Taking Recommendations For Capture Cards

[Sterling]

So does that mean if I want to capture a 480x480 MPEG1 SVCD I have to do it under Win98? V-Dub wont capture at that resolution from a BT8x8 card under Win2k?

Sterling

[Roginator]

I wouldn't write off the Creative card. I've captured at 720x480 on a BT848 card using Huffyuv codec, then crunched it down to MPEG-1 at 1950kbps using Avisynth, VirtualDub and TMPGEnc. That takes a lot of disc space and a lot of time.

So far, the results from the Creative card look quite a bit better (aside from some scene change glitches). You need a program to dice, slice and maybe merge the MPEG-2 files, then it's back to Avisynth, VirtualDub and TMPGEnc. It takes less space, but still a lot of time.

Quality on animation is incredible. For $100 it was a pretty good buy.

I'd like to hear how the Visiotek Xtasy Everything setup works. It's $200? Sounds more flexible than the Creative card since it offers AVI and MPEG-1 captures.

[gminnick]

I read in this topic that someone is using a DV camcorder to copy from vcr to computer. I am not knowledgable in the DV camcorder and Firewire arena. When you transfer your video, does the software pull it from the camcorder as though it were an Mpeg1/2 or whatever it uses and save it as a file or does it just pull video and you have to re-compress once on your system? I guess I am asking "how does this work"? Also, can you go straight from VCR to computer without taping onto a DV tape?

[gminnick]

Well, I decided to read up on DV and how it works since these posts got me curious. My question now is: Why doesn't EVERYONE use this? I just read a review of the Dazzle DV-Bridge (which seems to do what a DV Camcorder does for converting analog to digital minus the camcorder part). This seems the near perfect way to convert analog to a digital format and save on your computer for editing. Practically nothing bad was said about it. So, for $299, why would someone want anything else? Like others, I have read and researched capture cards til I am green, but have never gotten that "warm fuzzy" for any one card. Whether you use a DV Camcorder or the DV-Bridge, this seems to be the best solution. Especially for the price. Am I missing something here? I have only researched DV for one day and am still new.

Gary

[Sterling]

If I understand correctly, if you get a Dazzle DV-Bridge, you STILL have to have a DV source (i.e. a Digital Camcorder) to run through the bridge into your PC. If you have a DV Camcorder already, wouldnt you just want to go buy a firewire port & capture that way? They seem a lot cheaper than the Dazzle DV Bridge.

Well, I decided to start out on the cheaper end of the spectrum and get a Hauppauge WinTV 401 card, but dang, you cant find one anywhere here in town. I guess capture cards were THE thing to get for Christmas. CompUSA had IOMagic PC PVR cards for $39.99 but they only had coax in (no s-video or composite) so Im going to hold out for a card with more input ports.

If I happen upon a Creative Labs card in a store (anyone even SEEN one in a store yet??) I will definitely take a look, but I think I will try a WinTV card and if I dont like the picture quality I will return it and step up to something better.

Thanks!

Sterling

[Valnar]

I haven't read anything good about the Dazzle DV bridge, but yes, the concept is sound. I think SOny has a better product which does the same thing, but is more reliable.

I posted the same question before, and got this answer:

If you convert to DV "on-the-fly" as you capture it to your computer, it will be in DV format. That's not bad, but not great. I think the audio is only 32Khz and the video isn't as pure as a HuffyUV/AVI capture. Of course with AVI, you can capture the audio at 44 or 48Khz, depending on its final destination.

But for ease of use, and if the Dazzle team gets all the bugs worked out, its a good idea. However, buying a digital camcorder is a better idea for a few hundred more dollars because you get something useful out of it afterwards!

Robert

[gminnick]

Sterling, from what I have read, this is for analog to DV. If you have a DV camcorder, you won't need this. This would be good if you can't afford the $600-$800 for a DV camcorder. This item was reviewed and the reviewer left this link to another review: http://www.digitalpostproduction.com/cgi-bin/getframeletter.cgi?/2001/03_mar/reviews/D...e/DVBridge.htm

[Anonymous65]

The Dazzle DV bridge will take anlog video and convert it to DV. However, what will you do with the DV video file??? You can't burn a VCD or SVCD from it. So, for putting video on a cheap medium that can be played on most DVD players and PC's, DV is not any help. DV is for editing and posting video in the digital domain instead of analog. Earlier, "we" used S-VHS and Hi8 editing stations, today we use a DV camera and a PC. However, if you have a one hour show that is on tape and you want to put it on a VCD, DV is not the way to go. First, you have to convert it to DV , and then you have to convert it again to mpeg for burning. If you want to "transfer" video that does not need any editing, but simply for playback purposes, then a hardware mpeg encoder card is the way to go. It takes the analog video and digitizes it, compresses the data according to a standard compression method (mpeg-1/2) and makes a burn compliant file for making a VCD, SVCD or DVD disk.

[markm]

If you're using TiVo to do the recording, why not look into the various hacks to pull the files straight off the TiVo?

Do a search for tivo hacks. I had run across a page done by someone that does this. He claimed the tivo records mpeg2 in almost SVCD format. If I recall, the audio was different. I wondered why he was going through the trouble of re-encoding with TMPGenc, but at the time I found this, this was all new to me, so there might have been a reason.

He had the various quality modes listed and what they equated to for bitrate and resolution. I recall one of them being an SVCD match. Seems like you could demux, fix the audio, remux and burn.

[zzyzzx]

I have found that my 878 card is much better than my 848 card. And for some reason when I use the S-Video input I can captire at 29.97 fps just fine but when using the regular line video input I can maybe only capture at 25 fps. I have no idea why.

[spiderman2k1]

get the dazzle 2 its the best card go to this website to see if it work's with your amd motherboard

http://stop.at/dazzle2

I have a ALl IN Wonder radeon 32DDR its good for games and doing AVI file but to make a SVCD it's a pain in the ass for get about it. Buy a new mother board if your does not work with the dazzle 2

[gminnick]

skittelsen, the reason I was asking about this is because several people seem to be doing this. Let the DV device (DV Cam or Dazzle) handle the compression to DV. You don't have to worry about compatibility with your system. Then, download the file to computer. Encoding to Mpeg is going to have to happen at one point or another. Either on the fly or after the fact. And it seems several people have stated that letting your cpu do the encoding with TMPeng is better than a hardware solution. However, all of this is new to me, so I am trying to piece together what everyone is saying. But the DV way does seem the most compatible, troublefree way of converting analog to digital.

[EricB]

There always seems to be a lot of confusion in this forum on DV so let's see if we can unravel a couple of things.

1. No not limited to 32kHz. Camcorders often have a setting to use 12-bit sound (32kHz) instead of 16-bit sound (48 kHz). Mine is always on 48kHz!

2. The encoding from source to DV is a very "light" compression. The files require about 3.7 MB / second. This is the main drawback; the file sizes get huge very quickly.

3. Results of encoding from DV to mpeg1 or mpeg2 are very, very good. Again the drawback is having to deal with huge files and software encode times. However, I would disagree with any of the posters that say this isn't good quality.

4. The Dazzle Hollywood Bridge takes analog video and converts it to DV. It requires an IEEE-1394 (FireWire) port on your computer. Like all Dazzle products (IMO) it can be flakey. When it works, the results are excellent. It can also convert from DV on the computer back to analog.

5. If you want to do DV conversions, the most practical method is to get a Sony camcorder that is an older generation (ie. not in demand). These can be found on Ebay for $350 - $500. Make sure the model has analog-in. This conversion is bullet-proof, and does not require recording to tape first.

[gminnick]

EricB, Thanks for clearing some things up. Sounds like DV is the easiest and least problematic way to go. You may get large files, but most people I assume are going to convert to Mpeg-1 or Mpeg-2 anyway. Or even Divx. Do all DV Camcorders have straight through recording to the firewire or do some record to tape first. I saw where you mentioned the Sony does and did not know if this was standard or optional on DV Cams.

[TheInformer]

The DVMC-DA1 (or 2) is an encoder by Sony that does analog <--> DV conversions.

You take an analog source (such as VCR, TV, etc) and it will convert it to DV format.
Conversely, you can take DV and convert it back to analog if you desire.

It is very simple to set up the unit and convert back and forth. I've gone
the HuffYUV AVI to MPG route and let me say the DVMC-DA1 route is
so much better all around that I'm sticking with it from now on. There's
very little reason to go back to the headaches.

BTW, DV is a relatively easy format to edit, IMHO. MPEG files are not.

[jtor]

================================================== ========
Do all DV Camcorders have straight through recording to the firewire or do some record to tape first. I saw where you mentioned the Sony does and did not know if this was standard or optional on DV Cams.
================================================== ========
Unfortunately, this is a 'nice' feature (and not a standard) to the digital camcorders. Most Sony (both D8 and miniDV) cams come with this feature, but take note that I used 'most'. So you should be very careful in checking this.

[gminnick]

FYI.. I called Canon and their tech support said none of their cameras record straight through from vcr to firewire. You have to record to tape first. Kind of a bummer, but not unworkable.

[EricB]

Look for analog input with passthrough. I am only familiar with Sony as I was looking for the cheapest way to do this.

I still prefer the camcorder route over the Sony DVMC. The camcorder has obvious uses beyond just converting, plus you can store any files to tape for later conversion to formats like DVD. It may cost a couple of hundred more, but I think it is a great investment.

[TheInformer]

EricB:
I'd agree with you if I already didn't have a JVC MiniDV camcorder
The DV capture file I get from the DVMC-DA1 can go straight to my
camcorder if I want. Unfortunate (for me) is that my camcorder
only has analog *out*, not in.

Just my two cents...

[dumwaldo]

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On 2001-12-28 21:16:30, Roginator wrote:
I'd like to hear how the Visiotek Xtasy Everything setup works. It's $200? Sounds more flexible than the Creative card since it offers AVI and MPEG-1 captures.
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as i posted earlier i did in fact get an xtasy everything. my initial impressions are that it seems to do everything it claims to do. if i sound vaugue it is because i have a slow processor and poor tv signal that i am using so far. also i have somewhat limited capturing experience. i have only captured using the original Dazzle DVC before this. with this disclaimer of stupidity made let me get into the card.

first there is virtually NO documentation with this product in the box. no manuals at all just a basic installation guide that did not even fully cover the installation.

i have an older computer and installation was smooth once i updated my via chipset 4 in 1 driver and agp driver. using the windows add/remove applet i removed my old video card and then installed the new one with few hitches. i had to fail first before i learned that i needed to update my via chipset drivers so i would suggest checking this before you do anything and make sure you have the newest drivers for your motherboard chipset.

ok its installed as is all the bundled software. this is a dual standard VGA out card with a propriatary socket to connect a break out box so it can be connected to @ monitors at once in sever configurations. it can display one desktop over to monitors or duplicat the inage to 2 seperate monitors and more. the break out box makes connections very easy. there is a coaxial cable connector to attach your cable to the tv tuner as well as composite and s-video inputs for direct capturing from a source. all capture modes use the devices WDM driver so third party applications like VirtualDub are supported. it can capture uncompressed or compressed avi through the composite or s-video inputs and MPEG-1 or MPEG-2 through the tv tuner. i have not fully explored so i can not tell you where it hits its bitrate ceiling but it appears to be very high with supplied templates that go up to 6400 Kb/sec and initial test seem to show it can go even higher than that. the resolution goes up to 720x480 in pretty standard increments. the included application Intervideo WinDVR does not seem to support 480x480 however so i have not been able to figure out if it is possible to capture straight to a standard SVCD format. i also did some capping using the composite input with VirtualDub and all seemd to work with no bugs.

so how is the quality? ok here is the catch. my tv signal sucks big time so everything i have capped from it so far has IMO looked grainy but i do not know if this is the fault of my signal or the software. i can say this much however, my Dazzle DVC using the same signal seemed to capture better looking mpegs, but my computer is just a puny p3-533 and the xtasy seems to use much more processor to cap than the Dazzle. the dazzle averaged around 35% CPU usage while the xtasy averages more around 60% CPU usage.

another pitfall i feel is a direct result of my undersized processor is that any capturing above 352x240 drops way to many frames for acceptable quality. when i used the dazzle i did not even have the option of capping any larger than 352x240 and as a result never had any problems with frame drop. again i honestly feel this was the result of my slow computer and not the fault of the video card.

all in all i am very satisfied with my purchase and have found it to be able to do everything it promises free of glitches. there are many nice bonuses bundled into the tv tuner as well. there is a built in online TV guide that easily customizes to your local area and the registration requires relativley no personal information. it is very convenient to have this guide at my fingertips but i have yet to figure out how to make the links for autoprograming work. WinDVR gives you complete tivo like recording features that are fully customizable so you can capture shows in different levels of quality all automatically. when you program a recording the application will launch itself 15 seconds before your programed start time (make sure you dont leave your pc speakers on) then 5 seconds before your start time it will switch itself to the propper channel and at start time it will record. then when it is all done the program shuts. finally i want to mention the time shifting feature. broadcast TV can be played in a time shifting mode that will load a buffer and play a live broadcast stream with a short delay that will allow you to pause a TV show in prograss and pick up exactly where you left off when you unpause then fast forward the commercials to catch up. this is just cool as hell and i have a blast watching tv this way. since i got this i find i often have a tv screen in a 352x240 window (it can be set to always on top) on my desktop while i am chatting on irc or other such activities that can have lulls, like right now when i pause to think of the way to phrase my next thought i can look at this episode of nbc's eXtra program.

tonight is new years eve and represents the end of the holidays and the end of family obligations and other general all around annoying distractions from my computer so in the next week i hope to have enough time to really get into this device and make sure my initial impressions are correct, and dig out some more technical info that what is presented here. so far nothing but smiles with this.

oh one last thing before i go, i really hope to figure out how to make this remote controll do more than make the little red light in the break out box glow, and the break out box and wire are the most horrendous translucent green color that i have ever seen. happy new year to all and catch you next year.


oops forgot to mention i plan to go to radio shack and get something to clean up my cable signal too.
_________________
peace out,
dumwaldo

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: dumwaldo on 2001-12-31 17:14:14 ]</font>

[Sterling]

Ok, here's what I did.

My local CompUSA, Circuit City and Best Buy had ONE type of card left from Christmas, the IOMagic PC PVR. It has the bt8x8 chipset, but it didnt have SVideo inputs, so I waited.

While browsing my local Office Depot I saw they had the Pinnacle PCTV Pro: also the bt8x8 chipset but coax, S-Video and composite inputs. It was $50 so what the hell, I bought it (I know I could have gotten it cheaper off the net but I really want to start capturing stuff).

The included capture software pretty much sucked so I fired up Virtualdub. I had some problems getting sound to capture through my SB Live 5.1 but I finally found the Creative Labs mixer (NOT the Windows mixer) was trying to capture from Mic, not line in. Reset it and audio captured fine.

Picture quality from cable through the Philips tuner was pretty bad. Once I dragged my Digital Cable converter box to my PC and ran the signal through that into the S-Video in port, video quality was very good. I captured a 60 second clip of "Rising Sun" off HBO, converted it to MPEG1 with TMPGEnc and burned it as a VCD and on my 27" Sony TV through my Sony DVD player it looked VERY good.

A question about Virtual dub: For NTSC VCDs is it better to capture at straight 352x240 or 352x480 and do a 2:1 reduction?

Thanks!

Sterling

[networkswiz]

Well, Sterling, here's my experience: I have 3 video computers running AMD 1.33 GHz, with 2 MSI boards and an ECS. The Dazzle works sometime on the MSI boards. Notice the word SOMETIME. It works now, then you restart the next day, and it won't work. I had to reinstall the driver for the Dazzle DVC II, and SOMETIME it works again. Still don't understand why.
I put the DVC II into the ECS board and the secondary channel just disappears: No CD-ROM drive at all. No amount of praying can bring back the CD-ROM drive.
This card is a pain with VIA chipsets. But when it works, man the video is great. I burned several VCDs with it and the video is very sharp, even sharper than what I get from a Pinnacle DV 500 with Adobe Premiere.
Hope that helps

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On 2001-12-27 01:33:57, Sterling wrote:
disturbed1: After looking at the samples you got from the Dazzle DVCII, that looks like a pretty sweet card. Im concerned about what the Dazzle website says about not supporting AMDs though. Their web page says they dont support several of the Via 133 Mhz chipsets. I have an ECS K7S5A that uses the SiS 735 (266 Mhz) chipset. I've already emailed them to see if theyve tested them together yet. If anyone else has done so, PLEASE let me know what happened!


Thanks!

Sterling

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