Should I upgrade my VCR from a JVC Hr-S9911u to an older

[etecnifibre]

Here is more comparison in the video. This one addresses the missed frames. This is from an original tape from the 1985-1986 season. The one tape has 5 games on it.

With the JVC:
http://portfolio.iu.edu/jcdicken/JVC-IowaSt.wmv

With the Panasonic:
http://portfolio.iu.edu/jcdicken/Panasonic-IowaSt.wmv

[davideck]

The fluctuations at the very bottom of the JVC image may indicate tracking difficulties. I notice that the bottom of the Panasonic image is much more stable.

The Panasonic audio is also better than the JVC. It sounds as if the Panasonic is playing back the Hi-Fi audio track while the JVC is playing back the linear audio track...

[lordsmurf]

The JVC can be altered to hifi, linear, or a mix. I use this all the time, very handy. Go into the menu and change it, or just use the AUDIO MONITOR button on the remote.

[robroth]

That's a pretty amazing difference. I was torn between the JVC and Panasonic. Everything I've read either says they are comparable, or the JVC is better. Clearly at least in this one instance, the Panasonic blows the JVC away.

A little off topic, but let me ask this, would spending the money buying a used $50 SVHS deck and a TBC-1000 make more sense than spending $300 on either of these decks (for purposes of capturing 15-20 year old oxidized tapes made with a camcorder).

[lordsmurf]

Here is more comparison in the video. This one addresses the missed frames. This is from an original tape from the 1985-1986 season. The one tape has 5 games on it.

Tracking error on the JVC. Manually fix it. If it cannot be corrected, then this suggests one of two things: (1) The JVC is out of alignment and the tape is fine. (2) The Panasonic is out of alignment and so was the tape when recorded.

Clearly at least in this one instance, the Panasonic blows the JVC away.

I'm not seeing that even remotely. What we're seeing here are imperfect tapes on equipment with yet-unidentified correct values in alignment and functionality. It would be far too pre-mature to suggest one is better than the other in this limited high-variable online clip test.

All we can say for sure is something is causing these tapes to react slightly better on the Panasonic than the JVC. But you still cannot escape the fact that these tapes generally look like shit both ways.

[davideck]

Clearly at least in this one instance, the Panasonic blows the JVC away.

I agree. The two comparisons in this thread illustrate two independent VCR characteristics. The first comparison demonstrates the built in TBC performance. The second comparison demonstrates the VCR Tracking performance.

In both of these demonstrations, the Panasonic performance is clearly superior to the JVC. The tapes used during these comparisons may in fact be quite marginal at best, but that just helps to illustrate the performance differences between the two machines. Pristine recordings might look about the same on both VCRs.

A little off topic, but let me ask this, would spending the money buying a used $50 SVHS deck and a TBC-1000 make more sense than spending $300 on either of these decks (for purposes of capturing 15-20 year old oxidized tapes made with a camcorder).

Depending upon your capture device, you may find that an external TBC is necessary to avoid audio/video skew. My TBC-3000 is essential for capturing through my Hauppauge PVR-250 with any of my VCRs, including my two JVC TBC/DNR machines (HR-S7600 and HR-S9600).

However, as I stated earlier in this thread, if the Panasonic built in TBC provides uninterrupted sync, then the Panasonic VCR may well provide the same functionality of a JVC TBC/DNR VCR AND an external TBC.

Can anyone confirm this? Has anyone noticed audio/video skew when capturing with a Panasonic VCR with built in TBC?

[etecnifibre]

I had about 10 games listed that had imperfections that I just couldn't fix. With my Panasonic, I've been able to erase nearly all of the notes in parenthesis, jumpy video, skipped frames, static, tracking lines, etc.

Lordsmurf, wasn't sure if you got my PM. There is one tape I can't get to work. It's really crappy. Could you PM me with the info to get the tape to you?

Davideck, you are correct about the better recordings looking about the same. I plan to continue to use my JVC on tapes that I don't have problems with.

[Wile_E]

The fluctuations at the very bottom of the JVC image may indicate tracking difficulties. I notice that the bottom of the Panasonic image is much more stable.

I thought the bottom flucuations were always normal for all VHS captures? Most people on here always refered to them as "head switching noise". But if the Panasonic gets rid of this noise, then that's a plus. That means no masking/cropping of it, when converting to DVD. You retain the full frame. I still would like to see a better quality tape used for capture. Like a store-bought tape or a DVD recorded to a high-quality vhs tape.

This makes me want to get a 1980 for myself, to compare it to my 9911. I like how the Panasonic 1980 has a slider control for the NR, so you can adjust the sharpness/softness. Plus the Panasonic has a REAL JOG DIAL unlike the cheap plastic one on my 9911. How is the build quality overall of the Panasonic? Cheap thin plastic shell, or a quality shell? The 9911 has a thin metal outer casing. My Quasar VHS VCR has a much better build quality than my JVC. And it still provides good picture. I think Panasonic made Quasar.

[davideck]

I thought the bottom flucuations were always normal for all VHS captures? Most people on here always refered to them as "head switching noise".

Yes, the head switching noise is normal.
But the position of the head switch seemed to be fluctuating up and down on the JVC. I didn't even notice a head switch on the Panasonic.

I am also tempted by the 1980. If I buy another VCR, that's what it will be.

[Wile_E]

So how much memory is used for the frame buffer? The only thing it says is 8bit memory circuit, which doesn't mean a thing. Is this 4MB like the JVC or more memory? It is amazing there is no head switching noise at the bottom of the Panasonic capture! Perfect for capturing! How come JVC, the so-called "Inventors of VHS" can't make a VCR without this noise? Is the Panasonic masking the switching noise internally? The link below says the DS850 masks the switching noise. So maybe this VCR does it too?

Panasonic DS850 S-VHS Editing VCR
http://cgi.ebay.com/Panasonic-DS850-Svhs-Video-Recorder_W0QQitemZ7577118628QQcategoryZ...QQcmdZViewItem

[davideck]

My guess is that the JVC is head switching too early, such that the switching noise shows up in the clip. The Panasonic is probably head switching at a later location, somewhere below the image captured in the clips. If so, then head switching noise may still be visible on the Panasonic.

I don't think that the amount of memory is too important. I have not yet noticed a difference between my 7600 (2 MB) and my 9600 (4 MB) JVC VCRs. I am much more impressed by the performance of the Panasonic Field TBC, regardless of how much memory it has.

As a reference point, one Frame of 4:2:2 video (720x480) is less than 1 MB.

[gshelley61]

So how much memory is used for the frame buffer? The only thing it says is 8bit memory circuit, which doesn't mean a thing. Is this 4MB like the JVC or more memory? It is amazing there is no head switching noise at the bottom of the Panasonic capture! Perfect for capturing! How come JVC, the so-called "Inventors of VHS" can't make a VCR without this noise? Is the Panasonic masking the switching noise internally? The link below says the DS850 masks the switching noise. So maybe this VCR does it too?

Panasonic DS850 S-VHS Editing VCR
http://cgi.ebay.com/Panasonic-DS850-Svhs-Video-Recorder_W0QQitemZ7577118628QQcategoryZ...QQcmdZViewItem

I have a JVC SR-W5U analog high definition W-VHS format VCR (it also is a studio quality VHS and S-VHS machine). It has a built-in full frame TBC with DNR, and has no head switching noise at the bottom of the frame, either. Of course, it was a $5,000 unit when it was new... in any case, it has the best VHS playback picture I've ever seen. Even better than the professional broadcast S-VHS machines from JVC and Panasonic that I have checked out.

They pop up on eBay every once in a while. There is also the SR-W7U, which followed the SR-W5U. The W-VHS format never caught on, with only limited success in the medical imaging field.

[robroth]

nice machine, there's two up on ebay now. too rich for my casual use .

[gshelley61]

Yeah, I got mine from a guy who didn't know what it was (or if it even worked) for cheap. I took a chance and really lucked out on that deal.

Here's several 720x480 frame grabs from the Titanic VHS played back on the SR-W5U, captured with a fairly new Toshiba D-R4 DVD recorder... they are not re-sized to 4:3, so they look a little stretched horizontally.

[Wile_E]

I still see some very slight distortion at the bottom of those caps. But it's way better than what I have with my JVC 9911. For a Christmas gift to myself, I may just have to buy something to replace my 9911. The Panasonic and other "Professional" built-like-a-tank models on Ebay, are looking better every day. Even if they are used and old. I want detailed and clean captures. I didn't know it could get better than the JVC 9911. I was wrong.

Does anyone know anything about these models? Panasonic and JVC has manuals on their website for older models, but they don't mention when the VCR was built. The manuals aren't grouped by year of production.

JVC BR-S822U
http://cgi.ebay.com/JVC-BR-S822U-S-VHS-video-recorder-editor-player-c_W0QQitemZ7576363...QQcmdZViewItem

JVC BR-S622U
http://cgi.ebay.com/JVC-BR-S622U-Video-Recorder-Player-SVHS-svhsc-svhs-c_W0QQitemZ7577...QQcmdZViewItem

Sony SLV-R1000
http://cgi.ebay.com/Sony-S-VHS-and-Hi8-Editing-Recorder-Decks-w-Remotes_W0QQitemZ58481...QQcmdZViewItem


Sony SVO-2100
http://cgi.ebay.com/Sony-SVO-2100-Professional-VHS-SVHS-Stereo-VCR-NEW_W0QQitemZ757551...QQcmdZViewItem

Panasonic AG-DS545
http://cgi.ebay.com/Panasonic-AG-DS545-S-VHS-Edit-TBC-VCR-RS-422-Warr_W0QQitemZ7575677...QQcmdZViewItem

[gshelley61]

Keep in mind that at-home use of the 50 lb. broadcast video decks is pretty impractical for most home video hobbyists. Not only are they very large and heavy, but using them will require some specialized connectors, adapters, and/or a professional audio mixing board. For example, most JVC broadcast machines use a special heavy duty 7-pin s-video "dub" connector. You will need adapter cables to use that with the small 4-pin s-video connectors found on consumer gear. The broadcast machines also use balanced XLR professional audio connectors and output levels. You will need adapters and/or a mixing board for that.

Broadcast video machines are designed and built with sturdiness and reliability primarily in mind. They are engineered to run many thousands of hours, and to be easily maintained and repaired by broadcast video technicians. Video image quality, while certainly important, is not as critical in these units as you might think. Plus, it is doubtful whether your local VCR repair guy will be able to service machines like this, or have access to repair manuals and parts for them.

I would advise that you stick with high end consumer or "prosumer" machines. They are much easier to deal with and use.

[Seeker47]

Yeah, I got mine from a guy who didn't know what it was (or if it even worked) for cheap. I took a chance and really lucked out on that deal.

Here's several 720x480 frame grabs from the Titanic VHS played back on the SR-W5U, captured with a fairly new Toshiba D-R4 DVD recorder... they are not re-sized to 4:3, so they look a little stretched horizontally.]

You said these were standard VHS frames, not SVHS -- right ? The visual quality is impressive.

For someone not as lucky as you were with the condition of an Ebay purchase, is it hard to get these properly checked out and competently serviced these days ? That can start to become a factor with some models of older-technology electronics. Any parts availability issues ?

[gshelley61]

The higher quality consumer and "prosumer" machines, that aren't too old, will probably continue to have good parts availability for some time. I've had a couple of Panasonic AG-1970 and Sony SVO-2000 machines serviced recently at a local repair facility with no problems.

Yep, that's the store-bought VHS release of Titanic those caps were made from...

[davideck]

gshelley61 -

Do you have access to an oscilloscope or a waveform monitor?
Would you be willing to check for uninterrupted sync on your TBC outputs?

[gshelley61]

gshelley61 -

Do you have access to an oscilloscope or a waveform monitor?
Would you be willing to check for uninterrupted sync on your TBC outputs?

I don't have access to either test instrument. I suspect the SR-W5U does send uninterrupted sync because I've never had a problem with dropped frames or other capturing hiccups when using this machine, even with copy protected tapes. Rock solid. The switch is labeled "629 TBC" if that provides any clues...

[davideck]

Thanks anyway, gshelley61.
Would you say that your AG-1970s were as rock solid?
Were there instances when an external TBC solved a capturing problem for you?

[gshelley61]

To be honest, I haven't converted very many rough or EP mode VHS tapes. Most of my conversions have involved decent quality sources. However, I do have one VHS tape that is a collection of banned cartoons (for race and war content) that is pretty bad in some spots due to the multi-generational nature of the tape. I've had to use an external TBC (a Feral A4:2:2) on some of the cartoons on that tape to get a good capture.

The AG-1970 is a well made unit, and the TBC works pretty well. However, it does not defeat copy protection, being a half-frame TBC.

[davideck]

I think that Macrovision is defeated by simply blanking out the affected line(s) in the vertical interval. I would expect all consumer VCRs with TBCs to preserve the macrovision signal in order to prevent pirating.

Interesting to note that the industrial broadcast VCRs with built in TBCs would likely provide the same functionality of a JVC TBC/DNR SVHS VCR and a DataVideo TBC in terms of uninterrupted sync.

[MeekloBraca]

I have a JVC 7600 and its crap. a 75 dollar Panasonic VCR thats sitting in my hotel does a better playback than the JVC. For one thing the Panasonic tracking is almost flawless on the really bad tapes, on the JVC the tracking of the same tape is way off even with the TBC on.

[Tom81]

The build quality of the Panny 1960 and 1970 is considerably superior to that of the 1980. They may have upped the specs for the 1980, but they got cheaper with the tape transport system.
I can "feel" this immediately when editing/shuttling with these machines.
The 1960 has a professional silky smooth solid shuttle feel to it whereas the 1980 shuttles more like my Sony consumer VHS unit.

[davideck]

The build quality of the Panny 1960 and 1970 is considerably superior to that of the 1980. They may have upped the specs for the 1980, but they got cheaper with the tape transport system.
I can "feel" this immediately when editing/shuttling with these machines.
The 1960 has a professional silky smooth solid shuttle feel to it whereas the 1980 shuttles more like my Sony consumer VHS unit.

How do they compare picture quality wise?

[vhelp]

pfew.. finally found this topic with the VHS and Titanic samples

@ gshelley61

Do you still have a Beta format VCR (or super beta vcr) ??

I don't think that anyone else here has one, but you. And I was hoping
that you could run a new test scenario. Unforuntately, there was no
clear way of starting a new topic for this, which I would prefer. Maybe
we could consider it, if something comes out of this.

-vhelp 3951

[gshelley61]

pfew.. finally found this topic with the VHS and Titanic samples

@ gshelley61

Do you still have a Beta format VCR (or super beta vcr) ??

I don't think that anyone else here has one, but you. And I was hoping
that you could run a new test scenario. Unforuntately, there was no
clear way of starting a new topic for this, which I would prefer. Maybe
we could consider it, if something comes out of this.

-vhelp 3951

Actually, I don't have a Beta machine. Sometimes I do see some nice looking older Beta and Super Beta units on eBay, though. They generally sell at a premium, being that they are relatively rare now.

[vhelp]

Evening everyone.

gshelley61,

Thanks to davideck for reminding me of this thread. I was reading around
as usual and in one of his responses, he pointed to this thread. I must admit,
I'm curious about the Panasonic that he was talking about. But, I didn't see
any demos of pics. So natually, I'm curious. Anyways.


You know, I had lost this thread and time went by as usual, till now.. I still had
a few questions I wanted to throw at you..

Here's several 720x480 frame grabs from the Titanic VHS played back on the
JVC SR-W5U, captured with a fairly new Toshiba D-R4 DVD recorder...
they are not re-sized to 4:3, so they look a little stretched horizontally.

Ok, here's what I *think* might be considered, clues..

What I think did it for *that* successful demonstration was the build-in
hardware filter of the Toshiba D-R4 dvd recorder, which seemed to
really clean up the chroma crosstalk seen in every VHS capture, unless I
am in error, and that its not the D-R4 that gave a clean output (the pics)
but rather, the JVC SR-W5U vcr did.


Q1: Have you made any attempts to test weather or not *who* is responsible
for the actual picture quality -- the JVC SR-W5U or Toshiba D-R4 ??

I think that its important, because, to say that one (or the other) is
responsible for the quality wouldn't be fair. And, I would like to know
if you have done any tests to identify weather the JVC was the soul source,
or was it the Toshiba (with its built-in hardware filters) the source of
the resulting picture quality.

Then again, perhaps it was a combination of both, working in concert, that
game the overall good picture quality in those demonstrations above. A
further test run with *other* equipment would help to narrow down the
clues. I'm curious.


Q2: Can you run further demonstrations (using the Titantic VHS as the model)
(ie, the Panasonic) and the Toshiba, so that we may judge the quality aspects ??

-vhelp 4135

[gshelley61]

The D-R4 doesn't have any video noise filters on the input (recording) side. Just a frame synchronizer. The clean image you see there is all from the SR-W5U. It has a full frame TBC and several really excellent video noise filters. It's especially good at dealing with chroma noise.

The SR-W5U units are actually W-VHS analog high definition video recorders (they can record a 1920x1080i YPbPr component video signal) and were over $5K when new. Their outstanding VHS and S-VHS capabilities are just bonus features to their primary design purpose (HD recording).

I don't have all the VCR's around here that I once had on hand, but I can assure you that of all the high end S-VHS VCR's I've tried, none had quite as good of a picture as the SR-W5U. The closest one I remember was a Panasonic broadcast S-VHS machine that I had for awhile... the AG-7750. That one was pretty darn good. I've had several nice AG-1970 units (they preceded the AG-1980)... they were OK, but did not handle chroma noise very well. The JVC machines with TBC/DNR have the best chroma noise suppression from what I've seen.

Some of the video noise filters in DVD recorders are pretty decent, too.