Some questions about the Pioneer hard drive recorders.

[Bridge]

I'm looking at the Pioneer hard drive records. I think they are the 533 and 633, but there are a couple of things I can't figure out:

1) I see that it reads and writes the - R/RW format but I don't see that it reads the +R/RW format. Do these units read the +R/RW format disks or only the -R/RW format? If so, can the +R/RW be brought over to the hard drive or just read?

2) I think I read that it records at 15 mbps to the hard drive. Can you burn to a disk at that bitrate or does it have to downgrade to 10 mpbs when it goes to a disk?

[mattso]

Hi Bridge,

1) These Pioneers are DVD-R/RW only.

2) No, you can't burn a disk at XP+ (15Mbs).

[FulciLives]

It only records to DVD-R and DVD-RW but I never tried to play back a DVD+R or DVD+RW ... playback might be possible but recording ... no.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[trhouse]

Just for fun, I tried playback with these disks. One Ritek X8 dvd+r, one Verbatim X8, dvd+r, and one Ritek X4, dvd+rw. All played but the Ritek X8 dvd+r stuttered on playback, the other two disks were fine.

15 Mbs cannot be recorded to dvd. It violates the maximum bitrate allowed under the dvd specification.

[edit] the "backup" function which high speed copies the disk to hard drive and then to another dvd did not work with any of the + media.

[Bridge]

Thanks, at least I found out that you can't record at 15 mbps and transfer over at that rate.

I also learned that it is not "suppose to" work with + media only -. Problem is that apparantly + media "might" work. I would hate to spend all that money and find out that it doesn't play back any of my + media. I know my Panasonic doesn't play back any + media and my vcr/dvd burner combo only plays back certain ones when it feels like it. I think it does TDK sometimes. You know, you put a + disk in and it reads it. Then you put the same + disk in and is says it can't read it or no media is in the player.

So, now I don't know what to do? I would like to have had a hard drive recorder that can at least read all the formats. I have to totally re-think about what to do with the Pioneer. I need to also find my first computer DVD burner. Maybe if I can find one that works I can rip my + media and convert it digitally to - media so that the Pioneer will play it back. I was just hoping that it could have read it and ripped it to the hard drive on its own.

Thanks all for answering my questions and trying out the + media too.

[FulciLives]

What ever possessed you to use + media to begin with! :P

If you can get a computer DVD burner that does bitsetting then you can bitset your DVD+R discs to DVD-ROM and that tends to make them more easily playable. That might do the trick and save you the time of converting them all to -R discs (which is a bit insane to do unless we are only talking a few).

The other option is to buy a cheap DVD player that you know (due to research) is capable of playing +R discs and use it as a player and then save the recorder for just recording (it might last longer that way as well).

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[mattso]

My old Pioneer burner is not meant to read DVD+R, but I successfully ripped a DVD+R disk via Decrypter no worries. So who knows!

[OldeMan]

I have a lot of DVD+R media from other DVD recorders and my PC. I perfer to use DVD+R bitset to DVD-ROM. I think DVD+R has better error checking designed in. That should start a flame war...

I also have a Pioneer 531H recorder and I like it. As described above, it does not write DVD+R or DVD+RW media, however I have not had any problem with it reading DVD+R/RW media from my other sources.

I wish the Pioneer would support DVD+R DL as they are readily available and work fine on my PC. I have yet to see a DVD_R DL in any B&M store and only a very expensive few on-line...
ymmv 8)

[tonemgub]

My Pioneer 220 plays all +R media I have. If you look up the Pioneer player/recorders, you will see that 90% of them play +R's. The one's that don't have less than 20 comments, so that may be innacurate. So I doubt that any newer model would not be able to play +R's. What I would like to know is can you edit out commcercials, and record in video mode? Notice I said video mode. I know that you can in VR mode.

[FulciLives]

What I would like to know is can you edit out commcercials, and record in video mode? Notice I said video mode. I know that you can in VR mode.

Yes you can edit out commercials in VIDEO MODE. I only use VIDEO MODE. You can do FRAME ACCURATE editing but it will re-encode (OK if you record to the HDD in XP+ mode but otherwise don't re-encode). You can edit on GOP spots and not have to re-encode but then your editing is only accurate within 15 frames so you can't edit just anywhere.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[trhouse]

A slight correction to the above. It is possible to choose frame accurate editing to erase a section but the frame accuracy will not be preserved if high speed copied to a video mode dvd from the hard drive. It is preserved if high speed copied to a VR mode disk or in non-high speed mode which results in re-encode.

[mattso]

A slight correction to the above. It is possible to choose frame accurate editing to erase a section but the frame accuracy will not be preserved if high speed copied to a video mode dvd from the hard drive. It is preserved if high speed copied to a VR mode disk or in non-high speed mode which results in re-encode.

Actually, that's not a "correction", but an "elaboration"!

:P

[FulciLives]

A slight correction to the above. It is possible to choose frame accurate editing to erase a section but the frame accuracy will not be preserved if high speed copied to a video mode dvd from the hard drive. It is preserved if high speed copied to a VR mode disk or in non-high speed mode which results in re-encode.

Actually, that's not a "correction", but an "elaboration"!

:P

Thank you ... I thought the same myself.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[trhouse]

I need to correct my elaboration.

"You can do FRAME ACCURATE editing but it will re-encode"

I was going to say that it is possible to choose and do frame accurate editing and not have a re-encode by choosing high speed copy but the frame accuracy would not be preserved.

[Bridge]

A couple more things I'm wondering about the Pioneer 533-633.

1) If I record something on the hard drive in XP quality and then later move it on to DVD what bit rate is it? I mean, with my Panasonic I record at XP and it goes on the hard drive at about 10 mbps. Then when I move it over to disk it gets an hour in XP quality. Now, what's the deal with the XP+? If I record something in XP mode on the Pioneer does it record at the XP+ 15mbps level and then it has to downgrade to get on to disk; or can I record something in XP mode at 10 mbps and then have it transfer over at 10 mbps and fill up an hour at XP quality? Bascially, does the Pioneer have both an XP mode (10 mbps) and an XP+ mode (15 mbps) or is XP mode on the Pioneer really the XP+ mode? I really don't want to have to down convert something I record at XP quality. I would like for it to record at XP and transfer over at the same bit rate.

2) Does the Pioneer hard drive have a smooth scan when you go through the hard drive for editing or does the picture skip frames as you fast foward during editing? My Panasonic has a smooth video scan. The video doesn't skip frames as you fast forward, reverse. Yet, my Toshiba DVD player does skip frames as it fast fowards. One push skips 1 second, two pushes skips every 3 seconds, etc. So, when I'm fast fowarding I'm loosing from 1-3 seconds of video. 4 or 5 pushes skips 1 minute and like 10 minutes. So, if there something that I want to edit or look at my Toshiba would never show it because it is between those seconds but the Panasonic will because it has smooth scanning that shows every second of the video that is on the hard drive.

[trhouse]

The 533 XP+ and XP modes are distinct modes. The XP mode is dvd-video compliant so you can do just what you described. The XP+ is not dvd-video compliant so it must be converted to XP or any of the other available modes to be made dvd-video compliant.

The Panasonic actually fast forwards through every frame? Which Panasonic model is this? The Pioneer does not. The Pioneer was tested with a security system in which the the video was time stamped every second. It has four fast forward/back speeds. Scan 1 through 4. Scan 1 preserves audio and is about X1.5, scan 2 is about X12, scan 3 is X28, and scan 4 is X90. The security monitor time stamp skipped forward in the tests with the time clearly readable down to a aecond for an instant at every scan speed. If it were showing each frame, the time stamp would have appeared to blurr as the speed increased.

[FulciLives]

Another note about the XP+ mode.

When you COPY the XP+ recorded program to a DVD-R or DVD-RW there is an option called OPTIMISE in which it will re-encode at a bitrate to "fill" the DVD disc.

It's great for 2 hour TV shows. I can do frame accurate editing and usually (with a 2 hour show) you are left with about 90 minutes. So when you COPY to a DVD disc it will record to fit the 90 minutes "perfectly".

That's pretty darn kewl.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[strongbad]

It will play +R media, but it will not burn them even if the booktype is set to dvd-rom. it won't recognize it. I've tried. It's unfortunate, because DL DVD+R go for $19.95 for a 10pk, while the DL DVD-R goes for $15.00 for a 3pk.

[TBoneit]

FWIW I havethe 531h and it plays back the Memorex (Ritek) +R DL disks I have burned in my computer just fine. I do not generally use it to play DVDs, but my Sony plays some +R DLs ok and others not... seems to depend on the source, the only ones it played were 1 to 1 backups not authored ones. Whereas the 531h plays both 1 to 1 and authored OK.

Cheers

edit: the Sony hiccups at the layer change whereas the Pioneer you never know it changed layers. I need to get a proper DL authoring s/w.

[Bridge]

Well, I don't know if plays back every frame during fast forward (I'm talking about video recorded on the HDD) but is sure looks like it. Panasonic calls it "smooth scan" or something like that. It looks like when you fast foward a Tivo unit. The fast foward on a Tivo is smooth, you see the whole video, the minutes count 1, 2, 3, etc. There is not giant frame skipping of many seconds on a Tivo. Even if it does it you don't see it. You see a smooth picture scan where it looks like you can see the whole recorded video. The Panasonic does the same thing. Well, at least my E80 does. Maybe they changed that but I dobut it.

[Bridge]

Hey, how loud is the hard drive on these units?

I'm looking around the net for the best prices and there are tons of review from people who hate the hard drive saying that it super noisy. They say that the TV guide function is constantly running looking for updates and that is also causing the hard drive to run real loud. While I read that some turned TV guide off some people are saying that you can't turn off the TV guide function. Because of that you can't get the hard drive to be quite. I can't seem to find any place that will give you your money back if you don't like something like a super loud drive. Everyone seems to give you store credit, 7 days unopened, won't accept Pioneer returns, etc. I can't seem to find a 30 money back, no questions asked type of place for these units. If I can't find one of them, and I get a super loud hard drive that runs 20 out of 24 hours constantly, I guess I might have to skip this one.

So, is the hard drive real loud?

Can you turn off the TV Guide function so the hard drive isn't running all of the time?

[strongbad]

edit: the Sony hiccups at the layer change whereas the Pioneer you never know it changed layers. I need to get a proper DL authoring s/w.

interesting you say that because the DL I burned using the 533, it freezes at the layer change for a second or 2 then resumes to the 2nd layer. can't miss it. Same happens on my computer. Not happy about that at all.

[Seeker47]

Yes you can edit out commercials in VIDEO MODE. I only use VIDEO MODE. You can do FRAME ACCURATE editing but it will re-encode (OK if you record to the HDD in XP+ mode but otherwise don't re-encode). You can edit on GOP spots and not have to re-encode but then your editing is only accurate within 15 frames so you can't edit just anywhere.

The defaults I set on the 520 were to use Video Mode, Frame Accurate Off; nearly all Copies from the HDD to DVD are done in the High Speed setting. I think it was something in the manual that led me to not go with Frame Accurate, but I don't recall now. I'm not sure just what I'm missing by not having Frame Accurate enabled: I seem to cut things right at the spot where I wanted to, and most of the time it looks quite clean to me. Occasionally there's a very fleeting trace of something left which could have been cut tighter, but it's usually pretty negligible. (I'd rather leave a tiny bit too much than trim anything too much.) If this is re-encoding, the results still look good to me. Either I'm getting fairly good at this, or 15 frames doesn't amount to much. But like I said, it generally comes out quite clean, very much in line with what I had in mind.

[DeepOne]

So, is the hard drive real loud?

It isn't "loud", but it is audible when the unit is in standby mode (off) if the EPG is active. It sounds like a computer hard drive might sound when it's being defragmented (it's seek noise). It is louder than the hard drives I currently use in my PCs, but I have had hard drives as loud or louder in the past.

Can you turn off the TV Guide function so the hard drive isn't running all of the time?

Yes. You tell the TV Guide setup that you are in Canada with a zip/postal code of A0A0A0. Then, you make sure that you always keep a manual timer setting scheduled. If you don't normally keep regular recordings set, you can add one to record in 2010 or something like that.

[trhouse]

I took a surveillance dvd created from the Pioneer hard drive and played it back in the Pioneer and a Panasonic ES10 tonight. The dvd disk skips ahead in both. That might be due to optical vs magnetic drive access time. Does your E80 do that too or will "smooth scan" work on a dvd? In Scan 4 mode, it appears the Pioneer jumps are about one minute apart.

I have a monitor with composite output and feed that to the Pioneer so the Pioneer is not connected directly to cable. The EPG is on but it never tries to download. This Pioneer has a Western Digital hard drive but I have seen a Pioneer 420H with a Maxtor drive and that was noisier. I am not sure if the same model might ship with different brands of hard drives.

[gwoiler]

I have mine set to USA 00000 and have programs set on timer. Some times when I shut it off it goes into EPG mode and I turn it back on and then off again and then it shuts off. This is the stupidest way to package a product. I had tried 5 other DVR's and the Pioneer was the first to give me enough control over black levels, AND also be duplicatable with half way decent menuing. Most of these units were not copyable. They were not writing tracks correctly. But I never tried a Sony. That would have been my next bet. For the guy wanting a trial period... go to Circuit City, or Best Buy, or Fred Meyers, and you can return withing a few weeks to 30 days. I felt bad bringing all these units back! I tried, GOVIDEO, PHILLIPS, TOSHIBA, JVC, and SAMSUNG. Also... the hard drive is not anoying, other than the fact that since I live off the grid and use solar and generator for electricity, I want it off when it is supposed to be off. If you want it quieter... cover the top with something. But it would be nice if Pioneer came out with another firmware that disables the TVGuide completely with a basic menu layout. I wonder if there is a way to petition that?

Glenn

[Leoslocks]

I have mine set to USA 00000

I think you need to set it to Canada A0A0A0.

The "Defragging" anology is quite appropriate. The noise in EPG mode is too much for sleeping areas as it does its seeking around midnight. It bothers the cat as well as the wife.

[gwoiler]

Here is a really good question... I really need to know this....

We bought, here at work... the same unit; 533H/S like I have at home. I have done the setup I believe exactly the same. But there is one slight difference that bugs me. On my unit at home, when you go in to the innitial setup, the center column reads from the top: Clock Settings, Help Setting, Setup Navigater. OK... here at work I can go in to the clock and pick auto or manual. I can go in to manual and set the clock. At home. The clock setting in the center colunm is greyed out as is the auto and manual sellections on the right. The only way I can set the clock is to go thru the complete channel setup and let it scan the channels to pick them. How can I get back the ability to manually set the clock without having to jump through all the hoops? Is this different firmware?

Thanks, Glenn

[trhouse]

I have a 531. The clock setting and setup Navigator are both greyed out just like you said but only if it is recording. As soon as I stop recording they are not greyed out.

[gwoiler]

Nope... mine is greyed out all the time.