Creating a DVD for a Worldwide audience (both PAL and NTSC Areas)

[groupwriting]

I recently produced a 45min low budget PAL DVD documentary. It is stocked in local shops.

I have created it as follows:

1. Shot Video using a PAL Digital8 camera
2. Edited video in EditStudio 4 and created Mpg2 files
3. Authored in DVD Lab v1.3 (video auto demuxed on import)

I needed to later create an NTSC to cater for tourists from the US. I did this by using EditStudio to output to NTSC mpg2. I then created a similar DVD Lab project but as NTSC.

So far I have not had any compatibilty or issues over the last year. The only draw back is that local shops have to stock two formats of DVDs on the shelves, NTSC and PAL.

Recently, other documentaries have come onto the shelves but branded as 'multi-region' with no reference to NTSC or PAL.

I'm now in a situation that the shops are asking questions why I can't have one that plays all over the world? the producers of the other documentaries claim the disks will play in both Europe(PAL) and the US(NTSC). the shop owners think I am taking up unneccessary space on the shelf and I don't want to get de-listed.

I have searched many Forum Posts and the only conclusion I can draw is the other producers must be using NTSC in the hope that it will play on most players. As this will play on all US players and most Europe. I'd be reluctant to follow this, as last year someone bought an NTSC in error and rang me up to ask why it was playing in black and white.

Any suggestions or recommendation on how I could best overcome this problem would be very much appreciated.

Thank, Groupwiting

[Richard_G]

One point that is often forgotten is that DVD Region 2 includes Europe, which uses PAL but it also includes Japan which uses NTSC. Therefore EVERY Region 2 DVD player will play both.

I have a similar situation and I solved it the easy way. I shot a stage production on 3 PAL MiniDV camcorders and produced a PAL DVD from the footage. I didn't set any Region coding so it is Region Free. I then put a note on the case insert stating that the DVD was Region Free PAL. The note then states that it will play on any PAL or multi-standard DVD player but not on an NTSC only player.

Job done. If any American tourists buy it they know what they are getting. If they get it home and find they can't play it, that's their problem.

To cater for customers from that inward looking land, I did consider shooting in NTSC as I've never seen a conversion that looks anything like as good as the original. Then realised that would require 3 new inferior format camcorders, not something I was prepared to do.

[mats.hogberg]

You can tell the shop owners that mixed NTSC/PAL discs aren't within the DVD standard.

/Mats

[mikiem]

My *understanding* is that most DVDs are encoded NTSC in this sort of situation, & that most DVD players around the world accept it, while the reverse isn't true -- most NTSC players won't do PAL.

In your case I believe the *std.* solution is to reduce fps to 24, often just by setting to play at 24, not actually going full-tilt to change fps, then encoding NTSC with pulldown to give players the option of 3:2 removal.

[FulciLives]

This would add to your cost BUT what about creating a single package that includes 2 DVD discs ... 1 in PAL format and 1 in NTSC format.

The cost of including 2 instead of 1 DVD disc is going to be relatively low.

There are a variety of ways for converting from PAL to NTSC depending on how much time and effert and money you want to put into it.

Anyways the 2 disc option is the only way I can see doing it since, as mentioned already, it is out of DVD spec to include PAL and NTSC on a single disc.

Of course the other option is to have a single DVD disc PAL release and a single DVD disc NTSC release but that calls for "double stock" and just making a single 2 DVD disc release might be the better "marketing" way of doing it.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[groupwriting]

Thanks for your feedback to date. As I am producing these myself (writing and printing to DVD-R), having both PAL and NTSC in the case case unfortunately is going to double my workload. So at this point in time I've thinking of going with only selling NTSC to everyone with a note on the box to say NTSC or multi-format players. Anyone that reports a problem playing in PAL regions, I will send them a PAL copy.

I have just recently come accross as DVD that states "PAL60/NTSC"
Wondering what exactly this disc format is?

[FulciLives]

Thanks for your feedback to date. As I am producing these myself (writing and printing to DVD-R), having both PAL and NTSC in the case case unfortunately is going to double my workload. So at this point in time I've thinking of going with only selling NTSC to everyone with a note on the box to say NTSC or multi-format players. Anyone that reports a problem playing in PAL regions, I will send them a PAL copy.

I have just recently come accross as DVD that states "PAL60/NTSC"
Wondering what exactly this disc format is?

It's just regular NTSC but they are saying it will output PAL60 assuming you have the "correct type" of DVD player.

Some European VHS and DVD players can play back NTSC but output what is called PAL60 which is a "mutated" form of NTSC that will work on most European televisions. There is however no way to encode a DVD as PAL60 so my guess is that the disc is just plain old regular NTSC.

Seems beyond bizzare to me to sell a NTSC DVD in a PAL format country especially since you have a true PAL DVD version that you can offer.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[guns1inger]

We get a number of NTSC region 4 releases in Australia. These are usually limited appeal releaes where it isn't worth the distributers cost to convert them to PAL for what is percieved as a small audience. They carry a warning sticker telling the consumer that the disk is NTSC and requires compatible playback equipment.

While most DVD players sold over here will playback NTSC material, other devices aren't so free. I believe that PS2s that have not been modded don't playback NTSC material, Xbox may be in the same boat. Similarly, not all of the protable deivices are as good at it either.

[edDV]

I've seen businesses use DVD-10 (2 side, 4.35 GB single layer each side) and put PAL on one side, NTSC on the other. The blanks aren't very expensive if you shop around.

http://shopping.yahoo.com/search/;_ylc=X3oDMTFmajlmbzdpBF9TAzk2MDc5MjYwBGsDZG91YmxlLXN...le-sided%20dvd

[whitejremiah]

yea, i can only speak of myself being an NTSC player owner and i do have ONE pal dvd.......it works just fine on both the dvd players ive tried it on.....but yes, if you want to guaruntee full compatability, dual sided discs would be your best bet......

edit: just looked at the link posted...holy snot that's expensive..........300-400 dollars for a 40 pack of discs? i hope that he's sellin the discs off for more than 10 bux a disc or else he will be making NOTHING on it....

[edDV]

yea, i can only speak of myself being an NTSC player owner and i do have ONE pal dvd.......it works just fine on both the dvd players ive tried it on.....but yes, if you want to guaruntee full compatability, dual sided discs would be your best bet......

edit: just looked at the link posted...holy snot that's expensive..........300-400 dollars for a 40 pack of discs? i hope that he's sellin the discs off for more than 10 bux a disc or else he will be making NOTHING on it....

They are far cheaper if you search

[whitejremiah]

yea, i searched a bit more, this is probably a little more reasonable....can't really vouch for the quality of the discs or the retailer themselves...but here ya go.....


http://shop.store.yahoo.com/accaproducts/dudv94gb1xdo.html

[FulciLives]

It's cheaper to just use 2 single sided single layer DVD discs than 1 double sided single layer (each side) DVD disc.

This would also allow one to put writing on each of the DVD discs indicating which is PAL format and which is NTSC format.

Standard cases can be bought to hold 2 discs so no extra wide case is needed and no change in existing artwork either unless you want to change the artwork to read 2 discs one PAL and one NTSC.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[whitejremiah]

heh, yea, im not sure why that idea didn't come to me either......but yea, dual disc cases and having 2 separate discs would in fact probably be more cost efficiant...you can buy dual disc cases in bulk on ebay dirt cheap, too....like a few hundred of em for probably ten bux plus shipping........i'd suggest sticking with dvd-r discs, though, to keep the best possible compatability....

also, as a side note, i know reading through the entire post now, that you dont really wanna go this route as it will double your workload...have you thought about a standalone dvd duplicator? I'm not sure how well your sales actually are or anything, but if your doing good enough, this may be a good option as there are ones that can burn multiple (like 5-8 and even more, im sure if you needed to go that high) copies of a disc at a time, and they are relatively easy to use...just flop in the master copy, and a bunch of blanks, close out the drives and let it rip......may be worth looking into if your intending on doing like 20 at a time or something.....

[groupwriting]

As an experiment, today I tried playing NTSC discs on my two PAL players. I started by first playing the PAL format disc in each player and made a mental note of the quality. I was looking specifically at clarity of text and also for jerkiness in motion.

Both players read the discs without a problem, which I was surprised at because the older one was bought back in either 1999 or 2000. From the intro text, it was clear that the text was not sharp, quite pixelated. The other noticeable difference was in quick motion, even people walking quickly had streaks through the subjects. Both players gave the exact same results for NTSC.

So from a comment above, i'd find it hard to stand over giving people with PAL Players a NTSC disc. I would be giving them a much inferior product.

So its looking like two disc in the same box! The cases are almost the same price so no problem there. I think I will just have to grin and bare the cost of the extra disc and time to produce.

Thanks.

[edDV]

...
So from a comment above, i'd find it hard to stand over giving people with PAL Players a NTSC disc. I would be giving them a much inferior product.

And if you gave PAL discs to NTSC people, 95% couldn't figure out how to play them at all even if you suggested a computer playback.

[mikiem]

"Recently, other documentaries have come onto the shelves but branded as 'multi-region' with no reference to NTSC or PAL. "

Might just be worth it to check out a few of these to see what's what. Wouldn't necessarily re-do my production based on the package labeling. After all, multi-region could very well be just PAL regions -- there's 2 of 'em aren't there? Be worth it to check the competition anyway I imagine -- if you included two discs sell it to the proprietor that way & tell him just what he's getting from you versus them. L, put a sticker on the package to sell the customers.

"So its looking like two disc in the same box! The cases are almost the same price so no problem there. I think I will just have to grin and bare the cost of the extra disc and time to produce. "

Would you possibly consider the 2nd disc in an envelope/sleeve, labeled as an extra for US customers, just enclosed in same case? PAL disc would just get tossed anyway, and we Yanks would love the *extra* part -- a 2 disc case would just say it's normal OP & we'll mutter at hassling with the 2nd disc every time we open the case.

"Both players read the discs without a problem, which I was surprised at because the older one was bought back in either 1999 or 2000. "

From what I've read, the standard is for all PAL players to play NTSC. In most, the conversion is to semi-spec PAL, which is handled differently based on the TV, not the DVD player. As far as everything I've read anyway.

FWIW, probably wouldn't try it on a commercial product, least without a LOT of testing, but don't see why an *illegal* DVD with both formats wouldn't work. At 45 minutes you have the space, 2 sets of menus (to avoid stretched text appearance) wouldn't take much, and AFAIK the decoder follows the mpg2 video headers anyway -- uses the ifo specs for the menus.

Also fWIW, think the biggest hassle doing an NTSC version would be the same as if I did a PAL project -- how in the devil to test it.

[Richard_G]

As an experiment, today I tried playing NTSC discs on my two PAL players. I started by first playing the PAL format disc in each player and made a mental note of the quality. I was looking specifically at clarity of text and also for jerkiness in motion.

Both players read the discs without a problem, which I was surprised at because the older one was bought back in either 1999 or 2000.

ALL Region 2 DVD players, no matter how old, will play both PAL and NTSC. Europe is Region 2 and uses PAL, Japan is Region 2 and uses NTSC so it follows that a Region 2 player must be able to cope with both. However, what you don't know is was the inferior quality down to the conversion taking place in the player or the inherent lower quality of NTSC video.

[flemming kristiansen]

I think ALL DVD players will play both NTSC and PAL as long as the disc is region O (regionfree). Therefore you dont have to bother wether its PAL or NTSC, only that it is region O and not 1 or 2.

[guns1inger]

flemming kristiansen wrote

I think ALL DVD players will play both NTSC and PAL as long as the disc is region O (regionfree). Therefore you dont have to bother wether its PAL or NTSC, only that it is region O and not 1 or 2.

Nope. Region and format are only related by the fact that some regions are NTSC format countries, some are PAL format countries, and some cover both (example, Region 2 : UK (PAL), Japan (NTSC)). Region 0 means that the region restrictions don't apply, but this does not mean format restriction don't as well. Format is physical, region is virtual. Australia is a PAL format country that shares Region 4 with South America (for whatever arbitrary reason). I can get NTSC discs here that are Region 4 encoded. But only Region 4 or region free players that can playback PAL format discs can play these. Thankfully, most PAL stand alone players can, however many early PS2 could not playback NTSC material, regardless of region.

[dvd3500]

Most of my friends in the US can't play PAL formatted DVDs even if they are region 0.

[groupwriting]

Richard_G, an excellent point. As a trial I have just played both the PAL and NTSC discs on my PC DVD-ROM. I can not see any difference in the quality. I hope this is an indication that the encoding to NTSC hasn't been an issue. No negative feedback from US customers to date anyway.

[Poppa_Meth]

Multi-region in my experience just means it has all regions codes included on the disc so it can play in a dvd player from any region. You still need equipment that can handle the correct signal format though, NTSC or PAL. Region is nothing but the number itself that determines where in the world the disc is released for. Region has nothing to do with format. I'd be willing to bet those discs are just PAL discs that can play in any region IF you can playback PAL.