Sony Vegas vs. AVID

[tarrickb]

Hello all.
I have been using sony vegas for about 2 years now and consider myself quite experienced in it.
I am however wondering what Avid Xpress can offer me over Sony Vegas??
I'm willing to learn and invest in Avid, but am just wondering what I can gain from it.

About what I do:
Edit DV files to make a video mix DVD. Use alot of transitions and end up encoding the project to MPEG-2 (to burn to DVD).

Thank you reading and I'm sure your responses will be useful.
THANK YOU!

[edDV]

Hello all.
I have been using sony vegas for about 2 years now and consider myself quite experienced in it.
I am however wondering what Avid Xpress can offer me over Sony Vegas??
I'm willing to learn and invest in Avid, but am just wondering what I can gain from it.

About what I do:
Edit DV files to make a video mix DVD. Use alot of transitions and end up encoding the project to MPEG-2 (to burn to DVD).

Thank you reading and I'm sure your responses will be useful.
THANK YOU!

You will find AVID to be a much greater system administration headache and it is fussy about coexisting with other hardware/software. A typical AVID installation is to a dedicated stripped down workstation. Things may have improved but that was my experience ~2 years ago.

Sony Vegas is very forgiving in a home computer environment.

Get an AVID Xpress demo CD before you buy it and give it a spin.

[aedipuss]

if you are migrating to high def with cams like the new sony hdr's, the express pro hd version might come in handy. steep learning curve though.

[pizzamandk]

AFAIK, Vegas 6.0b can also work with HD. However, I have the impression that Final Cut Pro and Adobe AE are hot, while Vegas is not for the pro scene.

[Sillyname]

AFAIK, Vegas 6.0b can also work with HD. However, I have the impression that Final Cut Pro and Adobe AE are hot, while Vegas is not for the pro scene.

wrong

[guns1inger]

AE isn't an editor

[aedipuss]

maybe i'm wrong, i haven't used vegas in awhile. i thought it couldn't use 1080 and/or 720 and dv natively in the same time line without transcoding.

[zoobie]

i also thought the pros used vegas and the like....i was corrected in another forum...the pros use avid or fcp almost exclusively on a dedicated system...they didn't know anyone using vegas or similar

[tarrickb]

So you guys are sayin that pros use Avid first, FCP second and Vegas last?
As a user of Vegas who gave FCP a good chance but reverted to Vegas, I don't understand where the respect is for Sony Vegas.
Seems like its at the bottom of most people's list.

[zoobie]

well, my understanding was that casual home editing of hand-held home video shot with comsumer-type cameras and edited on a multi-use computer the kids play games on is not considered pro...so easy programs like vegas and msp are more suitable and compatible for this type of user

they did mention adobe as a distant 3rd if that helps

we may not be pros but with very little money can get pretty close to pro results which is fine with me

[guns1inger]

Avid is big because it has a huge support structure. It is used for film, for news editing etc. because it supports huge amounts of data, different formats, multiple editors etc. For professional setups it mostly runs on didicated or proprietry hardware. It is simply a different league to desktop editors.

FCP I consider to be just another desktop editor like Vegas or PP. It's only cache is that it runs only on the Apple Mac, which to me is an indication that it is a)primarily form over function (all Macs are), and b) grossly over-rated (see previous point). But that doesn't change the fact that Apple can run ads saying Steven Soderberg editied his last film in FCP.

Name the last major director to edit in Vegas or Premiere Pro for major release.

[zoobie]

You know how they shoot video now with the film to instantly see if they 'got it'? Maybe that's all he did. The film cutter then simply followed his video cuts.

These days, it could mean anything...If his daughter clicked his mouse along the way, they could then say 'so easy, even my daughter helped edit this golden globe award winner'

[Sillyname]

i also thought the pros used vegas and the like....i was corrected in another forum...the pros use avid or fcp almost exclusively on a dedicated system...they didn't know anyone using vegas or similar

www.dvinfo.net

Douglas Spotted Eagle will have your scalp for saying Vegas is not pro-worthy.

[zoobie]

ha ha
I'm just reporting what happened
If the OP is happy with results from vegas, why spend another 2 years learning another similar program all over again with little improvement?

[Sillyname]

ha ha
I'm just reporting what happened
If the OP is happy with results from vegas, why spend another 2 years learning another similar program all over again with little improvement?

If you plan on sitting at a workstation in an office environment, then you need to learn EXPENSIVE software.

If you hand off your finished work to one of these companies, you can use anything.

[edDV]

You guys need to better understand the "pro" editing world.

Specialist pro's use hardware and software you never heard of.

The film and episodic TV world drifted slowly to AVID for offline (took 10yrs), now it is mainstream for high infrastructure long form editing. Most of this is 35 or 70mm film transfers being editied for theater or broadcast HDTV presentation.

A second segment AVID are now strong is "story" and "light documentary" news magazine style editing. This segement was 100% film and is now video. Examples include most of cable and news magazine features.

Adobe Premiere has equaly long roots in the corporate "Multimedia" world and has a full suite of products that will "repurpose" your agency produced elements for advertising, brochures, large group presentations, promo video, product training and other large scale marketing projects.

In the late 90's, Apple saw the "multimedia" market (including Photoshop) leaving the Apple platform in droves for the faster cheaper Windows platform. They decided to go into direct competition with Adobe Premiere focusing on the generic-freelance post production video editing market. Adobe responded by dropping support for the MAC and going 100% XP/DirectShow Windows for Premiere Pro. This fit the needs of their typical corporate customer.

The typical FCP pro user is an individual contractor hired for generic skills by post houses and ad agencies. In the upper tiers of ad agencies Apple wants FCP to displace the high status AVID position. In Apple's case, it's image first, product reality second.

Meanwhile there has been another group of smaller post houses (local markets), smaller TV stations and corporate/govt focused folks forced to make do with sub million dollar budgets.

This is the group that has exploded since the late 90's as the MAC/PC platforms have become fast enough to produce fininshed video projects. The enabler for this group has not been the computer, it has been the emergence of DV prosumer video equipment that brought "broadcast quality" to the little guy for video acquisition and storage. Add to this the emergence of DVD as a distribution standard. The PC/MAC platform advances allowed a full solution for low budget video.

Adobe got a chunk of this market by default because of their position. ULead and Matrox had been long positioned in the market but were battered from peaking there too early. Apple FCP talked about this market but only offered solutions that were out of budget or incomplete for the "little guy". AVID tried to come downmarket with XpressDV but who was going to do the system adminitration? The videographer didn't have a staff or skills.

Enter Sonic Foundry with Vegas as the video extension of the very popular SoundForge audio production and CD Architect authoring programs. Sonic Foundry had always focused on this "one-man-band" small business kind of user with their successfull audio products and they timed the introduction of Vegas perfectly. They mapped directly to the booming DV format video revolution.

Vegas 4 was getting it right but Sonic Foundry was stretched without a partner. Sony wanted to expand the market for their Prosumer DV and DVCAM products*. Sony was also developing HDV to extend HDTV down into the corporate presentation, local TV station and event videography markets. They acquired the Vegas, DVD Architect, SoundForge and Acid lines from Sonic Foundry including all the people. Sony also set a second goal to extend DV + HDV into the consumer markets and created consumer versions of the various products. This started before the acquisition with consumer versions of Soundforge, "movieStudio" and Acid.

So, currently Vegas owns (#1 by far) the independent little guy "one-man-band" market (FCP #2, Premiere #3). Sites that cater to this market include http://www.digitalvideoediting.com/ , http://www.eventdv.net/Newsletters/Default.aspx plus others.

Adobe is #1 in the corp and multimedia agency space. FCP is strong for the low-pro freelancers and Avid is defending their position in the Hollywood infrastructure, but opened a new front by acquiring Pinnacle.

IMO AVID is retreating at the top and needs a new story. Ive skipped over many other companies that are strong at the high end. Don't assume AVID owns it all, far from it.


* This was made more important to Sony because Panasonic was dramatically winning market share at the higher end DVCPro Newsgathering business against Sony's DVCAM. Sony was loosing big time because their previously dominant analog Betacam products were being replaced with Panasonic DVCPro.

[zoobie]

interesting history there

you learn something new every day

[Marvingj]

The Xpress version of the software comes in a variety of different configurations. There’s even a self-explanatory HD version. With such an impressive lineage, you might think that this product would be the finely-tuned velociraptor of the editing industry. Well, you’d be wrong my friend.
The software plagued with numerous bugs and faults which are both frustrating and - I’m going to say it - seemingly typical of an Avid product. This is even true for systems using Avid’s recommended specifications and configurations. Try to work with a dual monitor set-up, for example, and you’ll find a multitude of things that go wrong. You’ll no doubt have to make several attempts to capture material from tape, as you try different approaches that each fail for a different reason. In addition, there is a list of known hardware and software conflicts, and rather than try to actually address the problems, the Avid support team seems to be content on just adding things to the list until they’ve narrowed down the working configuration to a single system, probably the one used for demonstration purposes on the pinewood lot. The only thing that provides any form of comfort to me when things break in an Avid system is when I read similar or worse experiences of other users on Avid’s own support forums .......

[edDV]

The Xpress version of the software comes in a variety of different configurations. There’s even a self-explanatory HD version. With such an impressive lineage, you might think that this product would be the finely-tuned velociraptor of the editing industry. Well, you’d be wrong my friend.
The software plagued with numerous bugs and faults which are both frustrating and - I’m going to say it - seemingly typical of an Avid product. This is even true for systems using Avid’s recommended specifications and configurations. Try to work with a dual monitor set-up, for example, and you’ll find a multitude of things that go wrong. You’ll no doubt have to make several attempts to capture material from tape, as you try different approaches that each fail for a different reason. In addition, there is a list of known hardware and software conflicts, and rather than try to actually address the problems, the Avid support team seems to be content on just adding things to the list until they’ve narrowed down the working configuration to a single system, probably the one used for demonstration purposes on the pinewood lot. The only thing that provides any form of comfort to me when things break in an Avid system is when I read similar or worse experiences of other users on Avid’s own support forums .......

That sounds harsh but matches my experience. 10% editing 90% talking to tech support.

[mrtunes]

You guys need to better understand the "pro" editing world.

Great post. I'd like to add a small tidbit of info for people that Avid vs. FCP represents a larger battle that is (or was) Mac VS. PC. Avid is owned by Intel, so up until recently when Macs started shipping with Intel chips the war for editing supremacy had undertones of the war that was going on in the larger computer world.

Also interesting how AVID requires a tight system setup so does its child program Pro Tools(which also dominates the sound editing and pro recording world). Avid now also owns M-Audio, a company that makes great budget audio gear. In the year 2006 Avid seems to be dominating a large share of the multimedia market.

As far as sound editing in these editors are concerned, I think it's amazing how great sound is implemented in Vegas. That should not be overlooked if you are a one-man(or woman) production who has no budget for sound editing. I've tried doing sound in FCP and Premiere and I think it's a horrid place to do that type of editing. Never tried it in Avid though but i'm sure it's good with their ownership of the Pro Tools code.

[Sillyname]

You guys need to better understand the "pro" editing world.

Great post. I'd like to add a small tidbit of info for people that Avid vs. FCP represents a larger battle that is (or was) Mac VS. PC. Avid is owned by Intel, so up until recently when Macs started shipping with Intel chips the war for editing supremacy had undertones of the war that was going on in the larger computer world.

Also interesting how AVID requires a tight system setup so does its child program Pro Tools(which also dominates the sound editing and pro recording world). Avid now also owns M-Audio, a company that makes great budget audio gear. In the year 2006 Avid seems to be dominating a large share of the multimedia market.

As far as sound editing in these editors are concerned, I think it's amazing how great sound is implemented in Vegas. That should not be overlooked if you are a one-man(or woman) production who has no budget for sound editing. I've tried doing sound in FCP and Premiere and I think it's a horrid place to do that type of editing. Never tried it in Avid though but i'm sure it's good with their ownership of the Pro Tools code.

Have you tried Adobe Audition, formerly Cool Edit Pro?
They've enabled ASIO now. Though you have to activate the software, the EULA says you can activate it twice, that way you can have it on a DAW and a laptop for field recording.

[mrtunes]

Have you tried Adobe Audition, formerly Cool Edit Pro?
They've enabled ASIO now. Though you have to activate the software, the EULA says you can activate it twice, that way you can have it on a DAW and a laptop for field recording.

Yes I know the program and it has been getting rave reviews by its users. Apple also has a specialty sound editor Soundtrack Pro... pretty amazing that both these editors support Timecode yet Pro Tools LE requires a $1000 extra package for a simple sync display.

But to my knowledge both Adobe and Apple still don't have any of those great audio technologies integrated into video editing like Vegas does. In all fairness to them it's a great way to make more money and serve customers better at the same time - a video editor who wants to expand the audio capability spends more for it and the audio editor is spared video editing tools that are of no use to them.

I'm sorry to pull the discussion over into my realm, but it is important to talk about audio in your video editing packages. I've had many film makers complain to me that they aren't very productive editing their soundtracks in FCP, Premiere, even one guy with Avid but probably wouldn't hear them say that about Vegas.

[dun4cheap]

You may want to check in to Avid Liquid Edition 7 (Formerly Pinnacle LE) as well. I am not sure why this was not even mentioned, but it is definately one to check.

[edDV]

You may want to check in to Avid Liquid Edition 7 (Formerly Pinnacle LE) as well. I am not sure why this was not even mentioned, but it is definately one to check.

Pinnacle Liquid is also targeted into the small business individual and small TV station space. In the past it was mostly a hardware company (as this level) and relied on Adobe Premiere for edit software. Liquid was Pinnacles acquisition entry into this mid range market (product was formerly known as FAST's Studio XL). Its main avantages come from bundled acceleration hardware.

A similar product is the Canopus Edius/DV Storm Workstation family.

[SeagullPix]

I don't know if you guys will see this, but I was wondering how the situation has changed in the last few years? I'm wondering if these days Avid is any more worth switching to from Vegas. I'm currently in the same situation as the original poster, having used Vegas for the past two years, and involved in the "one man band" sort of work, but if I plan on advancing to more professional work in the future, is it worth it to switch to Avid now? (I'm talking more than a few years in the future).

[edDV]

I don't know if you guys will see this, but I was wondering how the situation has changed in the last few years? I'm wondering if these days Avid is any more worth switching to from Vegas. I'm currently in the same situation as the original poster, having used Vegas for the past two years, and involved in the "one man band" sort of work, but if I plan on advancing to more professional work in the future, is it worth it to switch to Avid now? (I'm talking more than a few years in the future).

Depends on your goals. Classic AVID software still rules the highest end editorial but it is unlikely you will get one of those jobs without going to the right film school and starting in a union job ingesting video to a server (aka third production assistant). In ten years you might get to edit "film" if you are good.

FCP has become generic at the next level and has extended into the independent camp as Mac Pro prices drop. Adobe is still entrenched in corporate. Vegas occupies the middle ground "one man band" territory offering the best value for HD production (but with weak support for Panasonic DVCPro or AVC Intra). Sony Vegas+DVDA also owns the common man 3D Blu-Ray authoring market.

Apple has recently announced a dramatic cost reduction for the next generation FCP* ($299 w/o DVD authoring). This will put pressure on Sony Vegas and Adobe. I'd bet Sony reacts with price reduction for Vegas Pro ($599 down to $299 list + specials). Still Apple charges separately for DVD and Jobs hates Blu-Ray. Many in pro post fear FCP is going down market to the middle or even lower. This may leave hole for AVID or Sony to fill.

Not sure how Adobe will react. Currently they push an annual subscription model for Premiere Pro.


*Many call the new FCP user interface demo iMovie Pro.


PS: There is a separate story for TV station news editing where AVID and Grass Valley are in a 10 years war. GV/Canopus Edius is also becoming a serious contender in the inpependent production space.

[30west]

...if I plan on advancing to more professional work in the future....

If by that you mean "get a job in an Avid shop", by all means. But if you mean higher end work of your own, stick with Vegas.

Been using Vegas since V3 days and have never even looked sideways at any other NLE and have never not been able to deliver what I had to for my clients - SD or HD.

YMMV,
Tom

[budwzr]

So you guys are sayin that pros use Avid first, FCP second and Vegas last?
As a user of Vegas who gave FCP a good chance but reverted to Vegas, I don't understand where the respect is for Sony Vegas.
Seems like its at the bottom of most people's list.

The reason Vegas gets "boring", to some, is because they hit a "plateau" mentally and look for the software to stimulate them with wizzards and presets.

A painter's palate has basic colors that the artist mixes, and brushes, scrapers, sponges, etc. to apply the paint to the canvas. Paint-by-number kits are far more popular to the masses, but is that better?

[budwzr]

i also thought the pros used vegas and the like....i was corrected in another forum...the pros use avid or fcp almost exclusively on a dedicated system...they didn't know anyone using vegas or similar

These "Pros" are not creating content, they are editing someone else's content. They're looking for straightforward "slice and dice", color correction, and broadcast format.

Then there is another whole class of people doing specialized stuff like motion graphics and compositing. Vegas has the tools and can produce a great amount of original content.

[edDV]

There are many types of "pros". They work in all types of companies and edit different types of video source and publish to different types of media. Each category has different edit software favorites.

AVID is mostly used for offline movie and TV series editorial. They also have products focused to TV news editing that are tightly integrated with large scale video servers and automated playout systems that they and others sell.

Bottom line: Where you you want to work? Entry is probably easiest at a small market TV station. Pay will be low but you will get experience to move up market. TV people usually have to move to a larger city to make more money. If you want to learn AVID, apply to a TV station that uses AVID.

If you work at corporate focused ad agencies or in house media departments, you most likely are using Adobe products and maybe FCP.

If you are a freelancer, FCP is probably most common.

If you are an independent pro that does it all yourself, Vegas is probably what you want. Alternates are FCP or Adobe. You probably don't want AVID if you don't have your own sys admin. AVID products tend to be difficult to support. Normally an independent will use whatever integrates best with his clients needs. For this reason, I need to work on Vegas, FCP and Adobe projects.

If your goal is making money, avoid editing and go for a specialty like a DaVinci colorist. Good ones pull in top bucks in the big markets and don't have to deal with the client jerks that infest an edit bay.