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  1. Ok, I have hundreds of DVDs (and I get more constantly) filled with video that I would like to keep for, well as long as I live (I'm only 18 )

    The thing is I've been reading alot about the lifespan of DVD+R's and I'm worried. I put a ton of money & work into these DVDs and I don't want them to be gone. I've always used the cheapest media I can find (my bad. I know). By cheap I mean like $29 for 200 DVDs.

    I want to fix my situation and I need advice. Should I transfer the DVDs I have to better quality media? What media is a good choice? (I need to gte it at futureshop, obviously by the 100 or 200s) and What is the best way to do this? just rip & burn with DVD Decryptor?

    Should I have another back-up? Like to a magnetic tape drive? If so, any recomendations? I know nothing about tape drives, only that they are suposed to last a long long time.

    Any help is appreciated. Thanks!
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  2. VH Veteran jimmalenko's Avatar
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    I'd go with a hard drive.

    300GB hard drives are currently the "sweet spot" price-wise in my area, and you could fit about 64 DVDs on each as ISOs (DVDDecrypter ISO Read Mode). At the other end of the scale, I've seen a 2TB external drive, which would hold 425 full DVDs. A little pricey though
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  3. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
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    Hard drives crash, they don't last but maybe 10 years usually. Optical media is more robust, as long as you don't buy junk. Just store on HDD, optical drives, magnetic tape backups, hard copy printouts, etc. The more the merrier, right?
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  4. VH Veteran jimmalenko's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by lordsmurf
    Hard drives crash, they don't last but maybe 10 years usually. Optical media is more robust, as long as you don't buy junk. Just store on HDD, optical drives, magnetic tape backups, hard copy printouts, etc. The more the merrier, right?
    Hard drives crash when they're being constantly used over that 10 years. As a storage alternative I'd much rather a hard drive sitting in my closet than DVDRs.
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    Obviously there are no facts on DVD-R media avaialable yet, all what is known or quoted as "facts" are just lab simulations (and even those are often very bleak).

    Sure things are DVD-RAMs. Theyre around for ~10+ years in their current form, and about 15+ since inception (dont remember exact year). Thus we know for sure they last for at lest 15 years...
    Same goes for *some* CD-Rs, if you don't mind small size format. Kodak's Gold-on-Gold is already 13 or 14 years mature, my oldest one is exactly 10 years old now, and has no sign of data loss (unfortunately it is not produced anymore, but Im sure there are other manufacturers of writable phtalo-cyanine CD-R discs that are as good).

    Hard drives might be good idea too, if you are not going to use them daily (only write once and keep as storage device in some dry and warm place) and you will transfer all data to the next hdd rather often.
    But I'd go with smurf's opinion too, and I would never trust a hard drive, specially modern, mass-produced in China cheap drives to last for any long term even if not used...

    Ultimately I'd go data backup cartridges, I read somewhere they should last at least 50 years if stored properly; not long ago I found one very old Travan drive with 100MB (or was it 400MB) cartridge and after installation and some work I restored someone's Windows 3.1 from almost 20 years ago It even had a ASCII porn (for printing on an office plotter I guess? =)
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    Hi m_vallee;

    My vote would be to buy HDD's as $$ allows and back up any vital data (keep records of what is on what drive and use MP4 compression as allowable - experiment a little with AV content and see what is "acceptable" to you). Then pull each "archive drive" and put it in a nice padded ESD resistant container (like the clamshell jobs that Seagates come in, along with the original ESD pouch) in a cool, dry place and don't worry about it. Any CDR/DVDR drops dead, put the appropriate HDD back online and run off another "using" copy. If you really want to make your life easier, buy a hot swap bay and then you don't even have to take the computer offline (though you will have to mount the drive in the detachable tray if you don't stock one tray per drive).

    When some superior means of data backup comes along, migrate it on along and use your HDD's as system drives in second/third/etc computers. Remember that an HDD will last a long, long time as long as it's not plugged in and running (or dropped, "zapped" by static electricity, etc). Even if you should have a drive with a fried controller board, you can frequently salvage your data by swapping in a "good" board from another drive of the same make and model.

    One thing to bear in mind is that 300-320GB is the current sweet spot, but that sweet spot keeps going up yearly, so just buy drives as you need 'em - they will be better as time goes on. While I'm on record as being skeptical about increases in CPU processing speed, significant increases in storage density are indeed just around the corner. "Vertical storage" (magnetic domains are perpendicular to the platter surface rather than in parallel with it) should be introduced later this year and mainstreamed in '07; that will double data densities overnight (and allow consequently speedier access times to boot*, yay!). *pun intentional.

    Good luck and all the best,
    Morse
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  7. Thanks for everyone's replies.

    Hard drives seem to be a good option. But I have about 500-600 DVDs right now and I get more and more constantly. To keep all that up on hard drives would cost me a fourtune. I'm looking at tape drives and a 100GB cartridge is about $40, thats cost effective.

    What about transfering the DVDs I already have burned? should I transfer those to better media?
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  8. Ok, I was just looking at hard drives. external ones are much more expensive, but that obviously what I need.

    What if I bought an external hard drive enclosure and then just bought internal drives, switching them out once they were full of backed up data? would that work? I havn't had much experience with hard drives, other than the one 250GB external one I have.

    I would go the route of tape drive (I still may) but I know absolutly nothing about them, and I prefer to know a bit about something before I go trusting it.
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  9. VH Veteran jimmalenko's Avatar
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    Assuming that 1 DVD = 4.38GB, and that the drive storage is in Marketing GBs - that is, 100GB = 100,000,000,000 bytes:

    100GB = 21 DVDs to a tape (100,000,000,000 / 1024^3)/4.38 = 21

    600 DVDs / 21 x $40 each = $1143


    As an example I'll use this hard drive from NewEgg:
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16822144392

    320GB = (320,000,000,000 / 1024^3) / 4.38 = 63 discs to a drive.

    600 DVDs / 63 x $126 each = $1200

    So it's quite comparable price-wise, and when you factor in the need to buy a tape drive, I'd say initially it's probably going to be slightly cheaper.
    If in doubt, Google it.
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  10. Thank you so much jimmalenko! That make alot of sense. Plus hard drives are easier to access data than tapes are (that I do know)

    So I can buy one external hard drive enclosure and just swap out the internal drives as I need them, right? That will work?

    Also, how are hard drives for long term storage? I mean, this will most likely be written to once and then sit there until I need to make a new copy every now and then. So ware and tear shouldn't be a factor.

    Also does the brand of hard drive matter much?
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  11. Member sacajaweeda's Avatar
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    Another thing you could try is to make 2 or 3 copies of evrything on different brands/types of the best quality DVDs you can get. 50 years from now you might just have 2 or 3 times as many junk DVDs on your hands or maybe you'll have a few survivors. It's cheap enough, and increases your odds at any rate. It would just be a big pain finding the time to do all that copying.
    "There is nothing in the world more helpless and irresponsible and depraved than a man in the depths of an ether binge, and I knew we'd get into that rotten stuff pretty soon." -- Raoul Duke
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  12. Member lacywest's Avatar
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    http://msn.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,124312,00.asp?GT1=7645

    Do Burned CDs Have a Short Life Span?

    Optical discs may not be your best bet for storing digital media long term, expert says.

    John Blau, IDG News Service
    Tuesday, January 10, 2006
    Opinions vary on how to preserve data on digital storage media, such as optical CDs and DVDs. Kurt Gerecke, a physicist and storage expert at IBM Deutschland, has his own view: If you want to avoid having to burn new CDs every few years, use magnetic tapes to store all your pictures, videos and songs for a lifetime."Unlike pressed original CDs, burned CDs have a relatively short life span of between two to five years, depending on the quality of the CD," Gerecke says. "There are a few things you can do to extend the life of a burned CD, like keeping the disc in a cool, dark space, but not a whole lot more."

    The problem is material degradation. Optical discs commonly used for burning, such as CD-R and CD-RW, have a recording surface consisting of a layer of dye that can be modified by heat to store data. The degradation process can result in the data "shifting" on the surface and thus becoming unreadable to the laser beam.

    "Many of the cheap burnable CDs available at discount stores have a life span of around two years," Gerecke says. "Some of the better-quality discs offer a longer life span, of a maximum of five years."

    Distinguishing high-quality burnable CDs from low-quality discs is difficult, he says, because few vendors use life span as a selling point.

    Similar Limitations
    Hard-drive disks also have their limitations, according to Gerecke. The problem with hard drives, he says, is not so much the disk itself as it is the disk bearing, which has a positioning function similar to a ball bearing. "If the hard drive uses an inexpensive disk bearing, that bearing will wear out faster than a more expensive one," he says. His recommendation: a hard-drive disk with 7200 revolutions per minute.

    To overcome the preservation limitations of burnable CDs, Gerecke suggests using magnetic tapes, which, he claims, can have a life span of 30 years to 100 years, depending on their quality. "Even if magnetic tapes are also subject to degradation, they're still the superior storage media," he says.

    But he's quick to point out that no storage medium lasts forever and, consequently, consumers and business alike need to have a migration plan to new storage technologies.

    "Companies, in particular, need to be constantly looking at new storage technologies and have an archiving strategy that allows them to automatically migrate to new technologies," he says. "Otherwise, they're going to wind up in a dead-end. And for those sitting on terabytes of crucial data, that could be a colossal problem."
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    Hi m_vallee;

    "...Also does the brand of hard drive matter much?..."

    Yes; equally as much the particular model of drive (sometimes a particular maker will have a model that is a real stinker).

    FWIW, I really like the Western Digital 320GB SE series drives. Figure about $125 for an IDE or about $135 for a SATA as OEM purchases from a wholesaler (you need to supply your own cables and you don't get a box or install disk - but the install software can all be downloaded and isn't really necessary if you're using XP anyway). I've got 9 of 'em in my server, and they are cooler, show fewer SMART errors, and are significantly quieter than my older generation 250GB Seagates.

    When I alluded to a "hot swap rack", that's a kind of quick detach hard drive mounting that takes up one 5-1/4" bay of your computer. Most use a key to turn off the drive so you can pull the drive out without turning off the computer. If you really want to go to extremes, some people will get a case like the Coolermaster Stacker and fill it with a bunch of hot swaps for server use (that's what I want my next case/configuration to be....).

    The price you mention for tape is comparable to HDD, so if you're more comfortable with high cap tapes, that can work fine, too.

    Good luck with whatever you choose!
    All the best,
    Morse
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    lacywest, that article is crap. It's been discussed in another recent thread. It's really nothing more than IBM propaganda, disguised as news.
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  15. umm i know i'll get my ass kicked... buttt.....

    you got say 10 years..... so wait 5 to get a bray/hddvd... & spend the rest 5 re-baccking up...... 8)

    dude its been ~5 since i brunt my first cd...
    COOKIEEE!!!
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  16. I know some hospitals and pharmacies that have remote back up servers in other cities in case of hurricane, etc. Seems like the day will come when individuals will be able to rent/buy reasonably cheap storage space in a couple separate locations, say Istanbul and Vancouver, and archive there, if it's that important. All the backups in the world don't help if they can be taken out by the same flood, fire, tornado, tsunami, etc.

    At the risk of sounding curmudgeonly, when you're twice 18 many of the hundreds of DVDs won't seem that important anymore, unless they're heirlooms or unless you're starting a rare video business, which would be pretty cool.
    "The fact to which we have got to cling, as to a lifebelt, is that it is possible to be a normal decent person and yet be fully alive." - George Orwell
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  17. Well I don't really want to have a huge server or anything, I do need to keep it small. I'm still not even sure if I will be doing this or not, as many people say discs do last.


    If I do go the hard drive route, all I need is one external hard drive housing and I can just keep changing the hard drives as they fill and store the filled hard drive away, right? That will work? And how should I store them?
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    I date all my discs. I've got about 300 discs and expect another 300 over the next several years.

    I plan to put everything on a 5 yr cycle and recode everything either onto this 'old (by then) DVD media' or onto what ever has replaced it..

    In the last 5 years I've gone from 30 gig HDD's and 800 mhz cpu's to 3 200 gig HDD's and a 3800+ X2 cpu. When I think about how much faster things will be in 3 - 5 years I don't think it'll take me more than a couple days a month to move things over.

    One question. Does unrecorded DVD media deteriorate at the same pace as recorded media? Just wondering if I should stock up when price appropriate.
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  19. I might suggest a different strategy. Backup all your disks to higher quality disks such as Taiyo Yuden. TY's are available for about $55/200 so for $165 you should be able to back up your entire collection.

    If you start seeing one or two failures in the low cost media, just back up again so you always have two good copies. If you start seeing large quantities of failures, then backup all the TY's and dump the low cost media.

    Several posters have touched upon a topic which has merit. Which will happen first? The media starts to fail or the entire medium becomes obselete.
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  20. Originally Posted by EAO
    I date all my discs. I've got about 300 discs and expect another 300 over the next several years.

    I plan to put everything on a 5 yr cycle and recode everything either onto this 'old (by then) DVD media' or onto what ever has replaced it..

    In the last 5 years I've gone from 30 gig HDD's and 800 mhz cpu's to 3 200 gig HDD's and a 3800+ X2 cpu. When I think about how much faster things will be in 3 - 5 years I don't think it'll take me more than a couple days a month to move things over.

    One question. Does unrecorded DVD media deteriorate at the same pace as recorded media? Just wondering if I should stock up when price appropriate.
    This is right on the money. You never can back something up and expect to get it back 50 years from now. You have to keep moving it forward or you risk not having software or hardware that can access at your media.

    What if you saved everything on the 8" floppy disks like I used to program PDP-11 computers in the early 1980s? Let alone the 5 1/4" ones used in early APPLE ][ computeres. Who cares how long the data lasts on the media if there is nothing to read it with?
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    What about the use of external HD's, which you only power up once a week or once a month, backup your files, and shut it off. Seems to me like that will last for a very long time. Possibly 20 years if stored properly and not banged around. Beats the heck out of other alternatives. Closest thing would be magnetic tape media. For the speed and price (considering I only paid $100.00 for my 250gb seagate external), this is a pretty inexpensive, long term storage solution for me. BTW my drive was after rebates and coupons.
    Rob
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  22. Member lacywest's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by lordsmurf
    lacywest, that article is crap. It's been discussed in another recent thread. It's really nothing more than IBM propaganda, disguised as news.
    Alright now ... MSN is my home page and when I saw this I said to myself ...

    hmmm ... l wonder what the guys at DVDR Help will have to say ...

    Calm down Smurf ... we have a lot of experience with this stuff ... and if someone is going to talk about this stuff we should have knowledge of these kind of articles ... in case someone we know reads that stuff and/but doesn't check out this particular website.

    I've got some CDs I burned back in 1999 and 2000 and the zip files open up and nfo files display the info inside them.

    The CDs have "Smart and Friendly" on them. I believe I bought them at Staples years ago ... when I got my first CD Burner. They are 650 mb/74 minutes type.

    DVDInfo Pro can't display any info ... I guess they're really old ... old ... I can't even rewrite on these kind anymore.

    I also bought a bunch of Rewritable CDs by Nashua ... these will still rewrite. They are 700MB and 80mins. The files on them are dated ... 2000 and 2001 and the zip files open up and the nfo files inside are readable. DVDInfo Pro can't display any info on these either.
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  23. Member stackner's Avatar
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    i figure my solution is to keep addint to my collection of about 1000 dvdr's for another 5 or so years and when the next gen pc burners (maybe blueray or hd-dvd) that store a lot more come out i will then archive them all to that. this will have them like new again and stored on less disc's. i never plan to keep one dvd for ever as better (larger) storage is always coming. its like my data cd's and cideo cd's i burnt years ago as soon as i got a dvd burner i archived them all onto dvds.
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    Originally Posted by stackner
    i figure my solution is to keep addint to my collection of about 1000 dvdr's for another 5 or so years and when the next gen pc burners (maybe blueray or hd-dvd) that store a lot more come out i will then archive them all to that. this will have them like new again and stored on less disc's. i never plan to keep one dvd for ever as better (larger) storage is always coming. its like my data cd's and cideo cd's i burnt years ago as soon as i got a dvd burner i archived them all onto dvds.


    Yeah...

    So when one format is finally settled on everyone here needs to contribute on how to transcode (freeware please) your stuff onto it while retaining as much of the original quality as possible and....

    Hey!!!

    Wait a minute...

    We're all doing that already
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    Actually, standard DVDs will be obsolete or at best in the "on sale now" bins by the time you'll need to back them up in 5 years, so why bother?
    You probably will be able to buy factory pressed DVD-Video originals at $1 each if not less, so it doesn't make sense to back it up again after those 5 years or so. You probably will be backing them up again to either hd-dvd or br-dvd format.

    Thus I'd say just back them up now to standard DVD-Rs, they will last those next 5 years for sure (if you use TY etc). Its the cheapest, most convenient and probably best option.
    5 years later you'll move those backups on to the next common media format, whatever we will use by that time.
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    thats my point. for "ME" anyway there is no need for LONG TERM backup as ill keep going to the next gen media
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  27. ok then. Where do I get Taiyo Yuden discs? I live in canada and can only get to best buy, futureshop and staples.

    Is Taiyo Yuden the brand name? If not, What brand name are Taiyo Yuden discs?


    You're probably right, as long as I keep enough back ups then I should be ok.
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  28. Taiyo Yuden is the manufacturer. I have burned about 600 with typically 2-3 bad disks in every lot of 100.

    http://www.supermediastore.com/dvdmedia.html



    On sale right now. You can back up 600 disks for about $120.
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    www.blankmedia.ca for Canadians for discs.
    www.effectuality.ca for Canadians for DVD cases.
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    Originally Posted by m_vallee
    So I can buy one external hard drive enclosure and just swap out the internal drives as I need them, right? That will work?
    I have to say on this, that I've got an enclosure, and I'm not gonna swap anymore. To me it's a PAIN to change the cables and every time I fear that I might be ripping something out. If you know what you're doing, that's great and cheaper than a full external HD. IF you, like me are a bit unsure about the force you should apply, when changing HD, think it over.
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