Capturing from Camcorder (Sony DCR-TRV18)

[saveurbuck]

I am a newbie trying to digitize all my miviDV tape recordings. Please help. Details as as follows:

Source:
Sony DCR-TRV18 MiniDV Camcorder

Sensor/Resolution:
1/4in 680k pixel Advanced HAD CCD ( < 1 MP CCD)
audio settings: 12 bits/s (the choice is between 12 and 16)
Offers picture quality with up to 500 lines of horizontal resolution.
Digital still images of 640 x 480 VGA resolution.

Recording Media:
Sony MiniDV 60 min tapes
Most of my recordings are done in LP modes recording 90 mins.

Capture Interface Used: IEEE 1394 ILink

Capture Softwares Used
Windows Movie Maker
ULead VideoStudio9
Pixela
WinDV

Most of these softwares have there own pre-defined settings. Some capture in 320 x 240, and some in 704/720 x 480. With windows movie maker, I was able to customize and capture the same in 640 x 480. Again, different captures are done in different bitrates.

The capture with high resolution (>= 640 x 480) are distorted (like streched out), and the smaller one are really small.

Encoder used: I have used TMPGEnc Encoder.

I have created number of test VCD's from different captures taken through the capture softwares above.

After going through all this, the quality of my video is bad when played on TV. It no where compares the playback which i get by directly hooking the camcorder to the TV.

I really need some help here. Three years back, when I bought my Camcorder, I never realized that the 680k CCD would not offer me good resolution. Camcorder plays on the TV have been always good.

My last solution is to directly record miniDV's on DVD media through a DVD Recorder.

Any assistance to improve the digital video quality will be greatly appreciated. It may be I am doing something wrong.

Also what does it mean by upto 500 horizantal lines of resolution?? How does a capture rsoftware knows at what resolution & bitrate to capture the video in?

Thanks in Advance

[FulciLives]

Capture via FIREWIRE (aka IEEE 1394 also known as i.link) and use WinDV and it should just make a digital copy from the miniDV to the computer.

The standard is 720x480 with 16-bit 48k Stereo PCM audio and that is what miniDV is at SP mode. I'm not sure what miniDV is at LP mode ... nobody really uses LP mode or 12-bit audio instead of 16-bit audio. It just doesn't make sense to use those modes really.

Sounds to me like you need to "pin down" the proper camcorder to computer "capture" stage first before worrying about anything else.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[redwudz]

If you are 'transferring' your video from your camera to the computer in DV format, there is no adjustment of resolution. It's not a capture, it's a simple file transfer and the resolution is what the camera puts out. If you try to change that while transferring, you will hurt the quality.

I would use 16bit sound. Usually better quality.

When I do a DV transfer I use WinDV, it doesn't change or modify anything. I normally use Type 2 DV, but some setups only work with Type 1.

I run the DV through VirtualDub Mod, after installing the Panasonic DV Codec. I edit there and apply filters. Then I usually frameserve the video output directly to TMPGEnc encoder. This avoids creating an intermediate file that takes time and space on my hard drive.

I separate out the audio and use ffmpeggui to convert to AC3 audio to save space on the DVD for higher bitrates for the video. Then I author and burn it, adding the AC3 in during authoring. I use TMPGEnc DVD Author for that.

But there are a lot of other ways. The DV you transfered from the camera should be an exact copy of the video. When it's encoded is usually where the problems are. With enough bitrate, you should be able to come very close to the quality of your DV footage.

EDIT: And what FulciLives said. He types faster.

[gadgetguy]

A few points to try to help you.

In general, what you see on the TV from a properly prepared DVD should be nearly indistinquishable from the source DV played directly from the camcorder to the same TV. If this is not what you're seeing, then there is probably something wrong with the process.

WinDV is a good program for capsferring from your Camcorder. The resulting DV-AVI file is identical to what is on the tape (assuming the computer was able to keep up with the data transfer).

TMPGEnc is a popular encoder (although I don't use it), and there are several guides about using it. Do a guide search for "DV to DVD" and read through them to get a good overview of the process and some recommended settings.


VCDs are very low quality compared to your source so they will never look as good as the source.

Edit: Them other guys type faster than me.

[saveurbuck]

Thank You FulciLives and redwudz for your replies.

I am capturing/transfering via FIREWIRE (aka IEEE 1394 also known as i.link) only. The audio settings in my old recordings is 12-Bit only, as recommended in the Sony DCR-TRV18 manual. Audio setting does not seem to be an issue as the sound is very clear.

The main issue, as rightly pointed by FulciLives, is pinning down the Video Resolution. I am doing is only a transfer process (capture) and the avi saved through the WinDV has dimensions of 720x480. The CCD on my Camcorder is only 680k and probably does not support that kind of resolution. I can't get still picture better than 640x480.

When I play the transferred video, the video is distorted. I see dots being spread like you stetch a rubber.

I did not change the default settings while transferring the video from miniDV. But then how come different transfer softwares get a different resolution video from the camcorder? Also, what is the right bitrate for such a transfer?

The very same camcorder video looks good when played directly on TV. My only intention is to make a DVD/VCD which plays similar to the quality.
I will try anything suggested in this forum. I have already burned number of coasters.

Thank You So Much in Advance

EDIT: gadgetguy, you type faster than me!!! Thanks for your reply

[Dinu Bandyopadhyay]

Hi, I have a DCR-TRV27, and I do firewire xfer quite regularly using Windows Movie Maker. As soon as the camera is set to VCR mode with the wire connected, the movie maker correctly recognizes the device as a Sony video device.

From the "Setting" field I choose "Other" and then select "DV-AVI (25Mbps)" from the field immediately below it. When these are selected, the display tells me the resolution as 720x480.

Transfer the data to your disk by pressing the "Record" button. Use media player to view the captured data on disk, it should look close to your original. Once transferred, I put the .AVI file through TMPGENC in a 2-pass VBR mode with 5000 as average bit setting. Finally I use DVDAuthor to create my DVDs.

The quality that comes out is excellent. Even when its blown up using a projector, the video quality is still very good. However, if you are doing a VCD, then of course the quality will suffer, the resolution for a VCD is 352x240.

[edDV]

Thank You FulciLives and redwudz for your replies.

I am capturing/transfering via FIREWIRE (aka IEEE 1394 also known as i.link) only. The audio settings in my old recordings is 12-Bit only, as recommended in the Sony DCR-TRV18 manual. Audio setting does not seem to be an issue as the sound is very clear.

Not an issue. Are you having audio problems?

The main issue, as rightly pointed by FulciLives, is pinning down the Video Resolution. I am doing is only a transfer process (capture) and the avi saved through the WinDV has dimensions of 720x480. The CCD on my Camcorder is only 680k and probably does not support that kind of resolution. I can't get still picture better than 640x480.

What does a 640x480 (307Kpixel) still have to do with a 720x480 (345Kpixel) 29.97 fps video transfer? Also how does a 690Kpixel single CCD relate to your point?

When I play the transferred video, the video is distorted. I see dots being spread like you stetch a rubber.

I did not change the default settings while transferring the video from miniDV. But then how come different transfer softwares get a different resolution video from the camcorder?

How are you playing it? What is stretching? Post a still?
Different resolution after DV transfer? Not if you are doing it right.

Also, what is the right bitrate for such a transfer?

25 Mb/s for video plus audio and metadata

The very same camcorder video looks good when played directly on TV.

As it should after you get the transfer and DVD encode done. DVD will be compressed but close to the original.

[saveurbuck]

Thanks to Dinu and edDV for their replies. I'll elaborate my problem by quoting your replies. Also, I am attaching a 2 sec wmv (451KB size) to show what i am talking about.

Hi, I have a DCR-TRV27, and I do firewire xfer quite regularly.

DCR-TRV27 has a CCD of 1.1 Mega Pixel while TRV18 CCD is only 680K. Can this affect something?

What does a 640x480 (307Kpixel) still have to do with a 720x480 (345Kpixel) 29.97 fps video transfer? Also how does a 690Kpixel single CCD relate to your point?

I didn't mean to say that. What I intended was to know if the size of CCD has anything to do with Video Quality and resolution.

The attached 2 sec wmv file is prepared from the avi file generated during cappsfer. Friends, please have a look and suggest if this video quality is right.

movie.zip

Thanks

[FulciLives]

Your miniDV camcorder records in DV AVI format which is 720x480 NTSC or 720x576 PAL but you are using LP speed so I don't know how or if that affects things.

This was what I was trying to point out but no one else seemed to pick up on it unless the resolution is the same in SP vs LP ???

I watched the 2 second clip. WMV is a shit format and should never be used but for what it was it looked fine to me.

You have to understand that DV on a computer looks different (generally worse) than it does on a TV and this has to do simply with differences between a computer monitor VS a regular TV.

I'd still like someone who works with DV (such as edDV) confirm what needs to be done to properly transfer from the miniDV to the computer when the miniDV was set to 12-bit audio and recorded at the LP mode.

Once we are clear on that part (I'm still not clear on it) then we can deal with the conversion to MPEG-2 DVD spec.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[saveurbuck]

You have to understand that DV on a computer looks different (generally worse) than it does on a TV and this has to do simply with differences between a computer monitor VS a regular TV.

I freuqently watch AVI movies on my notebook and they are much smoother than my capsferred DV.

I watched the 2 second clip. WMV is a shit format and should never be used but for what it was it looked fine to me.

Thank You for watching the clip. Doesn't it look grainy at some places?
I used Windows Movie Maker to transfer the DV in AVI format, which I edited in the storyboad to trim it for 2 sec. That was finally saved by Movie Maker in the WMV format. Per your suggestion, I will avoid WMV in future.

LP/SP Modes, CCD Size....How do they affect the DV transfer and video quality? Is it possible to know the resolution of original video as it was recorded on the source?

If DV transfer from a CCD of 680K and a CCD of 1.1 M is done with the same settings, what would be the difference in video quality?

Thanks

[edDV]

DCR-TRV27 has a CCD of 1.1 Mega Pixel while TRV18 CCD is only 680K. Can this affect something?

What does a 640x480 (307Kpixel) still have to do with a 720x480 (345Kpixel) 29.97 fps video transfer? Also how does a 690Kpixel single CCD relate to your point?

I didn't mean to say that. What I intended was to know if the size of CCD has anything to do with Video Quality and resolution.

Thanks

These are both low end single CCD camcorders. There is a filter that divides the CCD for R, G and B response.

TRV-18 has a 1/4 in. 680K pixel CCD
Minimun lux 5
Still = 307 or 345Kpixel
Video = 345 Kpixel

TRV-27 has a smaller 1/4.7 in. 1024K pixel CCD
Minimun lux 7
Still = 1152 x 864 max
Video = 345 Kpixel

Note that the TRV-27 has a smaller CCD and a higher minimum lux (dark sensitivity is worse). CCD physical size usually tracks with dark sensitivity. Other features and picture qualtiy seem better for the TRV-27 according to the www.camcorderinfo.com review.

I'd still like someone who works with DV (such as edDV) confirm what needs to be done to properly transfer from the miniDV to the computer when the miniDV was set to 12-bit audio and recorded at the LP mode.

DV format resolution is always 720x480 (NTSC) or 720x576 (PAL). 4:3 and 16:9 both have the same number of pixels, only the pixel aspect ratio changes. Neither is square.

Although the DV tranmission format is the same for Digital8, MiniDV LP, MiniDV SP, DVCAM and DVCPro, the cameras use different size and numbers of CCD. Consumer camcorders use one CCD that must be shared for R, G and B. High end consumer and pro DV camcorders use 3 CCDs for R, G and B. 16:9 CCD mapping differs as well.



Consumer camcorders all use the mapping on the left (i.e. less CCD resolution in 16:9 mode)

MiniDV LP, MiniDV SP and DVCAM differ only by track spacing* on the tape. The wider the track spacing, the easier it is to play a tape on another camcorder. LP isn't advised for long term storage. Over the years, you may not be able to play it, even on the original camcorder that recorded it.

12bit (4 channel) audio is explained in this post.
https://forum.videohelp.com/viewtopic.php?t=265201&highlight=audio

* track width
DVCAM track width = 15 microns - very good interchange
MiniDV SP track width = 10 microns - good interchange
MiniDV LP track width = 6.7 microns - poor interchange

[FulciLives]

I freuqently watch AVI movies on my notebook and they are much smoother than my capsferred DV.

My guess is you are talking about downloaded DivX/XviD AVI clips which are progressive video and normally taken from very high quality sources such as HDTV feeds. Home shot camcorder footage in DV AVI format is interlaced video. Interlaced video looks like shit on a computer monitor but it looks fine on a normal TV.

LP/SP Modes, CCD Size....How do they affect the DV transfer and video quality? Is it possible to know the resolution of original video as it was recorded on the source?

If DV transfer from a CCD of 680K and a CCD of 1.1 M is done with the same settings, what would be the difference in video quality?

Thanks

I don't know if SP vs LP mode makes a difference resolution wise. There either has to be a resolution difference and/or a bitrate difference between SP and LP but I don't work much with miniDV camcorder footage and most of what is talked about in this regard is SP mode not LP mode. edDV knows camcorders and miniDV footage very well so I'm hoping he will find time to chime in on this issue.

As for the CCD ... a CCD of 1.1 is going to look "better" than a CCD of 680 but that doesn't affect the resolution or bitrate of the miniDV format.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

*** EDIT ***
I was typing this while edDV had entered his post above me ... I hadn't the chance to read it until after I posted this post.

[edDV]

LP and SP use the same 25 mb/s video bitrate and the same 720x480/576 resolution. Only the track width and spacing on the tape differs. Once the video is transferred over IEEE-1394 to a HDD there is no difference.

SONY CCD resolutions for 4:3 video are pretty much standard at 690k (the inner rectangle in this picture. The PDA pro cams map larger for 16:9 mode. Otherwise, higher density CCDs are used for stills only. It must be a data rate issue.



Single CCD camcorders share the 690k for R, G and B. 3CCD models use 690k for each component. There is a significant amount of processing between the CCD and the final 720x480 DV format output.

Picture quality roughly tracks with price. The specs that make a difference are led by optics quality and #CCDs.

[edDV]

I freuqently watch AVI movies on my notebook and they are much smoother than my capsferred DV.

My guess is you are talking about downloaded DivX/XviD AVI clips which are progressive video and normally taken from very high quality sources such as HDTV feeds. Home shot camcorder footage in DV AVI format is interlaced video. Interlaced video looks like shit on a computer monitor but it looks fine on a normal TV.

DV is high quality but not optimal for raw notebook playback. DV is interlace, high bitrate and uses large files. The computer would need to DV decode and deinterlace on the fly. Most notebooks can't keep up.

It is a production format, not a distribution format.

[FulciLives]

LP and SP use the same 25 mb/s video bitrate and the same 720x480/576 resolution. Only the track width and spacing on the tape differs. Once the video is transferred over IEEE-1394 to a HDD there is no difference.

Interesting though I'm not sure I understand the track width and spacing on the tape "issues".

I woud assume that LP mode looks not as good as SP mode ???

What's the "real world" difference then between the two?

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[edDV]

The video is FM modulated onto tape in both cases. LP with narrower tracks would probably play back with higher noise and crosstalk in analog terms, but since it is demodulated as a digital signal, it either works or it doesn't. SP with a stronger and less fussy signal would play back with more reliability.

Hope that helps.

An analogy might be receiving a DTV over the air broadcast at 25 miles vs 90 miles. If the signal is strong enough to decode at 90 miles, it will look identical to the same stronger signal at 25 miles.

[Abond]

LP/SP Modes, CCD Size....How do they affect the DV transfer and video quality? Is it possible to know the resolution of original video as it was recorded on the source?

If DV transfer from a CCD of 680K and a CCD of 1.1 M is done with the same settings, what would be the difference in video quality?

LP/SP can affect the transfered video I think. Not the process of the transfer, but the end quality. SP I consider better.
CCD size has nothing to do with quality of the video. You are not transfering from CCD, but from DV tape. Therefore there is no difference in the video quality if your CCD is 680K or 1.1M or whatever. CCD is simply a display.

[edDV]

LP/SP Modes, CCD Size....How do they affect the DV transfer and video quality? Is it possible to know the resolution of original video as it was recorded on the source?

If DV transfer from a CCD of 680K and a CCD of 1.1 M is done with the same settings, what would be the difference in video quality?

LP/SP can affect the transfered video I think. Not the process of the transfer, but the end quality. SP I consider better.

Nope, no quality difference at the HDD end. The difference is reliability of playback. I wouldn't use LP mode myself.

CCD size has nothing to do with quality of the video. You are not transfering from CCD, but from DV tape. Therefore there is no difference in the video quality if your CCD is 680K or 1.1M or whatever. CCD is simply a display.

I partially agree. But you can feed the CCD camera output as a DV stream over IEEE-1394 without first going to tape.

CCD size can and does differ across the Sony line. The $45K broadcast (Digital Betacam) camcorder uses 3-chip 2/3-inch 16:9/4:3 Widescreen PowerHAD IT CCD 1038 x 504 (H x V).

A larger CCD physical size usually means better low light performance.

The pixel resolution of the CCD can be anything and still output at 720x480. A higher pixel count CCD may or may not make a better DV image. It is only one of many factors that affect image quality.

[edDV]

Looky what Google helped me find !!!

The Basics of Camera Technology
http://bssc.sel.sony.com/BroadcastandBusiness/markets/10014/docs/cameratechnologyweb.pdf

[Abond]

I think I am understanding what CCD is quite wrongly. Sorry.

[FulciLives]

Looky what Google helped me find !!!

The Basics of Camera Technology
http://bssc.sel.sony.com/BroadcastandBusiness/markets/10014/docs/cameratechnologyweb.pdf

Looks interesting.

It's a PDF so I downloaded it to read later.

Thanks

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[saveurbuck]

Thank You edDV and FulciLives for sharing you knowledge. edDV, you are a Guru, and I must pay due respect to your knowledge.

The LP/SP is very clear to me now and I'll be avoid using the LP Mode in future.

DV format resolution is always 720x480 (NTSC) or 720x576 (PAL). 4:3 and 16:9 both have the same number of pixels, only the pixel aspect ratio changes. Neither is square.

Does this mean that no matter what kind of consumer digital camcorder I use, DV will have the same resolution format, same bitrate, same fps etc? If that's true, its an eye opener for me.

But you can feed the CCD camera output as a DV stream over IEEE-1394 without first going to tape.

How do I do that?

Looky what Google helped me find !!!

The Basics of Camera Technology
http://bssc.sel.sony.com/BroadcastandBusiness/markets/10014/docs/cameratechnologyweb.pdf

I'll download it to read later.

Thanks in Advance

[edDV]

Thank You edDV and FulciLives for sharing you knowledge. edDV, you are a Guru, and I must pay due respect to your knowledge.

The LP/SP is very clear to me now and I'll be avoid using the LP Mode in future.

DV format resolution is always 720x480 (NTSC) or 720x576 (PAL). 4:3 and 16:9 both have the same number of pixels, only the pixel aspect ratio changes. Neither is square.

Does this mean that no matter what kind of consumer digital camcorder I use, DV will have the same resolution format, same bitrate, same fps etc? If that's true, its an eye opener for me.

Yes DV is a standardized interchange format. Whether you use a $299 el cheapo Digital8 or a $15,000 DVCPro the file format is the same. The pixture quality will vary greatly limited only by the format itself. Next step up DVCPro50, then Digital Betacam.

But you can feed the CCD camera output as a DV stream over IEEE-1394 without first going to tape.

How do I do that?

On most Sony camcorders, just put the power switch in the camera position and you will get a live camera feed over IEEE-1394.