Forbes Magazine says Madagascar WAS a true RIPGuard disc

[mbellot]

Each back up made of a DVD is a lost sale.

Not true. What about those people copying to media shift? You can't play a DVD in your PSP (or other portable media device), and they haven't released (pick a movie or TV show) in PSP format yet, so you encode it yourself.

While the media shift may (or may not depending on numerous factors) be illegal, you simply can't argue a loss of revenue.

So because it's not available in your chosen media especially a newer form you should have the right to violate the law and do as you please?

No, you are not paying attention. I was simply stating that it will in no way be a lost sale, as you claimed when you said each backup is a lost sale. The legality of it is left up to your local government.

How many here have admitted to backing up hundreds if not thousands of titles? Check the P2P networks. Check the seeds for torrents. Each one of those is a lost sale.

But each one also represents at least one sale. :P

really? so each person seeding a torrent has purchased the title being shared? I don't think you comprehend the concept if you believe that to be true.

Once again, you missed the point (intentionally?).

If the file is there that means at least one sale was completed.

You can't say you wouldn't buy it or pay to see it, then steal it and watch it, and claim you've done no damage because you had no intent to purchase anyways. If this were true, we could just walk into a show room, take a car for a test drive and never return. When the cops show up at your door try explaining to them you never intended to buy it.

Anothe poor analogy. A better one would be stealing computer software since its approximately the same (no intrinsic value, its not real property).

So real property has value and software doesn't? You obviously have never been to a software studio house.

Again a missed point. I develop software as a part of my job, so believe me I understand it has value. Its just not equatable to physical property.

Steal a car and bootleg a copy of Windows XP, then see which ones lands you in jail faster.

That's the losses reported. Even if you just count a few people here you can add up thousands of dollars in lost revenue by theft of sales.

The losses reported are made up. They are at best a guess at trying to quantify something that cannot truly be measured. Another reason to use software for your analogy, since the BSA loss estimates are just as made up as those provided by the RIAA and the MPAA.

They might be some guessimation involved but it's based on real world facts. Simply search for a harry potter and the goblet of fire torrents and see how many seeds there are. Multiply those seeds by the price at your movie complex. That's just one location(file) where theft is occuring on a single movie.

No, its just a guess based on how much they feel like they are being ripped off because they thought they should have made more money.

Just like any other corporation that makes fiscal projections, its a guess. You can't predict the future, you can only project the past and present forward. Unfortunately the real world rarely co-operates with such a simple outlook.

[Rich86]

I believe bugster's first point is right on. This thread started as a discussion related to the Macrovision "ripguard" protected dvd release of Madagascar.
If Macrovision has truly put out a compatible product, that dvd should play properly on every properly functioning standalone player and computer drive/program player combination. I expect these companies have a right to try to sell whatever, but they also have a responsibility to warn their customers about what they are getting. Ask Sony about this concept - they still don't seem to get it. But they will.
If "Ripguard" is effective and worthwhile, the sales figures for Madagascar should be through the roof. To accomplish that, I suggest Macrovision starts sending folks like ROF over to a different website or out the door to a local retailer to start buying up copies of Madagascar post haste.

[RottenFoxBreath]

in my movie watching history,theres probably about a handful of movies that warrant a second purchase
no lost sale from me...

Nope no lost sale because the movies are so bad there's no need to even waste money or time on backing it up in your case. This whole subject is a null factor in relation to your feelings about movies and loss of revenue experienced by those who produce the masterpieces today.

it is.they would say,as ive seen it,i should have bought it.
and the line "produce the masterpieces today"---since when...WTF..when was the last "masterpiece"...movies have been going downhill for years,and still they bleat on that they lose money.. they just dont understand.
and macrovisions ripguard....it doesnt frigging work.

[bugster]

My second point is more a question about RipGuard and Sony Arcoss copy protection.
I believe it has been ruled (at least in some markets) that audio CD's with any form of copy protection break the standards for CD-Audio (red book?). In those cases the manufacturers must indicate on the packaging that copy protection is present and may not use the standard CD-Audio logo's. If that is the case, and DVD-Video requires the manufacturers adhere to a similiar standard, does Ripguard break that standard and if so are the manufacturers effectivley selling faulty products under the guise of DVD-Video? Anyone know about this?

Just a thought

In those cases they are or should be NOT allowed to include CDDA (Compact Disc Digital Audio CD) logo on their product.
Not only computer drives with CD logo on them, but also many of the car CD players have problems playing such "audio cd" discs. Basically most of the cd/mp3 players have problem playing such discs.

I dont think they sell "faulty" product this way. More like non-standard product.

OK, maybe faulty was an inaccurate term to use, but the quetion still remains, are DVD's that use Arcoss or Ripguard breaking the standard and so should not be allowed to use the DVD-Video logos etc. And, as I have never purchased such a disk, do they in fact use the various copyrighted logos of the DVD consortium?

[mbellot]

OK, maybe faulty was an inaccurate term to use, but the quetion still remains, are DVD's that use Arcoss or Ripguard breaking the standard and so should not be allowed to use the DVD-Video logos etc. And, as I have never purchased such a disk, do they in fact use the various copyrighted logos of the DVD consortium?

I can't speak to the DVD issue, but I know for certain that Philips (the creator of the Red Book standard) has stated that Audio CDs which deviate from the standard (for any reason, not just copy protection) can't display the CD-DA logo.

Considering the DVD standard was created by a consortium of media and electronic companies I doubt highly that deviation from the standard for copy protection purposes would give them pause.

[mbellot]

and the line "produce the masterpieces today"---since when...WTF..when was the last "masterpiece"...movies have been going downhill for years,and still they bleat on that they lose money.. they just dont understand.

RFB - Not familiar with the saying "One man's trash is another man's treasure"?

Just because you find it to be dreck of the lowest form doesn't mean ROF won't enjoy it. I will leave out obvious examples because BJ_M has already admonished us about being derogatory towards ROF.

[Supreme2k]

Just a couple of argument tips for ROF:

1. Do not compare solid matter to electrons (ie. apples to oranges). You were doing alright with the "lost sale" thing, but don't compare it to armed robbery or theft. Downloading is not the same as breaking into someone's house and stealing their plasma television.

2. Never, ever, ever use the P2P movie argument. Until you can find a working torrent that lets you download a 50' x 30' screen w/ surround sound on 70mm and stadium seating, then the point is moot. No one is going to settle for a cam capture re-encoded to VCD when they can go to the matinee on Tuesday for free popcorn, or on Thursday for a free drink (with purchase of popcorn).

[DereX888]

Just a couple of argument tips for ROF:

1. Do not compare solid matter to electrons (ie. apples to oranges). You were doing alright with the "lost sale" thing, but don't compare it to armed robbery or theft. Downloading is not the same as breaking into someone's house and stealing their plasma television.

2. Never, ever, ever use the P2P movie argument. Until you can find a working torrent that lets you download a 50' x 30' screen w/ surround sound on 70mm and stadium seating, then the point is moot. No one is going to settle for a cam capture re-encoded to VCD when they can go to the matinee on Tuesday for free popcorn, or on Thursday for a free drink (with purchase of popcorn).

ROF is either employee(s?) of MPAA and such, or an idiot, whose mother didn't love enough or father ignored when he grew up or something like that, thats why he is and will troll here in desperate search of attention until some Moderator free us from him.
Please do not reply to his posts.
To ignore is best troll prevention.

thank you.

[Guy_Fawkes]

Like it or not what Adam and ROf states is the current law of the US. I don't like anymore than the rest of you. But until the congress changes it that's what we're stuck with. I thought this battle was over back in the 70's when MPAA said the same thing about VCRs.

The only thing that has really changed is the amount of money being spent in DC, and the will or lack there of our representatives to watch out for the consumer.

The bottom line is back up your DVD at your own peril. Then use your vote and elect people who represent your views.

Until then the lawyers, studios, media makers and software developers who sell these products will continue to make money.

I personally don't the fact that the resources of the Government are being used on protecting the special intrests of Hollywood and Big Money. There are certainly many more serious issues the Department of Justice should be looking at.

As far a private companies monitoring the bootlegging of DVDs all I can say is that I've been there and done that. All the privates companies in the world still rely on our justice system and law enforcement agencies to protect a special intrest group.

[Supreme2k]

Like it or not what Adam and ROf states is

Not quite correct to lump them together. While adam is regurgitating the law, ROF is doing a lot of finger wagging (his morals, rather than fact).

[DereX888]

Like it or not what Adam and ROf states is the current law of the US. I don't like anymore than the rest of you. But until the congress changes it that's what we're stuck with. I thought this battle was over back in the 70's when MPAA said the same thing about VCRs.

This law (in regard to personal backups of CD/DVDs) is dead as a doorknob, since no law enforcements nor interested parties dare to enforce it. They know they'd loose on every front (except for the court of law perhaps) if they dare to prosecute any Joe Schmoe for copying his legally bought discs for his home use.
Like it or not, but making forum noise about "piracy" by persons like me (who makes backups of their legally owned DVDs) is just plain silliness, and trolling at least.
There are still ancient laws like the one that the husband can't beat his wife after sunset (lol!) which I read was not long ago discovered in one of the States as still being theoretically valid lol
Its the same kind of dead law, only more recent.

The battle was never over.
Macrovision came up with its signal fu*cking schemes on VHS in the end 80's.
In 1993 or 1994 it was quietly enforced by law that all manufacturers had to include Macrovision detection chips in all VCRs sold in USA.
These are important anti- Fair Use actions taken by studios long time ago, have you forgot?
The more I read and more articles I find, the less I believe in anything these ******** say.

More importantly, where are government officials looking after interest of its citizens? CDs price jackup, "regions" on DVDs, discs twisted beyond the standards still bearing the standard's logo, or just outright loaded with spyware and viruses on legally (! ! !) released CDs - just to name few that come to mind - where is any senator or other supposedly democratically elected ****** to look after interest of its electors?

[Guy_Fawkes]

Sorry if I offended either of them but the bottom line remains the same.

I do remember macrovisions first offering, I had a Sony Beta-Max. Ways were found around it almost immediately after it came out. Some things never change it seems.

I do have a question for Adam. I hope he's still around. I followed ROF advise and did some research. That leads to the question as to when si a DVD movie no longer a true movie.

What I am referring to is the Superbit Titles that came out a while back. I seem to remember that they had a higher resolution that standard DVDs. To view them in this resolution though a PC was needed. Interactual player had to be installed on the PC and the movie viewed within that program.

Interactual Player is software designed for a PC. My question is can I make a backup of the software that is on the DVD. Could the interactive programs contained on DVD be considered as "software"?

[mbellot]

There are still ancient laws like the one that the husband can't beat his wife after sunset

So whats the problem?

Beat the wife while the sun shines, then pirate movies by moonlight. :P

[DereX888]

There are still ancient laws like the one that the husband can't beat his wife after sunset

So whats the problem?

Beat the wife while the sun shines, then pirate movies by moonlight. :P

I dont have wife and hopefully I never get so stupid to want to be married.
Thus it doesnt apply to me.
I dont "prate" movies, I buy them. What I do with them at home for my personal enjoyment is none of yours (nor anybody elses) business.
So no, it doesn't apply to me either.

But if you beat your wife then just let us know, I'd like to know how this dead law allowing you beat her during broadlight worked for you :P

[mbellot]

There are still ancient laws like the one that the husband can't beat his wife after sunset

So whats the problem?

Beat the wife while the sun shines, then pirate movies by moonlight. :P

I dont have wife and hopefully I never get so stupid to want to be married.
Thus it doesnt apply to me.

Ahhh youth. I was once so smart. Alas no more.

What I do with them at home for my personal enjoyment is none of yours (nor anybody elses) business.
So no, it doesn't apply to me either.

I agree, unfortunately others do not.

But if you beat your wife then just let us know, I'd like to know how this dead law allowing you beat her during broadlight worked for you :P

Interesting question for Adam...

The law does not specifically allow beating your wife during daylight hours, it only forbids beating her after sundown.

Does it therefore implicity allow you to beat your wife during the day?

(j/k. I am sure there are other laws in the same state that criminalize beating your wife regardless of the time of day.) :P

[DereX888]

Interesting question for Adam...

The law does not specifically allow beating your wife during daylight hours, it only forbids beating her after sundown.

Does it therefore implicity allow you to beat your wife during the day?

I can't wait either
Ancient Greeks? Romans? had saying: "what is not forbidden (by Law) - is allowed".
I think every western law is based upon it, or has roots in it

Adam, since some old KY (or was it TN) law forbid wife beating after sundown, and newer laws forbid wive beating in general at any time, is it logic to assume that the older law supercedes the newer one? Ergo daylight wive beating, as a specifically NOT forbidden by older law act of beating, it is allowed in the eye of law? Or do the 'newer' laws forbiding beating anyone even during the daylights takes over this 'grey area'? Hence - when is the best time to beat your wive, exactly at the moment when sunset turn to dusk/darkness, or when the night turns to dawn?


EDIT:
But seriously, Im getting pissed now. This all looks like some "1984" world already
How on earth anyone could allow to construct such Laws?!
I can understand if The Law forbids doing any any dangerous (to other members of society) activities at MY OWN HOME, but making a copy of a DVD which someone bought is not dangerous to anyone, nor it does not deprive the copyright owners from their rightful profit since it was PAID FOR already. This kind of law just cannot stand in the court of law!
No way, this *just* cannot hold, no siree.
No one have right to tell me what to do, at my own home, if whatever I'm doing does not interfere with anyone's well being, nor it does not deprive someone from his (rightful) profit. Yet according to what Adam posted earlier, we actually are allowed to lend a copyrighted material to anyone we want at any time (which obviously will deprive copyright owners from their profit), but we cannot copy already paid for materials for our own use!! Geeeez I don't know where to begin with...

Adam, what have to be done, what steps a citizen can do, to "undo" stupid law like that? This is serious question. Whom do I have to contact or what do I have to do, to push some bill undoing such legal idiocies?

[adam]

There are a number of antiquated laws permitting people to beat their wives under certain circumstances. They were passed in a time when it was probably socially acceptable, aka a damn long time ago and they were passed at the county level so the act is still criminalized by the state and in most cases by the Federal government as well. I believe the specific law you are referring to is one that exists in Stafford County, Virginia which states that a man may legally beat his wife on the courthouse steps so long as it is not later than 8:00. I can tell you exactly how a law like this gets past. Rewind maybe 100 years, a prominant man is seen beating his wife on the courthouse steps, and when the wife wants to press charges the town passes this ordinance just to protect him.

This is a local ordinance, battery is still criminalized under Virginia State law. The state can still press charges, the county just couldn't under that law...but this is clearly a dead law. If it were ever attempted to be enforced than it would be declared unconstitutional. This really is a poor analogy to copyright law though since that is not only federal law applicable in every state, but it is also expressly authorized by the constitution itself. The copyright provisions mentioned in this thread are also enforced every day and are clearly not "dead laws." If copying a DVD were ever deemed to be legal it would not be the result of declaring any provision of Copyright Law unconstitutional, that is silly. It would be the result of finding an exception within the existing statute, such as under Fair Use. To be diplomatic I'll just say that the result is anyone's guess.

Getting back to beating your wife at night, I looked up Stafford County's local ordinances and I can't find the law anywhere. Feel free to give it a shot: http://library.municode.com/mcc/home.htm?infobase=11500&doc_method=cleardoc#

The only place I see this law mentioned are on sites like dumblaws.com. There are indeed alot of dead laws similar to this one, but I'm thinking this one was either repealed some time in the past or is just a hoax.

Talk about going off topic...

[DereX888]

Obviously "wife beating" was just a joke, but thank you for explaining it.
Please answer my real questions in previous post. I just modified it to be more clear.

This really is a poor analogy to copyright law though since that is not only federal law applicable in every state, but it is also expressly authorized by the constitution itself. The copyright provisions mentioned in this thread are also enforced every day and are clearly not "dead laws."

You've said yourself before that NO ONE have ever been charged nor prosecuted for making a backup copy for his own use. How can you say then that this is not a dead law? Unless there is different way to enforce the law than to prosecute the offenders, you contradict yourself.

Nevertheless, please answer on the subject "how to get rid of socially unacceptable law", thanx.

[adam]

Guy_Fawkes: Superbit DVDs are perfectly compliant with the DVD specifications and will play on any DVD player. They simply use higher than typical bitrates by omitting extras. Even if a movie was made in such a way that it could only be played back on a computer, it does not fall within the computer program exception unless it is actual code. I believe that for this to be true it would have to be classifed as either object or executable code, source code probably doesn't even count (All the cases on this talk about backing up object and executable code so that's just my guess.)

Yes you can backup the Interplay software program, as if anyone would need or want to do that, but just because it is contained on the same disc as other non-exempted data doesn't mean you can copy everything.

[DereX888]

hmm, am I being ignored by Adam, or you simply don't want to answer such question?

[adam]

Edit: dude give me time, my answers take longer to write than your questions.

I see your edited post now, and I think the answer is very simple. You do not legislate by saying 1) this is illegal, 2) this is illegal, 3) this is illegal, etc... You'd never finish the statute.

Instead you start with a premise, in this case you state that ALL copying of copyrighted works constitutes an infringement UNLESS exempted. Then you create the exemptions. The obvious ones were created from day 1, and the rest were added on an as needed basis. That's how the Teach Act was passed. A bunch of teachers wrote their congressmen saying they knew they had rights under Fair Use but didn't know the extent of them. There was enough confusion that a bill was put together to give guidance. The same thing happened with the Audio Home Recording Act. There were enough suits against hardware recorders and a great enough belief in the general public that copying their music was permissible. As such the affected industries struck a deal to try to satisfy everyone. Hardware manufacturers were granted immunity from suit for contributory infringement. Citizens were granted an exception that allowed them to copy musical recordings for personal use. And in exchange for this manufacturers of certain hardware and media have to pay a royalty which is distributed to the recording industry.

Really, what it boils down to is that right now it doesn't seem that copying DVDs is really prevelant enough that the issue is ripe. As I've said before, I honestly do not believe Fair Use could possibly exempt the activity, just as Fair Use did not exempt the copying of musical recordings. That's why a new law was drafted for CDs and if DVD copying is going to be made legal than I suspect that a similar law will have to be drafted.

Until an exemption is created, the general premise controls, ie: copying copyrighted works is an infringement. The fact that such an exemption hasn't been created yet doesn't mean that the underlying premise is flawed or unconstitutional, or corrupt. It just means that there is not yet enough support or need for such an exemption.

If you want to do something really the best way is to write congressmen and stress the need for an exemption for audio/visual works.

And now I have to go to bed so please don't think I'm avoiding your posts if you ask another question and I don't answer.

[DereX888]

@adam
thank you. have a good night.
I have to sleep as well, so more question will follow next time

EDIT:
Please remember - no wife beating after sunset

[RottenFoxBreath]

enough about wife beating...i wanna know,how does the US law stand on spanking monkeys?
can you just spank your monkey after sunset,or can you just spank it at any time of the day?
pmsl.

[rkr1958]

enough about wife beating...i wanna know,how does the US law stand on spanking monkeys?
can you just spank your monkey after sunset,or can you just spank it at any time of the day?
pmsl.

I think in a lot of places local laws forbid you from owning exotic animals such as monkies ... so if you can't own ... you can't spank them.

[guns1inger]

After reading 7 pages of enlightened and not-so-enlightened argument on this topic, I would suggest that monkey spanking is a) prevelent here, and b) if it is illegal, many of the people here need to watch their backs

I would also like to thank Adam for his patience and continued objectivity when responding.

Australian copyright law does have exemptions along the lines of the Teach Act, however it does not have any Fair Use provisions, does not allow for time-shifting (a'la VHS recording) and does not allow for format shifting. Ripping a CD to your PC through iTunes and putting it on your iPod is, technically, illegal. That it is not currently practical to hunt down everyone who does this, that does not change the law. Some matters have not been prosecuted because of rulings in the US - time-shifting via vhs recording is one such example, however the law has not been amended to reflect this.

The recent free-trade agreement with the US may well change things here, with a lot of talk regarding changing copyright law to come into line with the US legislation. It is interesting then to see just what we might be getting.

[DereX888]

can't we just get rid of such trolls?
Admins, come on, make a statement!

i already made a statement -- he has a right to his beliefs .. if you accept them or not is your choice ... it is like turning the channel..

I disagree.
Many of us here been called a "pirates" by this clown.
This is unacceptable.
Most of his posts are almost the same, he is basically spewing here same texts in most threads like a broken, skipping CD.
This is unacceptable as well.

now if someone can tell me how to make a backup of my wife - so when she gets old and damaged , i can use the backup copy ......

No problem here
You have at least 2 options:
1 - If she has younger sister...
2 - Or wait until they perfect human cloning
Major obstacle actually is how to discard the old original in legal way?

[GullyFoyle]

It's Alive!


The thread that wouldn't die!

[DereX888]

It's Alive!


The thread that wouldn't die!

hehe, how would it! Not with so many interesting sub-subjects

BTW - isn't this picture COPYRIGHTED? do you have written permission from (c) owners?

[dvdguy4]

It's Alive!


The thread that wouldn't die!

hehe, how would it! Not with so many interesting sub-subjects

BTW - isn't this picture COPYRIGHTED? do you have written permission from (c) owners?

Cant help but to laugh at that

[ROF]

can't we just get rid of such trolls?
Admins, come on, make a statement!

i already made a statement -- he has a right to his beliefs .. if you accept them or not is your choice ... it is like turning the channel..

I disagree.
Many of us here been called a "pirates" by this clown.
This is unacceptable.
Most of his posts are almost the same, he is basically spewing here same texts in most threads like a broken, skipping CD.
This is unacceptable as well.

For one I've never really specifically called anyone a pirate unless by definition of their postings that's what they are. I believe the only one I did outright call one actually referred to themselves as a pirate. Are you paranoid?

For two, I only visit these threads after posting in a multitude of others. In the last five days you've posted in this thread the same thing over and over again and have only posted one post in one other topic. Whose the broken CD?

Sorry, Just thought I'd correct your false statements.