Create (not Convert) 5.1 WAV (LPCM)?

[dvd3500]

Having trolled around the forums (fora?) and the internet I haven't quite got my ead around this type of audio.
We are experimenting with new music and effects and can easily create 6 mono WAV files but I haven't found a Freeware tool you that allows me to "mux" or "glue" them together to create a 5.1 WAV file.
I want to make a DVD Video compliant LPCM stream in the end, since, in theory, 5.1 (6.1 or 7.1) LPCM is the highest audio quality you can get for free. (Please don't argue the fact that Dolby is just as good etc.)
I know the file will be huge.
Thanks!

[dvd3500]

Something here might help:
https://www.videohelp.com/~jsoto/audiotools.htm
And apperently the Belight has a "muxer" in it... might be useful...

[daphy]

besweet itself can do this job for you

for DVD-Video a 6 channel WAV should be possible - beware of the overall sampling frequenz!

edit: take a look for the free DVD-Audio Project, this quality features are even higher (24 bit 96 KHZ and so on ...) than DVD-Video (limited to 48 KHz)

[dvd3500]

Tried a few different things in BeSweet and couldn't find it. BeLight rides on it so it should be OK.
The reason I want to do video is we want still pictures to run as well.
The other reason is DVD Audio players are not too common.
BTW: Anyone know how to rip and transcode an Audio DVD?
Thanks...

[kschang]

Hmmm... Just went through every page of BeSweetGUI three times, and can't find a thing about combining 6 channels into 1 file. That's weird...

[mikiem]

If it helps...

Mentioned file sizes -- I think 5.1 you'll reach the wav file limit at around 15 - 20 minutes. Using winmedia you can remove that file size limitation, and record high qual (near?) lossless, or avi files can contain just wav audio.

The wav format itself, the version that can hold 6 channels, isn't accepted in a lot of software, so you might have to plan your workflow -- when you want or have to work with mono wavs. You'll find similar limits on what will work with winmedia audio. At any rate it's less convenient then one might wish.

The idea of mixing 6(+) channel, as it relates to music & as I understand it anyway , is you want to position your mics around the venue or wherever the performance is taking place, and then mimic their location in your multichannel mix. Bring this up because there is an amount of cross feeding or bleed or whatever you want to call it -- no track exists in isolation, and includes elements from the other channels in an amount relative to their position. Not that you can't create a mix by muxing, but depending on your project might want to sort of mimic the process, maybe blending each mono wav in other channels at appropriate levels.

[daphy]

Hiho dude,

6ChannelWAV see BeSweet -> FAQ -> 31b -> take a closer look at your channel order!
I had (once) uploaded a small app which creates mux files for you on needfulthings (it´s meanwhile part of BeLight)

Mentioned file sizes -- I think 5.1 you'll reach the wav file limit at around 15 - 20 minutes. Using winmedia you can remove that file size limitation, and record high qual (near?) lossless, or avi files can contain just wav audio.

Do you really think winmedia is the best choice? I can´t imagine that this should be compatible with DVD-Video nor any other stand alone solution -> then you better stick to DVD-Video and a lossy solution like AC3 or DTS (or give DVD-Audio a try)
BTW: DVD-Audio´s can be mastered as a hybrid (~> also contain DVD-Video as mirrored tracks in lesser quality) so both type of player can handle this disc!

Anyone know how to rip and transcode an Audio DVD?

Meanwhile it´s possible, but still not legal (it´s the same with DVD-Video :P )

bye Daphy

[dvd3500]

but still not legal

Depends on the country you are in... Here in Germany, if there is no copy protection on the medium it is allowed for private use.

beware of the overall sampling frequenz

Why?

you'll reach the wav file limit at around 15 - 20

What limit is that?

6 channels, isn't accepted in a lot of software

I am using Sonic SoftEncode and HypercubeTranscode.
Sometimes you have to rename it to .DTS but they work fine.

blending each mono wav in other channels at appropriate levels

Hypercube can handle it well. It is electronic music so each channel is unique with hardly any crossfading.

I had (once) uploaded a small app which creates mux files for you on needfulthings (it´s meanwhile part of BeLight)

Yep. FOund it!

BTW: DVD-Audio´s can be mastered as a hybrid (~> also contain DVD-Video as mirrored tracks in lesser quality) so both type of player can handle this disc!

Yeah I read the spec. It sates you can go up to 6Mbit+ with the audio, leaving around 3Mbit for video. That's enough for most video indeed, however, the extra effort and the fact that my source is only in 48Khz makes me shy away from it. Not to mention that I don't know of anyone who has a DVD-Audio capable player.
Will do some testing and let you know..

[daphy]

I am using Sonic SoftEncode and HypercubeTranscode.
Sometimes you have to rename it to .DTS but they work fine

beide können kein DTS enkodieren
-> Sonic Foundry SoftEncode only supports encoding of AC3/AC3WAV
-> Hypercube decodes DTS using WinDVD DS drivers - it´s only possible to encode rarely used multichannel MP2

beware of the overall sampling frequenz

Why?

the overall sampling frequenz of a DVD-Video is 9,8Mb/s -> count together your 6 channel´s WAV sampling rates and you will see the problem:
f.e. 1536kb/s x 6 = 9.216 Mb/s SPDiF only could manage optical something about 3~4 Mb coaxial ~4.8Mb AFAIK

I´m not sure if 768 and/or 1536 Kb/s is supported on DVD-Video, I had once a thread on doom9 on this, use search there to find some more details

It sates you can go up to 6Mbit+ with the audio, leaving around 3Mbit for video. That's enough for most video indeed, however, the extra effort and the fact that my source is only in 48Khz makes me shy away from it.

Not quite right - DVD-Audio hybrid means all features of a DVD-Audio (-> DVD-Audio also supports inside it´s track a video sequence of course) plus all features of DVD-Video on one disc.
Finally your player decides which track could be replayed -> at least every common player will replay the DVD-Video part

CYA Daphy

[dvd3500]

beide können kein DTS enkodieren

Tach.. gut für Dich, dass ich auch deutsch kann :-)

-> Sonic Foundry SoftEncode only supports encoding of AC3/AC3WAV
-> Hypercube decodes DTS using WinDVD DS drivers - it´s only possible to encode rarely used multichannel MP2

Did I ever say I wanted to encode DTS?
If I had a spare 3000 USD$ I might have some professional do this instead of me :-)
Didn't I say LPCM is, in theory, the highest quality "free" audio stream?
That's what I was getting at.
Hypercube can Decode a 5.1 Wave while adding DSP and DRC to 6 Mono waves. You have rename the ending from .wav to .dts for it to take it though.
:-)
To be honest though, for this project, I don't need either. I have my 6 mono files that I need to put together and that's it.
My authoring software (DVDLabPro) likes it so I think I am good to go.

According to DVDDemystified 48Khz 6 channel LPCM should hit something like 4Mbit as part of the DVD-Video standard. My numbers may be slightly off there though.
Since it is electronic "music" I can adust the rate as needed from the software.

I still haven#t found documented proof that there is a file size limit on WAV files.
All your comments have been very good "food for thought".
I will let you know how it goes...

[mikiem]

"Do you really think winmedia is the best choice? I can´t imagine that this should be compatible with DVD-Video nor any other stand alone solution -> then you better stick to DVD-Video and a lossy solution like AC3 or DTS (or give DVD-Audio a try) "

"What limit is that? "

Winmedia audio includes quite a few options, among them lossless. While might be used to wma used for small file size, using it as a container, same as avi, removes file size restrictions if that poses a problem -- a 6 channel wav stops at around 15 - 20 minutes or so because the file exceeds wav file format 2 gig limits.

"I still haven#t found documented proof that there is a file size limit on WAV files. "

THere's not a lot of docs, M/Soft has a few, but try it. Capturing 5.1 wav (don't need actual input even as channels without input will straight-line), writing to disc stops at just over 2 gig. Or try appending a couple of 1 gig plus wav files. If you find a way to exceed this limit please let me know as it would solve an unrelated prob for me. & yes, use ntfs.

RE: compatibility... Whilst capturing to ac3 might be possible, it's hardly editable. It's not uncommon to work through more then one format between initial recording and final output, and with multichannel, almost a given.

[dvd3500]

Well the first attempts have not worked.
BeLight complains that it can't handle the mono Wavs...

[dvd3500]

Got it to work with both BeLight 21 and MultiWav from JSOTO. Problem is some of the adjustments I wanted to make with Hypercube didn't wokr because it stopped halfway through.
Had no problems with 2GB+ WAVs.
I ended up using MAGIX AUdio Cleaning Lab to get the effects I wanted (as mentioned above about the crossovers).
Have yet to complete a DVD with it though...
BitRate is 1576 (I think) and may need adjusted...

[dvd3500]

Not 100% happy with the results. The Surround channels are too soft for some reason. Simpling normalizing and/or gain adjustment makes it clip on my computer so I am afraid/can't judge how loud to go on the them.
I am also not getting the LFE channel perfect...