Please Help with Capture Card Decision. (Xbox Capture)

[Halo96]

Hi Guys,

I've done alot of searching here. And I have a few questions that I was hoping you guys can help out with;

I want to capture video from my Xbox gaming console. To be edited afterwards. I think this will be a fun way to get into video editing.

But I want to know the best way to get the Highest Quality I can for what I'm doing. Most kids that do this, just use a Dazzle 80/90/150. But I hear horror stories about these units.

I don't know wheather to go PCI, or External USB2? Mpeg2 Hardware Encoder,...Or DV Capture?

I will want to play on my TV while capturing. So if the device does Not have outputs,...Then I will split the Signal from the Xbox with Y Cables.(I don't have Video Outputs on my TV or VCR).

Finished files are to be uploaded to the internet. To be watched on a PC.
Is it better to Capture in DV? Like with a ADS Pyro A/V Link. I hear it's better to Edit with this format.

Or should I go with a Hardware Mpeg2 Encoder? Like a ADS DVD Xpress.

What about a Sapphire 550 Pro?

I basically want to have fun getting into video editing. But just with Capturing Xbox Games for now. Something easy to use, with No Audio Synch problems, etc,....But I also don't necessarily want low quality either.

The only downside to capturing in DV, seams to be the Big file size. I have a 40gb 7200 HD that will be dedicated to this. With another 50gb or so available on my other HD's. About 90gb's total available. With future plans of getting another big hd soon.

Or would editing Mpeg2 be fine for what I'm doing?

So where should I be looking? DV? Mpeg 2 Encoder? PCI? USB2?
And which one?

I was looking at the ADS Pyro AV Link for DV. Sapphire 550 Pro for PCI. And ADS DVD Xpress for External Mpeg2 Encoder.

Looking to Spend <$200

Any help or advice for this Video Nooby would Be Greatly Appreciated!
Thanks Guys,
-Tony-

[whitejremiah]

okay well...this is what i'd advise....capture to NEITHER mpeg2 or DV...i recommend capturing to AVI using something like an ATI all in wonder video card.....a solid AIW card can be had for around 200 dollars, i think...just within your price range i'd recommend capturing using a program called virtualdub and a video codec called huffyuv (not sure how long you intend to actually capture for) or if you cant afford the space, then to go with something called mjpg for the video codec instead....after that, compress it to divx, xvid, wmv, or whatever other format you so choose (i'd personally go with either divx or xvid, though some people perfer wmv, quicktime, real media, ect......) and as far as editing goes, virtualdub can do a pretty good job for most basic editing that you would probably end up using for this type of thing.......i couldnt imagine you doing anything more than cutting out parts, maybe resizing the video if you find a need to do so, and possibly denoising it (that would be, basically if a cable got loose during part of the capture, it could clear up some of the "fuzz" in the picture) also, i'd highly advise using s-video instead of the standard RCA cables for the capturing if at all possible....it DOES make a significant differance, just take my word on that....thats my two cents for now, if anyone else wants to chime in with their opinions, feel free to do so that way he can make his choices not just based on one or two opinions.........

[Halo96]

Thanks alot Man. I really appreciate the help.

So you think something like an ATI TV Wonder Pro PCI, capturing in AVI with VirtualDub, would be my best bet? Then I can decide to use the Huffyuv codec for AVI, or the Mjpeg codec. Then edit,...Then compress to wmv, divx, etc.
I guess that would be better quality than my previous ideas.

By the way,...Each game lasts about 10-20 minutes tops. So I guess I'd need to capture for about 20 minutes at a time. Maybe a couple hours worth in a sitting, with breaks in between.
And I DO plan on doing more than just cutting out parts. I plan on experimenting with lots of effects. But my friend has Adobe Premiere, Vegas, and some other editing programs. So I don't need that. I will be doing this with him.

How many gb's would AVI take up per hour?

And what about the ATI/Saphire 550 Cards? Big step up from the TV Wonder Pro? I can do what you suggest with the 550 by bypassing the Mpeg2 encoder right? Is the 550 better with video quality and audio synch than the TV Wonder Pro?

Thanks for being patient with my stupid questions. I'm learning. MUCH appreciated man.
-Tony-

[Halo96]

I just bought an ATI TV Wonder Pro. I didn't open it it yet, because I haven't got the right wires I need. But I have a question.

Can anyone tell me what the benefits would be if I went with the ATI TV Wonder Elite/Sapphire 550, instead of the Wonder Pro? I know it has a Hardware Mpeg 2 Encoder. That's a plus. But I want to mostly capture Avi's. I can bypass the Encoder on the 550 right?

Would it be a higher quality capture for avi's? i might return the Wonder Pro for the Sapphire 550 if that's so.

Thanks again Guys.

[lordsmurf]

There is a delay on pretty much all cards. So play on a tv, only record on the computer. Go from XBOX to a VCR, do composite/audio out to computer, and do coax out to tv.

[Halo96]

Thanks Lordsmurf.

I can set it up with my VCR as you suggested. But wouldn't the quality be better if I used S-Video, or Component?

If I use the Coaxial output from my vcr to tv,...I only have a Composite/audio ouput(red/white/yellow) from my vcr to the capture card.
I want to try to use Component, or S-Video at least.

And wouldn't it be better to go straight from Xbox to cap card? I could just use splitters, to split the audio/vid outputs of the xbox. So i can play on the tv, and record on pc at the same time. Wouldn't this be better than going through the vcr? Or would splitting the outputs lessen the quality?

I found this on the web
http://www.xbox.com/en-US/hardware/advancedavpack.htm

It hooks right up to the Xbox. Then I can use a splitter on the Audio Outs to TV, And Sound Card. Then Send the Composite Video Out to TV. And send the S-Video Out to the Cap card.

What do you guys think?

1.) Use the VCR?
Or
2.) Split the outputs from the Xbox, to go directly to cap card, And TV?

Thanks

[Mrsash]

I am interested in modding my xbox and was also thinking of going for a media centre to capture video with. So does this question relate to adding a card in xbox or via USB to give it video capturing possibilities.
thanks

[bbeiler]

Halo96,

I just bought and installed a Sapphire theater 550 pro on a new computer. But first let me give a little history. I used to have the orginal radeon AIW on an old computer. I used to capture with ATI's mmc 9.1 software using s-video (source Hi-8 camcorder). I spent months on these forums trying to get the best video so that I could eventually burn a dvd with my Hi-8 material with basically zero loss in visual quality. i did the virtual dub thing then used tmpg (to convert to mpeg2) for a while, but wow did that take time and space. For 2 hours of capture, it was something like 60 gigs. Through hours and hours of trial and error i found out that capturing directly (mpeg-2) with ati's mmc 8.1 or higher yeilded the same quality as going through the entire process of virtual dub/huffy/then tmpg. However, I did have to capture at 8000 kb/s directly to mpeg-2 for the video to look equally impressive as the long method at about 6000 kb/s. I mentioned using 8.1 or higher. that is when ati introduced video filters and their direct capture software. I noticed signifant increased in quality over older versions.

I now use 9.1. I wanted to just move the original aiw over to my new computer but it used an AGP slot and my new computer doesn't have that (PCI-express/PCI). So i got a normal Video card and bought the sapphire 550 theatre pro. I am still able to use mmc 9.1 but I haven't actually caputured anything yet. (still very new) I'm not sure how the hardware encoder (inside the sapphire) works. Whether it just kicks in with any software that is capable of capturing mpeg-2 or there is something that I should do to make it work?

I'm writing all this for two reasons.

1. If the theater pro can caputre mpeg-2 from an s-video source better that the quality i hard before, then I would recommend just caputuring mpeg-2 (if that is your end output codec).

2. if you get the theater pro maybe you could shed a little light on using it, and i'll do the same (the more I use it). ie hardware encoder


Brent

[Halo96]

Hey Brent,

I still have the TV Wonder Pro. Although I might return it, and order the Sapphire 550 Pro if I find out that you can bypass the mpeg 2 encoder and get better quality than the Wonder Pro.

I haven't really captured much yet. I still need the splitters and wires, so I can play on my TV, and record to the capture car at the same time, so there's no delay when I play. Just gotta go buy them.

I know that I can get good quality by just capturing to Mpeg2. But I want to do this to get into Video Editing. And isn't AVI a better format to edit than mpeg2? That's basically the only reason I want to capture in avi. To be edited in Adobe Premiere Pro 1.5.

I'm still figuring all of this stuff out. I'm quite new to this. I made a few Test Captures in avi, using the latest Ati MMC. 9.08 I think? The Huffyuv codec didn't seam to make the file much smaller than a regular avi,...if at all. But the Mjpeg codec seamed to help a bit. I was having alot of problems with VirtualDub. Not recognizing the Wonder Pro, and such. So I just used mmc.

I also ran into problems with sound. I have a decent Onboard sound on my mobo. P4P800 Deluxe. And my other sound card does Not have 1/8th Line In. Only Digital S/pdif In/Out, and 1/4 Analog Ins/Outs that are not preamplified. It's for Audio Production. M-Audio Delta 1010.
But I just connected the Line out of the Wonder Pro, to the Line in of the Onboard audio. Then mapped it through my M-Audio sound card. Seams to be working fine now.

I'll let you know if I get the Sapphire 550 Pro.
Thanks Brent,
-Tony-

[bbeiler]

Halo96
Actually I have a little more info since I last posted. Sorry so long, but I was away. I tried to capture with mmc 9.1 and the capture button wasn't there like it was on the last computer. (It wasn't even an option). I could view TV and anything I plugged into the S-video or composite but no record option. I then tried NeroVision. I could capture but my settings were very limited. I could select Nero digital (which is not Mpeg2) and some preset SVCD settings. I then hopped over to my old computer (Original AIW AGP card) and a plethera of settings appeared. So I captured using the preset Mpeg 2 (Nero on theater pro) and the output was excellent, possibly the best I've seen from TV (I didn't try s-video yet). The captured setting for video was above 9000 kb/s (I forget exactly). I have a feeling that you may be right about bypassing the Mpeg 2 ecoder. It might be difficult. I'm about to try the ChrisTV proggy. It's lastest version is designed for theater pro 550 and it states it gives full settings control of the mpeg2 capture. (the trial is like 20 days, and I'm not sure if I want to dump another $50 into this capture thing). I'll let you know how things go.

My observations and opinions up to this point are...

1. The TV picture is much better than AIW.
2. Integrates wonderfully into Media center 2005
3. I bought the card mainly for capture (Not TV- I have a DVR)
4. I have a feeling that Mpeg2 is the main capure feature.
5. What I have captured so far (TV) has been visually identical to the original. I don't know how much could be gained by capturing with anything else AVI/huffy etc and then converting. Editing can be done in mpeg2 format, so if mpeg2 is your desired output setting than this card should be ok. Visual quality might start to be a problem if you have to re-encode in mpeg-2 format over and over again. If you had an avi file then you can work on it over a period of time (cut, paste, insert text, transitions, then when you're done you could encode to mpeg-2 only once - decreasing your chances of quality loss.
6. I have a feeling capturing in avi is possible with this card but I haven't found out yet - nor have I tried very hard yet.
7. If capturing is your main concern and then EDITing. I'd stick with the card you have. Capture with Huffy, because you're going to use Premiere to encode to mpeg2 in the end anyway. So the Hardware capture card will be eliminated from the equation anyway.
8. I'm still using mmc but only so I can view tv in Internet Explorer.

I'll keep you posted

Brent

[lordsmurf]

As far as #1 goes, your computer monitor shows more than a tv. You see more, including all of the overscan, and all of the detail (including noise!) that was hidden by the low res of the tv set. Welcome to digital video.

[SHS]

Just an idea but what about just use an Distribution Amplifier like from RadioShack Model: 15-1172

[bbeiler]

Lordsmurf,

Actually what I was referring to in judging picture quality was the TV picture on the monitor comparing both cards. I used to have an AIW radeon, now I have the theater pro. The AIW was terrible viewing full screen on the monitor and now the theater pro is actually tolerable on the monitor. And yes, you are absolutely correct, picture quality does look better when I burn captured TV on a DVD then display on a TV tube.

Brent

[Halo96]

SHS,

Was your post directed towards me?

I saw that Distribution Amp at Radio Shack. It seamed like more than I needed. I just need to split the source 1 time. And a bit pricey at about $50.

But now that you brought it up,...I think it might be a good idea. I was just going to use Splitters. But that would probably lessen the quality.
This Ditribution Amp probably wouldn't! Correct?

That's the hole point of a Distribution Amp I guess. To amplify the split signals, so they match the source. I hadn't even thought of that for some reason. Thanks!

And Thanks Brent. I appreciate it.

[SHS]

Yes Halo96 I though by using a Distribution Amp would help in REALtime display that you can play the Xbox on TV and Record at the same time and $50 is far charper then some other Distribution Amp that I scean which run in at $100+.

[Halo96]

*UPDATE*

Ok Guys,...Everything is up and running

Xbox---->Distribution Amp

One output of DA to the TV,...the other to ATI TV Wonder Pro.

Seams to be working great. I'm using MMC 9.08 with HuffyUv on Fastest/Fastest. And PCM Native Audio. The .avi files are taking up about 650mb's per minute on my hd. Does that sound about right? Mjpeg was smaller size, but I noticed a MUCH lower quality video for some reason. So I just stuck with HuffyUv. I did notice that I had to make some color adjustments with MMC. Don't know if that's a monitor issue or not yet.

I tried using VirtualDub,...but couldn't get it to work.

Thanks for everyone's help.

[bbeiler]

Halo 96 (Or anyone else reading the thread)

It sounds like your good to go. But this is what I have come up with. I have been busy over the past week since I bought the Theater pro (sapphire). I have been pulling my hair out. Very few software prog work with the capture card. Like I said before TV quality is great as expected. However, capturing is another story. MMC will not work (at least not the capturing part of it-previewing was great) yet. It is not even an option. The record button is gone. I've tried Christv and it does the job. There are many options that I can adjust the hardware encoder and I can capture using software as well (ie huffyuv) which would "bypass" the hardware encoder. I just didn't want to buy another program when all I would use Christv for is to capture since viewing TV was no where near the quality of MCE 2005 or mmc. So I tried various other programs. Virtual dub will not work-again capturing is not an option. I tried Nero and I eventually could capture mgeg-2 through the hardware encoder built in to the card. However I could not adjust "top field" or "bottom field" interlace and when played back on a regular tv it was jumpy. On my HDTV it was fine-I'm guessing because it is progressive. Christv must capture "top field" first because it was fine on the regular tv as well. I eventually used DVD moviefactory 2.0 and I could make just about as many adjustments as christv including which field to capture. It was great. I could also adjust VBR and CBR at 4,6, and 8 thousand. I am now starting to get excited at the possibility of using this progy.

Quality:

I ran comparison using Christv and DVDmoviefactory at 8000 and to no surprise they were identical. I guess because the software had nothing to do with it and they were just "piggybacking" off the hardware encoder. I then used christv to capture using huffyuv and then I used tmpg to change to mgeg2 to at 8000. This may surprise some people but the quality was not as good as the direct mpeg2 capture using the hardware encoder. (I used all the highest quality settings). It was very noticeable in a couch with multiple patterns. It was blurred with tmpg and very detailed with the card. I then also used my old computer with the original aiw and caputured-software using mmc9.1 mpeg2 using filters (which was the was I used to do it). When I did the comparison this was on par with the huffy then tmpg route. So to sum up, it seems my purschase of the sapphire theater pro card was a good one after all. It yeilded the best "end result" of mpeg2, and it did it on the fly.

Halo 96, I know you have slightly different goals then myself with the whole xbox thing, but I hope this helped with the decision of buying the card. It may be too late since it seems you've been using the wonder pro, but maybe others can benefit from this post. The theater pro is not an easy card to use, but the mpeg 2 capturing seems to be great.

Brent