Is there a DVD recorder that can do good copying bad VHS's?

[DVD2VHS]

First of all, I have a Pioneer DVR-220-s (seems to be popular here in the forum). I have some VHS tapes that are old and a little scratchy in some places that causes the picture to jump occasionally, especially if it is recorded in EP mode. With this kind of problem, on most DVD recorders when the VHS gets jumpy in the picture, it will look distorted on DVD. The picture would freeze for less than a second, or sometimes the screen would go completely black. I don't mind if it does it only on rare occasions, but too much or the screen goes black is unacceptable.

I also have some tapes that are 3rd generation copies, and the picture is less than perfect. Some of those tapes look squiggly on DVD, also completely unacceptable. Too many people have tapes that they want to preserve on DVD, but the recorders are not copying them exactly as we see them on the TV screen.

I want to know if there's something I can do with this DVD recorder to help this issue. I'd hate to buy a new recorder because I love this Pioneer DVR 220. The picture and sound are about the best you can get! I just want to be able to copy less-than-perfect tapes without terrible loss of quality on DVD. What is this time bass corrector thing? Is that what I have to have? I heard those are rediculously expensive. I might as well buy a new recorder for less that can copy bad tapes.

Thanks!

[cd090580]

Noise in video is very bad when encoding to mpeg.
I think you should capture it to your computer and then encode to dvd with denoiser filter enabled in your encoder or avisynth script.

[DVD2VHS]

Well, audio quality isn't an issue for me. It's just the picture. I don't have a video capture hardware nor software to put the movies on the computer. I wouldn't want to anyway because I have too many "bad" tapes to archive and it would take forever knowing how slow computer DVD burners are (at least mine is).

I need to know what set-top/standalone recorders can do better with those tapes.

[handyguy]

I tried the Panasonic, it has some special filters for this sort of conversion. But why not play from another vcr & see if the picture is better?

[trhouse]

Using a different VCR is what I do first for problem tapes. I have two Sharp, one Sony, and two Panasonic VCR's at the moment. One of them will always play back a problem tape better than the others. Second the Panasonic ES10 can take a tape that is rolling vertically and jittering horizontally and eliminate both in some instances. I had one such tape and it made the horizontal jitter disappear and the vertically rolling ( on the recorded dvd ) became a transparent horizontal bar that moved from bottom to top of the screen but the video itself did not roll even though what it was capturing was rolling. ES10's like the 220 are now discontinued. It is not certain if the replacement ES20 can do this. I also have a Pioneer 531H but it cannot correct problems like this.

[DVD2VHS]

Changing VCRs certainly works sometimes, but tapes like 2nd+ generation copies have unavoidable jumpiness that's actually ON the copy because that's how the original one played when it was copied.

Say I have a downright poor quality tape and it won't look exactly like it does on VHS when it's been put on DVD. What I expected from a DVD recorder when I first purchased one was to not really correct some problems (which it does, and I was very pleasantly surprised!), but to look NO WORSE than the original source, no matter how bad it is.

If I can copy a poor VHS on another VHS without as much loss of quality, but it's WORSE on DVD, it's just unacceptable.

[trhouse]

Those blackouts might be what is described on this thread,

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=519685

I have not seen it on the newer Pioneer 531H.

[LCSHG]

[ DVD2VHS ]


I think you are trying to make somthing out of nothing
I don't belive there is a problem with the DVD recorder I've never had problems getting excellent recordings on my DVD and your is an excellent unit,

The problem could be your VCR, a poor and damaged tape [or both]

I recently dubbed some old silent movies on tapes to DVD. Harold Lloyd, Buster Keaton, Douglas Fairbank, etc.They were originaly filmed in the late 1920's and were transfered commercially to VHS tape. The tape was in good shape
The images were terrible and most of the film was a harsh Black and White, and hard to see
They were dubbed to DVD with no problem's The DVD's played fine and looked no better or worse than the tapes. They had to be acceptable as that was the way it is.

Garbage in Garbage out


EDIT

the reason for the tape to copy to another tape [ with some result] is most likely the fact the VHS is Analog and can put up with some problems
DVD is Digital Its either on or off
I f you want to copy these tapes [if defective] you may have to do so on anothe VHS recorder
You could copy to DVD and edit the problem areas out but this may be a bummer

[FulciLives]

Sounds like a Full Frame TBC (Time Base Corrector) is what you need.

The cheapest yet still functional Full Frame TBC is the AVT-8710 which costs $189.95

The other "cheap" option is the Datavideo TBC-1000 which costs about $300.00

I really think that is the way for you to go.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[trhouse]

It is hard to judge the severity of the "jumpiness" you mention, but encoders always have more difficulty with motion whether it is intentional or not. If the jumpiness is recorded on the tape, have you tried recording in XP mode? That will give the highest bitrate for handling motion.

You might want to visit the Restoration forum for more ideas. It appears you are dealing with more than one issue.

[davideck]

The picture would freeze for less than a second, or sometimes the screen would go completely black. I don't mind if it does it only on rare occasions, but too much or the screen goes black is unacceptable.

An external TBC should prevent the freezing and black outs.

I also have some tapes that are 3rd generation copies, and the picture is less than perfect. Some of those tapes look squiggly on DVD, also completely unacceptable.

An external TBC will not eliminate 2nd generation (or above) embedded timebase errors.

[handyguy]

Another possibility is that if you store vhs on the side you can cause wrinkles & when played back, you see jumps.

[trhouse]

I have some VHS tapes that are old and a little scratchy in some places that causes the picture to jump occasionally, especially if it is recorded in EP mode.

I hope you are not trying to copy VHS EP mode tape to dvd in EP mode. The quality drop for dvd is more severe than it is for tape. It is a property of the medium not the recorder.

[DVD2VHS]

^Not using EP mode on DVD. I was just talking about the VHS being in that mode.

Sounds like the TBC is my only option. Not planning to spend almost $200 on one right now. I'll wait later.

Just to make sure everyone understands what I was asking in the first place- I'm not looking to eliminate the messed up parts of the tapes, which can be done sometimes but not usually. All I need is that if the tape has bad tracking or bad colors, it'll look exactly the same on DVD as it was on VHS with no visual errors caused by the *DVD recorder* that are NOT found on the original tape. That's what I'm hoping a TBC does.

[davideck]

All I need is that if the tape has bad tracking or bad colors, it'll look exactly the same on DVD as it was on VHS with no visual errors caused by the *DVD recorder* that are NOT found on the original tape. That's what I'm hoping a TBC does.

Your TV may be doing a better job of masking timebase errors than what an external TBC will do. Second generation (and beyond) recordings fall into the realm where a TBC can sometimes make things worse.

An external TBC will provide uninterrupted sync to the capture device, which should eliminate freezing, blackouts, and dropped frames. But I wouldn't expect too much in the way of image improvement. Matching the quality of VHS playback on your TV screen may be too tall an order.

[tluxon]

I have a tape or two that exhibit what you describe and my LiteOn LVW-5005 records exactly what's on the tape, including the video noise. When I record it on a ReplayTV, a Philips DVD recorder, or Panasonic DVD recorder, I get major dropouts significantly longer than the periods of noise on the tape.

Specifically, some of the noise I'm referring to is from tapes that have insert edits that were done on a unit without a flying erase head, which is no doubt a worst case scenario.

[DVD2VHS]

LiteOn LVW-5005 huh? I'll look at that one.

[trhouse]

I have been looking at the LVW-5045 which seems to be hard drive LVW-5005. The manual says it only records to dvd in dvd+vr mode. Maybe someone can confirm that. Dvd-video mode is more compatible.

[tluxon]

I have been looking at the LVW-5045 which seems to be hard drive LVW-5005. The manual says it only records to dvd in dvd+vr mode. Maybe someone can confirm that. Dvd-video mode is more compatible.

That's true, and my 5005 only records in VR mode too. It hasn't been a problem for me because I re-author everything on my PC. One of the reasons my next recorder may be the JVC MH30S instead of the LiteOn 5045 is in case I want to share discs with others without having to author them on my PC. My 5005 is invaluable, however, for those difficult to record sources or when I might need region free and/or disabled macrovision.

[mattso]

The LiteOn's inbuilt filters clean up noisy/grainy VHS very well. I hear the Panasonics (eg ES10) do a fine job too, if you use composite cables (not S-video), and you don't go beyond SP. I've yet to try out a Panasonic, but that seems the general consensus over at avsforum.com. But maybe you just need a higher-end VCR with video noise filtration?

It's a pity there's not more "video de-noise" hardware units out there, for us consumers, or "prosumers". Plenty of proc amps & TBCs to choose from, but not much in the way of video noise reduction (ala Avisynth/Virtual Dub quality). I suppose it's too much to ask!

But then, how cheap would it be to whack JVC's "Digipure" stuff into a box with S-video/composite "ins" and "outs"?

[ocean]

Your problem is bad tracking on your VHS. As far as I know there is only one device in the market that has a tracking control feature.

See the Videographer at
LINK DELETED

Ocean