Moving subtitles position on DVD

[jeanl]

It's not hard, but I haven't done it yet. I'm struggling with a user-experience issue: Cropping the background isn't dangerous, but it might very well be undesirable in some cases: imagine that for some reason the background isn't transparent, (haven't seen a case of that yet), or imagine the subpic contains highlights for buttons and not subtitles (that's really hard to check!), you wouldn't want to crop in such cases... That's why I'm kind of hesitant about the apply to all idea...
jeanl
P.S. To speed things up: Cltr-E, then move, then go to the next subpic and simply press Ctrl-E and Ctrl-V (ctrl-V pastes the last modifs to the current subpic)...

[mikiem]

WElll... if you're going the full recoding route, would it be possible to just save the old track first as backup, then have revert process in case of problems? Know it's prob a lot more work -- sorry.

[jeanl]

Not a bad idea. Backup just the subpic info (for example as a sup file) which will be rather smallish and then possibly revert that in case of problem. That's a good idea in general, for a backup solution. I'll think some more about it.
Jeanl

[mattstan]

It's not hard, but I haven't done it yet. I'm struggling with a user-experience issue: Cropping the background isn't dangerous, but it might very well be undesirable in some cases: imagine that for some reason the background isn't transparent, (haven't seen a case of that yet), or imagine the subpic contains highlights for buttons and not subtitles (that's really hard to check!), you wouldn't want to crop in such cases... That's why I'm kind of hesitant about the apply to all idea...
jeanl
P.S. To speed things up: Cltr-E, then move, then go to the next subpic and simply press Ctrl-E and Ctrl-V (ctrl-V pastes the last modifs to the current subpic)...

Well I am impressed. I moved the first 10 minutes worth of subtitles, about 30 subtitles, tested the output using WinDVD, and it works very well.

Saving the alterations is also very quick, I was expecting the saving to take some time. I agree that ideally there will be a backup facility so that you can undo any changes that you've made but users can always just make a backup of the DVD files before starting (which is what I would have done if I didn't already have the DVD burned to a disk).

What Ctrl-E does is that it crops the subpic background to the minimum horizontal width to fit the "useful" part of the subtitle.

I have a concern about this cropping process. I assume that in many cases, like my case, users will want to move all the subtitles. Both the width and the height of each subtitle varies, sometimes there might be just one short word displayed on the screen (EG. 'Yes'), sometimes two lines each with multiple words. It seems to me this means the size of the background cropped will vary quite a lot. Let's say you move the first subtitle on an entire DVD, 5 VOBs worth, and then you specify to apply this change to 'all the subtitles' will all the subtitles then be consistent in their position? My concern is that when viewing the film the subtitles don't 'jump around' a lot. By this I mean that all the subtitles have their origin in the same place, so that when reading them your eyes always know exactly where to move to. Personally I think this is important. That said, in my test, I used Ctrl-E and Ctrl-V as you suggested, moving them all to the right '50' points, and as far as I could tell the origin of all the moved subtitles was in the same place.

I also have a question concerning the 'SubPic Selection'. When I load the DVD movie I've been using (Insomnia, the 1997 Norwegian original version) into DVDShrink and into WinDVD, they both show one subtitle track, English. But when I load one of the VOBs into DVDSubEdit it shows two: SubPic Selection '0x20 (en)', '0x21 (en)'. So I checked using VobEdit and that extracted two as well. When I used DVDSubEdit to scroll from one subtitle to the next, it showed the same subtitle twice in a row. In my test I just moved all of them.

EG.
'Sit still' --move the subtitle, scroll right to the next subtitle...
'Sit still' --move the subtitle, scroll right to the next subtitle...
'Steady' --move the subtitle, scroll right to the next subtitle...
'Steady' --move the subtitle, scroll right to the next subtitle...
'That was red' --move the subtitle, scroll right to the next subtitle...
'That was red' --move the subtitle, scroll right to the next subtitle...
and so on.

I am unsure why this is, I could understand it if DVDShrink and WinDVD had two identical English subtitle tracks, but both show only one. It seems easy enough to move the whole lot, but I am curious as to why there is a 'duplicate' of every subtitle.

I am very much looking forward to the 'apply to all' feature for the horizontal move. I will gladly beta-test it again for you. In the meantime is there anything specific you would like me to beta-test on the 0.902 version?

Many thanks once again, I'm very impressed with your work. Regards, etc.

[jeanl]

Salut mattstan!

Saving the alterations is also very quick, I was expecting the saving to take some time. I agree that ideally there will be a backup facility so that you can undo any changes that you've made but users can always just make a backup of the DVD files before starting (which is what I would have done if I didn't already have the DVD burned to a disk).

Yes, when you save, DVDSubEdit only saves the subpic packs, and there isn't that many of them (compared to video/audio packs) usually less than 1%, so that's very fast.

What Ctrl-E does is that it crops the subpic background to the minimum horizontal width to fit the "useful" part of the subtitle.

I have a concern about this cropping process. I assume that in many cases, like my case, users will want to move all the subtitles. Both the width and the height of each subtitle varies, sometimes there might be just one short word displayed on the screen (EG. 'Yes'), sometimes two lines each with multiple words. It seems to me this means the size of the background cropped will vary quite a lot. Let's say you move the first subtitle on an entire DVD, 5 VOBs worth, and then you specify to apply this change to 'all the subtitles' will all the subtitles then be consistent in their position? My concern is that when viewing the film the subtitles don't 'jump around' a lot. By this I mean that all the subtitles have their origin in the same place, so that when reading them your eyes always know exactly where to move to. Personally I think this is important. That said, in my test, I used Ctrl-E and Ctrl-V as you suggested, moving them all to the right '50' points, and as far as I could tell the origin of all the moved subtitles was in the same place.

Yes, when cropping, DVDSubEdit makes sure the subpics are not moved at all (they appear exactly where they did before cropping). Otherwise that would be a big problem!

I also have a question concerning the 'SubPic Selection'. When I load the DVD movie I've been using (Insomnia, the 1997 Norwegian original version) into DVDShrink and into WinDVD, they both show one subtitle track, English. But when I load one of the VOBs into DVDSubEdit it shows two: SubPic Selection '0x20 (en)', '0x21 (en)'. So I checked using VobEdit and that extracted two as well. When I used DVDSubEdit to scroll from one subtitle to the next, it showed the same subtitle twice in a row. In my test I just moved all of them.

EG.
'Sit still' --move the subtitle, scroll right to the next subtitle...
'Sit still' --move the subtitle, scroll right to the next subtitle...
'Steady' --move the subtitle, scroll right to the next subtitle...
'Steady' --move the subtitle, scroll right to the next subtitle...
'That was red' --move the subtitle, scroll right to the next subtitle...
'That was red' --move the subtitle, scroll right to the next subtitle...
and so on.

I am unsure why this is, I could understand it if DVDShrink and WinDVD had two identical English subtitle tracks, but both show only one. It seems easy enough to move the whole lot, but I am curious as to why there is a 'duplicate' of every subtitle.

Most likely you have one for Pan and Scan, and one for Widescreen. DVDSubEdit does not tell you that (it should, really), but that's an info that can be found in the IFO files. DVDShrink and WinDVD are smart enough to see that, and only show the streams that fit your current output video format.

I'll keep you posted of further developments..
jeanl

[mattstan]

I'll keep you posted of further developments..
jeanl

Many thanks once again for all the info. and explainations. Good luck with the next stage of the software. Don't forget my offer to beta-test -- I'm very happy to test aspects of the software for you, and not just the bits that will help me do what I want.
Regards, etc.

[mikiem]

"I have a concern about this cropping process. I assume that in many cases, like my case, users will want to move all the subtitles. Both the width and the height of each subtitle varies, sometimes there might be just one short word displayed on the screen (EG. 'Yes'), sometimes two lines each with multiple words. It seems to me this means the size of the background cropped will vary quite a lot. "

If it helps, just a different way of wording I think (not changing what Jeanl wrote), you can have a large picture with the word "text" placed in the middle -- like if you used a scanner to scan a 3 x 5 card but set the scan size to full page. Alternatively you could crop out everything but the 3 x 5 card, and get a much smaller overal picture, & the data you want to see would be entirely preserved.

[jeanl]

The way DVDSubEdit does it, no "useful" data is lost, and I take a margin of 2 pixels, just to be sure I don't crop anything I want to preserve. The only caveat is with menu highlights, where the background might be important (although in general it isn't, but I've seen menus where the default highlights actually hide stuff in the video background, until you select the button at which point the highlight becomes transparent)...
Anyway... I think this isn't a big issue.
Jeanl

[mikiem]

Somewhere way, way down the road... If not too much trouble.... Perhaps you'll come across a way for us to stick video in there, or hide existing video? I mean like I'd sing your praises wherever and as loudly as you ask.

[jeanl]

People,
There's a new unofficial beta for DVDSubEdit, for those of you who would like to test before I make an official release. It's beta 0.909 and can be found
here...

There's a good number of new features, improvements and bug fixes. Thanks CoNS for all the testing! Please, give it a try and let me know of any problem.

Here's the change log from beta 0.90

• Added code to crop subpic to the bare minimum width, allowing horizontal moving. This can be applied to all in the usual manner.
• Added option to move subpics flush with the nearest border.
• The main window is now resizable. I cleaned up a lot of the display code, in an attempt to make things faster and cleaner.
• The main window can also be minimized, or maximized, imagine that!
• DVDSubEdit no longer needs the CLUT to identify the pixels used for the characters. Let me know if that fails.
• Added a check box to show the main text pixels in white, and all others in black.
• Fixed a bug that caused the app to crash if you fast reloaded a vob that was no longer there.
• Fixed the infamous "display freezes, app starts writing all over" bug! A brush wasn't being released....
• DVDSubEdit no longer crashes if you quite while running the OCR function.
• The "save subpic to ppm" option was shrinking the subpicture by a factor 2. This has been fixed.
• Removed the trailing '\n' at the end of the last line in the OCR output display.

Jean

[mattstan]

People,
There's a new unofficial beta for DVDSubEdit, for those of you who would like to test before I make an official release. It's beta 0.909 and can be found
here...

There's a good number of new features, improvements and bug fixes. Thanks CoNS for all the testing! Please, give it a try and let me know of any problem.

Many thanks Jean. I'll try it out on Insomnia (as usual) and give you some feedback. Regards Etc..

[mattstan]

There's a new unofficial beta for DVDSubEdit...snip...

Many thanks Jean. I'll try it out on Insomnia (as usual) and give you some feedback...snip...

Well Jean, it works very well. Thank you very much for all your work and for making DVDSubEdit available here ahead of the official release.

There is a small bug that you should know about.

If you are moving the subpics horizontally, first you click 'crop subpic background' and then you can move the 'subpic horizontal position'. Let's say you do both of these and then you apply changes to ALL subpics.

The dialog box pops up and it has the checkboxes for 'apply changes to subpic horizontal position' and 'apply crop background' selected automatically (Nice!). Then if you click 'Do It' the subpic background is cropped for ALL the subpics, but the horizontal position does NOT move for any of the subpics.

This bug is easily worked around. After doing the above all I did was then to change the horizontal position by one point up and then one point down again, so that it was on the same value as it was just on. The software registered that there had been 'change' to the value. Then I selected apply changes to ALL supics again, the dialog poped up again but this time only the checkbox for 'apply changes to subpic horizontal position' was checked. This time when I selected 'Do It' the horizontal positions of all the subpics was done.

This is a great bit of software, many thanks again.

Regards, etc.,

mattstan

[jeanl]

Yes, that's a bug, and I think I know where that comes from (probably I tried to apply the horizontal move *before* cropping, in the "apply to all process").
Thanks for the report! I'll fix that promptly.
Jeanl
P.S. One thing you could test would be the code that automatically determines the subtitle text pixels. To test that, load a vob file (or even better, a sup file), and check the "Auto CLUT". DVDSubEdit then tries to guess what pixel type is used for the text and assigns white to it and black to all 3 others. If you can't see the text when you do that, then the code failed (or maybe they're no text!).
Note that this is done for each subpic independently.

[mattstan]

Yes, that's a bug, and I think I know where that comes from (probably I tried to apply the horizontal move *before* cropping, in the "apply to all process"). Thanks for the report! I'll fix that promptly.

Yes, that sounds like it.

One thing you could test would be the code that automatically determines the subtitle text pixels. To test that...snip...

No problem Jean, I'll test that for you in the next hour or two.

Thanks and regards, etc..

[mattstan]

One thing you could test would be the code that automatically determines the subtitle text pixels. To test that, load a vob file (or even better, a sup file), and check the "Auto CLUT". DVDSubEdit then tries to guess what pixel type is used for the text and assigns white to it and black to all 3 others. If you can't see the text when you do that, then the code failed (or maybe they're no text!).
Note that this is done for each subpic independently.

Hi Jean,

Here's how I did the test.

1. I demuxed the subtitle streams of 2 different DVD movies into 2 .sup files. The first was Insomnia (1997 version) which has had its subpic background cropped and subpics moved both horizontally and vertically, the second was Nurse Betty which has NOT had its subpic background cropped nor had the subtitles moved at all.

2. I loaded the Insomnia .sup file into DVDSubEdit. I noticed 'Automatic CLUT' was already selected.

3. I moved to an appropriate subtitle and made an image capture of DVDSubEdit.

4. I deselected 'Automatic CLUT' and made another image capture of DVDSubEdit.

5. I loaded the Nurse Betty .sup file and repeated steps 3 and 4.

As far as I can tell from your description, it worked as it should.

Here are the 4 screen captures:

NOTE: It looks like videohelp.com downgrades the quality of images posted in its forums, click on the images to see the original and better quality images.

Test 1 'Insomnia' - 'Automatic CLUT' On:




Test 1 'Insomnia' - 'Automatic CLUT' Off:




Test 2 'Nurse Betty' - 'Automatic CLUT' On:




Test 2 'Nurse Betty' - 'Automatic CLUT' Off:




Is that what you expected? Is it working well?

I hope this helps. Thanks and regards, etc.,

mattstan

[jeanl]

Thanks mattstan, it seems to work as expected!
The thing to watch for is when "Automatic CLUT" is selected, whether the text is clearly visible and seems normal (i.e., you really see the body of the characters, not the outline or simply black).
It seems to work fine on your examples as well.
Jeanl

[jeanl]

For those of you interested, a new version of DVDSubEdit is now available (1.1), see post here
jeanl

[mattstan]

For those of you interested, a new version of DVDSubEdit is now available (1.1), see post here
jeanl

Hi Jean,

I've just used the new version of DVDSubEdit to fix some subtitles on another movie (Europa). On it most subtitles were centered except for the 2 line subtitles in which the words of 2 people are displayed, you know when the subtitling convention of a '-' is displayed before the words to show that 2 people are speaking, EG.

-Your dog has stolen my shoe
-This is a job for Superman

On Europa these kind of subtitles are displayed on the far left resulting in a partially obscured first word or 2, because of TV overscan, while the rest of the subtitles are centered.

This means that using DVDSubEdit you can't just crop the background and move the first such subtitle to the position you require and apply changes to all subtitles because the majority of the subtitles, which are centered, are then moved much too far to the right.

It occured to me that a good improvement to DVDSubEdit would be the ability to autocrop the background of all subtitles and then move all subtitles to a specific starting point, perhaps in addition a horizontal centering feature would be useful in many cases, though you would need to specify the vertical height or specify to 'keep vertical height the same'.

Anyway I thought I'd mention this idea. By the way the fix of Europa worked perfectly. I watch quite a lot of non-English language films and it amazes me how many have badly designed subtitling, DVDSubEdit is an invaluble tool, many, many thanks.

Regards, Etc.

mattstan

[jeanl]

Hi mattstan! Thanks for the feedback. I've been thinking about adding red vertical border, similar to the horizontal border, so you can flush your subs to the left or the right, but no further than a border that you can specify. Would that answer your problem?
jeanl

[mattstan]

Hi mattstan! Thanks for the feedback. I've been thinking about adding red vertical border, similar to the horizontal border, so you can flush your subs to the left or the right, but no further than a border that you can specify. Would that answer your problem?
jeanl

I am not entirely sure what you mean by this. Would it result in all subtitles having the same point of origin?
Thanks Jean. Regards, etc..

[jeanl]

Well, it would work like the horizontal red borders (maybe you haven't used them yet). They define an area (a horizontal band) within which all subpics are constrainted to fall. There's a "flush" check mark in addition, which forces the subpics to move flush with the lines (as if attracted by a magnet).
If you had the same thing vertically (2 vertical lines, with a "flush" checkbox) you could set it up so all subpics would start at exactly the same point on the screen, horizontally. Coupling that with the vertical borders, you could chose a (x,y) start point and make sure all subpics close to that point are drawn to it...
Experiment with the horizontal borders, and see if you think having the same thing vertically would solve your problem.

jeanl