mid-East using an external encoder from the camera feed in real time, reducing camera size, increasing safety, and allowing Much faster transmission.

Native YUV to me is a bit misleading. The nature of YUV is it was a way to compress the amount of data transmitted broadcast. They still sell floppy drives and disks, & they still use original YUV, but the same question applies - why? & I have to confess I ask myself the same question as I use both too. Otherwise it's data storage. I'm going to measure a book -- does the book change shape or dimensions if I use a ruler with inches or centimeters? Does converting from inches to centimeters tear a hole in the universe?

" 0-255 vs 16-235 RGB/YUV processing separates the communities"

Not really. Color range doesn't reflect YUV -- it reflects the original broadcast using YUV in the US to compress data in the 50's. I don't think there's a real RGB anything at the moment because most data storage formats for video use a YUV model (to build on what's there), that mathematically converts and is routed to display. Eventually I imagine the YUV part might morph into something else or not, depending on what the developers find convenient & profitable (& don't think the standards have nothing to do with profit).

In fact color range is probably on the verge of dissapearing with the arrival of dvb. Most DVDs I've seen already don't bother with strict specs, players certainly don't, the reasons for it -- reserving portions of the broadcast signal for other data -- will not exist. It's a dinasaur. If it's a prob. on some TVs readjusting to super black for instance, once the signal conforms to broader range, it will be correct & no longer need to readjust.

Finally, I'm far from expert on mpg2 or mpg4, but, copying content copies content, as in V/Dub direct stream copy, as in transferring DV via firewire. Cutting one of these formats, even if all I frame, usually involves copying up to that point -- no encoding, no conversions. Same as with std mjpeg avi files, where this was status quo since at least Ulead's 1.5 version I think of Media Studio Pro. Womble I think was first in saying why not apply mjpeg avi handling to mpg2, re-encoding altered fields/frames only. From what I can tell that's what an MC plugin does in prem. Cool.

Either way however, need to realize that there is quite a bit about encoder *a* that might be totally different from encoder *b*. You're inserting a patch where the video file's been cut, and sticking the output from another encoder in there. I could see where it might not match if the patch was for a long enough period of time.

[edDV]

"This is more culture clash."
Not at all. At least for my part I'm multi-cultural.

@ eddv -- Sorry to upset you so... no offense intended, really.

The purpose of my post was to try and account for mpg2 performance problems on the timeline based on personal experiences. It may or may not help, may or may not work, but is accurate based on the results of hands-on solving of similar problems, as in: "Worked for me". The handling of mpg2 codec related files in windows is poor, handling of many file formats in many NLEs is poor. Such is life.

I'm "multicultural" too. I live in both production and "repurposing" worlds plus others (broadcast transmission, manufacturing, ...)

I'm trying to point out the different application context for a product like Premiere Pro vs Virtualdub vs AviSynth (extreme Greek, low productivity).

Also tried to say for most folks, take a lot of this native file format stuff with a grain of salt -- it's a part of someone wanting to take your money, & may or may not be worth it to you. Colorspace conversions are not evil, are not mysterious, is a relatively simple matter of mathematics, & maybe feared a bit too much because of all the times it's not done well, or maybe because it's associated with encoding & the resultant qual hit. Better not to, yes, end of life on earth, no. Without encoding it happens perhaps a lot more then folks realize from the time the light enters the camera lens.

Very true. For highest quality, every link in the chain must be done correctly.

Not entirely sure what the gist of your large post in reply was/is frankly. I find:"The "repurposing" customer" interesting. :P Guess if you have a pickup truck but aren't a contractor fit in there too. Hey, I just bought a Kitchenaid mixer just like on "Emeril Live" -- I mix flour just like on his show, but I guess I'm repurposing because I'm not a pro chef? OTOH, a pro does what works, in any field. Lots of pros use v/dub & avisynth & all sorts of inferior software.

Good analogies. Those who bought the Hummer 1 (Premiere Pro?) quickly got rid off them because although they were "pro" they weren't good daily freeway rides into town. The Hummer 2 (Premiere Elements or Video Studio?) was a roadworthy Suburban made to look like a Hummer.

Emeril works from the finest raw ingredients (film or HD) and adds creative chef skills to make a world class meal (a production master). A "repurposing chef" would use the Kitchenaid mixer (virtualdub) to make meatloaf or stew out of yesterdays leftovers (captures).

"I'd bet that less than 25% of Premiere Pro installs are used for more than a week. It takes commitment to learn this program."

Sounds like the Wordperfect approach to design to me. Remember 5.1? If not, they had a zillion shortcuts their customers memorized, & rather then update the program, they banked on their loyal users wanting to preserve that investment -- IOW, they had so much invested they'd never switch. Guess what?

Premiere is a consumer to midrange product, if those terms even mean anything anymore. In many cases the dedicated media pro just isn't in the budget, as savvy (hate that word) biz users take over by necessity. Since the early 90's Adobe (& some fans ) tended towards a bit of elitism that had the net effect of shooting themselves in the foot. Lots of pre & post press folks went under fully subscribing to this elitism. Had the same sort of discussions with a lot of folks when Adobe bought out Aldus, & then ignored the upcoming publishing trends. Many in pre/post press went out of biz rather then change. Adobe is trying to compete with their element line, but p/shop doesn't have the same ranking, recognition, or most important, retail shelf space it used to.

At any rate, Adobe does what Adobe does (have they ever gotten around to file open/save icons in P/Shop?). Frankly there are a lot of things I could care less about, and they all rank above what whomever decides is a priority for their product design. If it's useful, I might buy it & Bit__ -- if not, I won't buy it and could care even less. That's the neat thing about market economies -- someone else (like maybe Womble) can profit from stuff others ignore. The reality is consumers rule.

I couldn't agree more. The world has mostly passed by Premiere. The field needed reinvention and the reinvention products are Final Cut Pro and Vegas. Those will last for awhile until the next new thing will hit that obsoletes them.

For the guy that wants to edit his DVD camcorder or DVD recorder material, Womble makes much more sense than Premiere Pro.

"needs to understand such things are very low priority with high end products"
Noooooooo... The publisher Needs to understand what I want if they want MY money.

"You are reflecting the high end attitude here that MPeg2 is so variable and usually low quality that it doesn't matter if you decode recode again, or they may say if you wanted quality you wouldn't be using MPeg2 or MPeg4 in the first place... The post guys may admit that MPeg2 might be acceptable for ENG TV news, but has no place as a production format."

Really! Check Adam Wilt's site re: mpg2. Check the Microsoft proposed wmv edit chain. Check the wmv theater releases. Check the mpg2 cameras, & I don't mean just Sony or consumer level. That's just so out there can't frame a proper response. Guess the best thing to say is perhaps some folks (mistakenly) think that mpg2 is always low bitrate, or mp4 varieties for that matter. What is the difference encoding DVD bitrate mpg2 down from mjpeg, DV, or mpg2, all of similar original bandwidth? Is there some sin involved if mpg2?

I was reflecting "their" attitudes not mine and it is that mentality that Premiere Pro must serve. New formats take a long time to establish at the high end. The scouts get the arrows.

I've said this before re: the culture clash. We look to BluRay 25Mb/s HD MPeg2 as the Holy Grail production format for 3 years out. They look at BluRay HD as a highly compressed distribution copy of their pristine 440Mb/s HDCAM SR or 144Mb/s HDCAM edit master... or, the way we would look at divx, xvid or wmv.

The people buying Vegas will adapt much quicker to the new formats and that is why Sony acquired Vegas.

Google a bit & seems from what I'm reading, DVB is here, HDTV will be mainstreamed, and no one is sure what the future will bring, how to upgrade their facilities with budgets. This includes video storage systems, as well as shooting formats, where varieties of DV will hang on for run and gun I'd imagine, though for remote remotes mpg2 or better yet mp4 makes a lot of sense when transfering via sat. PCs are small enough that in the future I could see someone in the Mid-East using an external encoder from the camera feed in real time, reducing camera size, increasing safety, and allowing Much faster transmission.

Native YUV to me is a bit misleading. The nature of YUV is it was a way to compress the amount of data transmitted broadcast. They still sell floppy drives and disks, & they still use original YUV, but the same question applies - why? & I have to confess I ask myself the same question as I use both too. Otherwise it's data storage. I'm going to measure a book -- does the book change shape or dimensions if I use a ruler with inches or centimeters? Does converting from inches to centimeters tear a hole in the universe?

YUV was chosen because it matches the eye's response. The eye sees detail in luminance but much less in chrominance. This allows more bandwidth or bitrate to be concentrated in luminance. YUV was chosen for NTSC and PAL and was chosen again for CCIR-601 (1984) and all the derived digital distribution/broadcast formats (e.g. DV, DVD, MPeg2, MPeg4, ATSC, DVB, and on).

RGB is still used for high end acquisition (Film digital intermediate transfers and HDCAM-SR) not because the eye sees better quality, but because computer filters see and use all the RGB bandwidth for filter/effects processing. However the material is quickly converted to YUV for the final edit.

" 0-255 vs 16-235 RGB/YUV processing separates the communities"

Not really. Color range doesn't reflect YUV -- it reflects the original broadcast using YUV in the US to compress data in the 50's. I don't think there's a real RGB anything at the moment because most data storage formats for video use a YUV model (to build on what's there), that mathematically converts and is routed to display. Eventually I imagine the YUV part might morph into something else or not, depending on what the developers find convenient & profitable (& don't think the standards have nothing to do with profit).

In fact color range is probably on the verge of dissapearing with the arrival of dvb. Most DVDs I've seen already don't bother with strict specs, players certainly don't, the reasons for it -- reserving portions of the broadcast signal for other data -- will not exist. It's a dinasaur. If it's a prob. on some TVs readjusting to super black for instance, once the signal conforms to broader range, it will be correct & no longer need to readjust.

The broadcast world long ago converted to 16-235 YUV (64-940 YUV for 10bit). The problem has been the computer geeks were only taught about 8bit 1024x1024 RGB frame buffers in computer sci classes and designed all NLE's and processing software to RGB space. Until the late 90's, little NLE material reached the online edit (other than animation) so it wasn't a problem. Today it is a major issue getting the computer world to convert to YUV color space. ATI and Nvidia have done it. AVID and Premiere were forced to make the jump. Vegas and others will have to do it.

Finally, I'm far from expert on mpg2 or mpg4, but, copying content copies content, as in V/Dub direct stream copy, as in transferring DV via firewire. Cutting one of these formats, even if all I frame, usually involves copying up to that point -- no encoding, no conversions. Same as with std mjpeg avi files, where this was status quo since at least Ulead's 1.5 version I think of Media Studio Pro. Womble I think was first in saying why not apply mjpeg avi handling to mpg2, re-encoding altered fields/frames only. From what I can tell that's what an MC plugin does in prem. Cool.

That is it in a nutshell. Standard Premiere decompresses every frame of MPeg2 to uncompressed RGB or YUV and then re-encodes at the output.

Either way however, need to realize that there is quite a bit about encoder *a* that might be totally different from encoder *b*. You're inserting a patch where the video file's been cut, and sticking the output from another encoder in there. I could see where it might not match if the patch was for a long enough period of time.

I agree, but that is what all the color correction filters are for.