Forbes Magazine says Madagascar WAS a true RIPGuard disc

[Alan69]

I have nether rented no seen a movie in the theatres in well over a year. Same goes for any on TV. It's all crap.... Out of the hundreds of movies that come out of Hollywood a year there is maybe 1 or 2 flicks I may consider watching. That's the best damn copy protection in the owrld as far as I'm concerned, I wouldn't waste the cost of the blank disc.

It's good to hear that you are not a deciding factor in the general publics losses or gains. Although I doubt the billions of dollars spent this year alone on ticket sales, pay per view, pay channels and movie merchandise agrees with your assessment of the industry.

Uh, hello McFly!

You're clearly just arguing to prove yourself right without reason. Of course someone not going due to low current quality represents a loss. In fact, a far more tangible loss than the supposed loss from someone downloading a film, who may well have never gone in the first place anyway.

And look at the loss and money gone to more worthwhile causes, such as Katrina, not to mention the many mediocre films this year. No doubt plenty of kids and parents gave up a crap movie or two to donate. Only idiotic movie execs would say any downturn this year was due to largely to piracy. Of course, they have good accountants, they know the real reasons, and are just using numbers to lie and get what they want. Show me an honest Abe movie exec and I know Santa will be on one side of him, with the Tooth Fairy on the other.

Plain and simple fact is most of the people I know have vastly superior video and sound systems at home vs 2 years ago, and wait for the DVD's to come out and rent or buy then. The whole go to a movie idea makes little sense for many people, most simply aren't compelling enough to go vs wait for the DVD.

Alan

[VegasBud]

Will it stop all copying? Surely not, but it's a nice attempt.

It seems more like a pitiful attempt to me.

Macrovision spent all this year trumpeting their new and unbreakable copy protection scheme, while their stock plummeted 50%. Then Ripguard turns out to be virtually indistinguishable from the Sony ArcCos structure based scheme, followed by Ripguard being very publicly defeated three days after its' first deployment by a Piper Jaffray (wall street) analyst using readily available software.

It might even be sad...if we weren't talking about the same soulless creatures of the night that used their corporate might to beat the legal stuffing out of poor LightningUK. I wish them a speedy journey on their trip down the toilet.

[adam]

it didn't stop you from lecturing again, did it? And I agree - copying material you legitimately own is universally accepted as being within our fair use rights - in spite of the money the entertainment industry throws around to change that.

What thread have you been reading?

[GullyFoyle]

it didn't stop you from lecturing again, did it? And I agree - copying material you legitimately own is universally accepted as being within our fair use rights - in spite of the money the entertainment industry throws around to change that.

What thread have you been reading?

The one you present the procorporate case for.
I'm sure some EFF lawyer could present a more liberal interpretation if we had one here.
Unfortunately we get only one side.

[ROF]

it didn't stop you from lecturing again, did it? And I agree - copying material you legitimately own is universally accepted as being within our fair use rights - in spite of the money the entertainment industry throws around to change that.

What thread have you been reading?

The one you present the procorporate case for.
I'm sure some EFF lawyer could present a more liberal interpretation if we had one here.
Unfortunately we get only one side.

You only get one side because that is how laws are written. The law currently says you are not entitled to make backups of DVD movies even for your own use. Fair use involves something entirely different then backing up or archiving anyways, so it's not a factor in this case.

[dvdguy4]

Just got to love what it states on the macrovision web site.
Each year, studios lose up to one billion dollars through the digital hole. We created RipGuard DVD to help you get most of it back.
Nearly one billion dollars in DVD retail revenues escape each year into the digital hole, the result of DVD ripping of copyrighted content. DeCSS Ripping breaks the CSS encryption found on DVDs and places these unprotected files onto a PC, where they can be burned onto inexpensive recordable DVDs or shared over P2P networks. Over 6 million households use DeCSS rippers around the globe, and this phenomenon is approaching mass-market critical mass.

Macrovision’s goal in designing RipGuard DVD was to give studios back the majority of this lost revenue, quarter-over-quarter. RipGuard DVD does this by blocking ripping among the majority of real-world DeCSS ripper market share. Implemented today, RipGuard DVD gives studios back 97% of this lost revenue. Macrovision’s planned evolution and Unique Digital Framework design ensures that RipGuard DVD will continue to address this majority ripper market share over time.
RipGuard DVD works on every current DVD drive and player in the market and is THX™ Verified, ensuring the audio and video quality of the original digital content. There is simply no consumer penalty to protecting your DVD content with RipGuard DVD, and no reason not to act today to protect your DVD business

[smearbrick1]

How can the claim almost a billion dollars a year in lost revenue on something that was never purchased? It's not like they had shipments of dvds totaling almost a billion dollars be destroyed in some freak accident or a hurricane or something.

I can't wait until I start my own business. When it comes time for tax season, I'm going to claim huge losses all in the name of GHOSTS!

At a time when DVD sales are at a peak, they (the movie industry) still claim they are losing millions. Is this millions that pirates are making by counterfeiting their product? I just don't see how they get these numbers.

[ROF]

How can the claim almost a billion dollars a year in lost revenue on something that was never purchased? It's not like they had shipments of dvds totaling almost a billion dollars be destroyed in some freak accident or a hurricane or something.

I can't wait until I start my own business. When it comes time for tax season, I'm going to claim huge losses all in the name of GHOSTS!

At a time when DVD sales are at a peak, they (the movie industry) still claim they are losing millions. Is this millions that pirates are making by counterfeiting their product? I just don't see how they get these numbers.

Each back up made of a DVD is a lost sale. How many here have admitted to backing up hundreds if not thousands of titles? Check the P2P networks. Check the seeds for torrents. Each one of those is a lost sale. You can't say you wouldn't buy it or pay to see it, then steal it and watch it, and claim you've done no damage because you had no intent to purchase anyways. If this were true, we could just walk into a show room, take a car for a test drive and never return. When the cops show up at your door try explaining to them you never intended to buy it.

That's the losses reported. Even if you just count a few people here you can add up thousands of dollars in lost revenue by theft of sales.

[Rich86]

"Each back up made of a DVD is a lost sale. "

You, Macrovision and the movie studios can yell this from the top of every mountain on the planet - and it is still nonsense! Just because someone is able to and burns a copy of something, doesn't mean they would have run off to a retail outlet and paid full retail price for it if they did not have that ability for some reason. But feel free to continue to spout the riaa, mpaa, macrovision and movie studio mantras . . .

[canadateck]

"Each back up made of a DVD is a lost sale. "


Up here in Canada it's More Money for them,We have to Pay a Levy for every Blank DVD/Cd we buy.

So how do they Lose Money from us?

Oh wait,They just dont lose AS Much.

[RottenFoxBreath]

How can the claim almost a billion dollars a year in lost revenue on something that was never purchased? It's not like they had shipments of dvds totaling almost a billion dollars be destroyed in some freak accident or a hurricane or something.

I can't wait until I start my own business. When it comes time for tax season, I'm going to claim huge losses all in the name of GHOSTS!

At a time when DVD sales are at a peak, they (the movie industry) still claim they are losing millions. Is this millions that pirates are making by counterfeiting their product? I just don't see how they get these numbers.

Each back up made of a DVD is a lost sale. How many here have admitted to backing up hundreds if not thousands of titles? Check the P2P networks. Check the seeds for torrents. Each one of those is a lost sale. You can't say you wouldn't buy it or pay to see it, then steal it and watch it, and claim you've done no damage because you had no intent to purchase anyways. If this were true, we could just walk into a show room, take a car for a test drive and never return. When the cops show up at your door try explaining to them you never intended to buy it.

That's the losses reported. Even if you just count a few people here you can add up thousands of dollars in lost revenue by theft of sales.

good to see you move away from the murder comparison and move onto something more stupid like the car theft analogy
in my movie watching history,theres probably about a handful of movies that warrant a second purchase,and certainly not most of todays piss.
like some of the latest generic bilgewater hollywood movies(war of the worlds,and fancrapstick 4 are prime examples-utter and unequivably shit.)
ive seen them on various "illegal" formats,and boy,am i glad i did.i would never spend a penny on shit like that.
no lost sale from me...

[ROF]

in my movie watching history,theres probably about a handful of movies that warrant a second purchase
no lost sale from me...

Nope no lost sale because the movies are so bad there's no need to even waste money or time on backing it up in your case. This whole subject is a null factor in relation to your feelings about movies and loss of revenue experienced by those who produce the masterpieces today.

[ROF]

"Each back up made of a DVD is a lost sale. "


Up here in Canada it's More Money for them,We have to Pay a Levy for every Blank DVD/Cd we buy.

So how do they Lose Money from us?

Oh wait,They just dont lose AS Much.

Is it in the water you guys have up there? I've tried drinking it and still I'll never understand how your laws work in relation to media, levies, up/downloading, etc. It's all good though.

[canadateck]

It's Great. The Law is the Law,Is the Law.

The Water makes me Pee on things<<<<<<<<

[ROF]

It's Great. The Law is the Law,Is the Law.

The Water makes me Pee on things<<<<<<<<

And your beer makes me want to become a major importer.

[somedude3210]

I will say this yet again. Laws are made by Congress not by judges. You should be spending more time reading title 17 rather than looking for cases, and no there are no such cases involving infringement for personal copying of DVDs.

Hmmm..being from the common law country of Canada (as is the US), I have always considered statutes without complementary caselaw to be less than sturdy. If a statute hasn't been held up by significant caselaw, the interpretation of a statute is murky at best.

You mentioned that cases are a matter of enforcement rather than the substance of law. Caselaw will determine the enforceability of the statute. Until the enforceability is determined, the statute is worth the paper it's printed on. If there is no significant caselaw, the actual law hasn't really been flushed out via statutory interpretation.

Of course without precedent the statute is the law, but it doesn't carry as much weight.

Anyways I've enjoyed this whole thread. While I've been a long time lurker on this site, I just felt compelled to drop a note here.

@ ROF
Honestly, going back to the first times I saw your postings in other threads I thought you were saying things for a goof. That said, I guess you are serious in your stances on various matters. I'm not saying I agree or disagree with you but I applaud your tenacity. I always enjoy being in a good row, if only to play devil's advocate, and seeing you as the large underdog in this forum I can't help but pull for you.

[mbellot]

Nearly one billion dollars in DVD retail revenues escape each year into the digital hole, the result of DVD ripping of copyrighted content.

And then further down the page...

Implemented today, RipGuard DVD gives studios back 97% of this lost revenue.

Perhaps the movie studios should sue Macrovision for false advertising. If RipGuard reduces the lost revenue by 97% then how could they possibly be realizing losses in the billions?

Surely nobody could claim the original (pre-RipGuard) losses were in excess of a hundred billion dollars per year, could they?

Then again, we are talking about the MPAA. Facts are meaningless.

[gll99]

ROF wrote

Is it in the water you guys have up there? I've tried drinking it

canadateck wrote

The Water makes me Pee on things<<<<<<<<

Especially the water just before it goes south
-----------------------------------------------------------------
While the preceeding statement is fact, the following comments are a personal opinion not a legal one:

We have excellent copyright laws up here as it is right now. This is what a democratic nation is supposed to be like.

The artists/industries are protected against outright illegal distribution of their works/products. The right of individuals to to do what they want with their purchases are protected as long as they don't engage in redistribution or rebroadcast without license. In many protected circumstances, individuals can legally possess copies of distributed works as long as they do not distribute, rebroadcast etc.. these works. To compensate the music artists for the right of individuals to backup music there is a levy on cd's.
One important point of note: The right to backup music is not dependant on there being a levy on the blank cd so many have argued that it is an unnecessary tax that should not be paid. I believe it was only a compromise to appease the music industry a few years ago but of course they want much more.

I am not aware that there is any such levy on blank DVD but it is possible.
I don't know if the right to back up a DVD as ever been tested , neverttheless, one could argue, that due to the precedent set with cd's there is sufficent reason to conclude that under current Canadian law backing up a DVD is just as legal as backing up a cd.


With the pressure from the big US parent companies on our lawmakers in Canada they are trying to turn ordinary Canadian citizens into criminals just like they have done in many other countries. After many years of worldwide lobbying they now casually refer to this as Internationally accepted law. This forces the state (our publicly funded police, prosecutors, lawyers, judges, courts, jails) and our tax money to perform the bulk of the work for them in matters that for all intent and purpose should never be written in criminal law but rather should have always remained in civil court.
If my neighbour put his fence on my property the police will tell me it's a civil matter and for me to take him to court and that is how it should be. Why many aspects of I.P. should ever come into the criminal domain is hard to fathom. There are many federal laws governing the broadcasting of tv, radio, ect... and they are there to protect Canadian interests but there is no reason that our lawmakers should allow themselves, any state run institution or our judicial system to become a pawn of any for profit industry.

[ROF]

Nearly one billion dollars in DVD retail revenues escape each year into the digital hole, the result of DVD ripping of copyrighted content.

And then further down the page...

Implemented today, RipGuard DVD gives studios back 97% of this lost revenue.

Perhaps the movie studios should sue Macrovision for false advertising. If RipGuard reduces the lost revenue by 97% then how could they possibly be realizing losses in the billions?

Surely nobody could claim the original (pre-RipGuard) losses were in excess of a hundred billion dollars per year, could they?

Then again, we are talking about the MPAA. Facts are meaningless.

If I read the quote of the website from dvdguy4 it says losses of up to one billion dollars per year because of the digital hole. With 97% recouped or stopped that's only 3 million in losses after ripguard is in place.

I think you need to re-read the quote above. The one billion mark is before ripguard. Nobody ever claimed 100 billion dollar losses.

[Excellerator]

I also see that the movie Sky High has the little "Ripguard" speed bump.

[mbellot]

Each back up made of a DVD is a lost sale.

Not true. What about those people copying to media shift? You can't play a DVD in your PSP (or other portable media device), and they haven't released (pick a movie or TV show) in PSP format yet, so you encode it yourself.

While the media shift may (or may not depending on numerous factors) be illegal, you simply can't argue a loss of revenue.

How many here have admitted to backing up hundreds if not thousands of titles? Check the P2P networks. Check the seeds for torrents. Each one of those is a lost sale.

But each one also represents at least one sale. :P

You can't say you wouldn't buy it or pay to see it, then steal it and watch it, and claim you've done no damage because you had no intent to purchase anyways. If this were true, we could just walk into a show room, take a car for a test drive and never return. When the cops show up at your door try explaining to them you never intended to buy it.

Anothe poor analogy. A better one would be stealing computer software since its approximately the same (no intrinsic value, its not real property).

That's the losses reported. Even if you just count a few people here you can add up thousands of dollars in lost revenue by theft of sales.

The losses reported are made up. They are at best a guess at trying to quantify something that cannot truly be measured. Another reason to use software for your analogy, since the BSA loss estimates are just as made up as those provided by the RIAA and the MPAA.

[ROF]

Each back up made of a DVD is a lost sale.

Not true. What about those people copying to media shift? You can't play a DVD in your PSP (or other portable media device), and they haven't released (pick a movie or TV show) in PSP format yet, so you encode it yourself.

While the media shift may (or may not depending on numerous factors) be illegal, you simply can't argue a loss of revenue.

So because it's not available in your chosen media especially a newer form you should have the right to violate the law and do as you please? that would be interesting if applied to other illicit activities.

How many here have admitted to backing up hundreds if not thousands of titles? Check the P2P networks. Check the seeds for torrents. Each one of those is a lost sale.

But each one also represents at least one sale. :P

really? so each person seeding a torrent has purchased the title being shared? I don't think you comprehend the concept if you believe that to be true.

You can't say you wouldn't buy it or pay to see it, then steal it and watch it, and claim you've done no damage because you had no intent to purchase anyways. If this were true, we could just walk into a show room, take a car for a test drive and never return. When the cops show up at your door try explaining to them you never intended to buy it.

Anothe poor analogy. A better one would be stealing computer software since its approximately the same (no intrinsic value, its not real property).

So real property has value and software doesn't? You obviously have never been to a software studio house.

That's the losses reported. Even if you just count a few people here you can add up thousands of dollars in lost revenue by theft of sales.

The losses reported are made up. They are at best a guess at trying to quantify something that cannot truly be measured. Another reason to use software for your analogy, since the BSA loss estimates are just as made up as those provided by the RIAA and the MPAA.

They might be some guessimation involved but it's based on real world facts. Simply search for a harry potter and the goblet of fire torrents and see how many seeds there are. Multiply those seeds by the price at your movie complex. That's just one location(file) where theft is occuring on a single movie.

[fritzi93]

If there is no significant caselaw, the actual law hasn't really been flushed out via statutory interpretation.

Flushed out or fleshed out? Eh, works either way. Anyway, I agree. So it puzzles me to be told lawyers and courts don't make laws. In effect they do, and do it all the time. (Precedent carries weight, and influences the outcomes of subsequent cases.) Sometimes they even invent some law where no one has looked before...anyone recall "penumbras" and "emanations" from the U.S. Constitution? But that's another subject...

Sometimes, also, there are laws that, on their face, are conflicting, and it's the job of the court to balance the various interests involved, including that of society at large. That's why I read with interest Vitualis' take on copyright law in regard to its basic purpose. His position accords with my understanding of it.

Another thing puzzles me. Am I the only one who thinks the DMCA is an anomaly? It's the one area of Intellectual Property in which it's said, in effect, no Fair Use at all. And I'm not talking about archiving. Say you have a college class on some aspect of film-making. Under fair use you could excerpt clips for educational purposes, just as you would any other copyrighted work. But it's flatly illegal to break the encryption?

Not to be a wise guy, Adam, really. I'd be interested in your opinion, maybe if you could even take off your lawyer hat for a moment...

[EDIT] Wow, this is a hot one. When I started replying, Somedude was the last poster!

[adam]

Hmmm..being from the common law country of Canada (as is the US), I have always considered statutes without complementary caselaw to be less than sturdy. If a statute hasn't been held up by significant caselaw, the interpretation of a statute is murky at best.

But we are talking about US Copyright Law!!! There is no such thing as common law copyright, the 1976 Copyright Statute expressly preempts it. When construing copyright you can only look to the statute and courts can only interpret the language of that statute. The first damn line of Title 17 states expressly that the copyright holder has the exclusive right to copy their work. There are literally hundreds of thousands of cases where this provision has been upheld. There is nothing for a court to interpret, if the work is copyrighted whether it be a DVD or a song then any copying is expressly prohibited unless exempted so all a court can do is interpret those exemptions listed in sections 107 through 122. Other than that the only thing that a court can do is declare the statute unconstitutional but that is basically impossible since the constitution expressly grants Congress the authority to regulate the arts and we are talking about the most basic underlying principle of copyright law, that you can't copy someone's work.

[adam]

Another thing puzzles me. Am I the only one who thinks the DMCA is an anomaly? It's the one area of Intellectual Property in which it's said, in effect, no Fair Use at all. And I'm not talking about archiving. Say you have a college class on some aspect of film-making. Under fair use you could excerpt clips for educational purposes, just as you would any other copyrighted work. But it's flatly illegal to break the encryption?

No, that is incorrect and I already explained this at least 2 other times in this thread. The DMCA outlaws the breaking of encryption UNLESS you are engaging in a Fair Use.

So once again, if you are excerpting clips for, say a parody, then you are engaging in a Fair Use. As such, you are exempted from the DMCA under section 1201(C).

(c) Other rights, etc., not affected.
(1) Nothing in this section shall affect rights, remedies, limitations, or defenses to copyright infringement, including fair use, under this title.

You mentioned the Fair Use of educational purposes and this is an exception. Even though it is a Fair Use you cannot break encyrption for this purpose. This rule is not under the DMCA it is under 104 (Fair Use) itself. The Teach Act created this exception.

[adam]

I've tried to give nothing but an objective interpretation of US Copyright Law. If you find my interpretations incorrect or biased in any way than I invite you to just form your own.

http://www.copyright.gov/title17/

I don't see much point in arguing over a set of laws if you've never read them.

So, carry on I guess. If anyone has any questions regarding Copyrights or Trademarks than I'd be happy to try to answer them as best as I can via PM, but my posting in these types of threads only seems to fuel a fire which I just cannot understand.

[DereX888]

I think this sums up our long thread:


1.
Even if the law says its a breach/infringment of cpyrights when we copy CD or DVD, it is nation-wide acceptable by the Law to copy CD/DVD for your personal use. No studio nor any law enforcement dare to sue anyone for copying a DVD for their home personal use(s).
At least for now, future may prove otherwise, years of brainwashing the public may (or may not) change the public's perception of such trivial things like "making backups", weaker-mind specimens are already showing up today (i.e. ROF, unless he really is MPAA's employee)...

2.
Studios have right to protect their investments (or losses, whatever you call iy ) any way they want. Rootkits, RipGuards are annoyances, true, but as last as the product is playable on the devices designed for - its all legal for them to do as well.
But someone should have been sued them for misuse of common standards. I.e. if my CD-ROM made by BrandX bears international logo of CDDA (Audio CD), and I can't play Sony's newest crap-loaded AudioCD with the same logo on the disc, either BrandX or some public officials should sue/force Sony to remove CDDA logo from their "AudioCD". Warning that "this disc may not play on a computer drives" is not enough, iwe have international standards for a reason, and although theyre not the law, they must be respected.
Same thing with DVDs; if your DVD-logo labelled disc containing some mean copy-protection crap does not play on your computer DVD-ROM bearing same DVD logo, someone should step in and enforce removal of the standardized logo from the product. Its that simple and Im surprised there are no class-suit actios all over the country/world.

Thats all what it boils down to it, in regard of copyrights, me thinks.

And clearly RIAA, MPAA (and their running dogs like ROF) and public law enforcement officials & others should really start doing something about REAL piracy.
Quarter million illegal DVDs of top-notch quality basically same as originals. seized on a small obsure mall somewhere in Canada in one day only last week, is just a tip of the mountain. And thats in our neighbourhood basically. Clearly ROF and other MPAA's useful idiots should start seeking pirates somewhere else than boards like this.
My taxes pay you for doing your job, not for sitting at the office and enjoying word battles on a forums!
Or better yet - govt. should stop using my tax money for protecting corporations

[fritzi93]

Pardon me, Adam. It's difficult sometimes to follow. I'm evidently not the only one, so don't get too exasperated. .

But I'm thinking real-world, when all decrypting apps are either unavailable or driven underground, where is fair use then for DVDs? And it seems we're headed that way.

[bugster]

I have a couple of things I would like to add to this interesting thread

Each back up made of a DVD is a lost sale.

Prove it.
How many people who back up their DVD's would have ever purchased a second or further copy if they were not able to back up the original. My guess would be a very small percentage.
How many people who purchase a mass produced pirate DVD from a backstreet trader or other supplier for just a few dollars (or whatever currency you have) would have purchased the full priced studio version if the pirate version was not on offer. My guess, probably somewaht higher than the back up group but still a fairly small percentage. Therfore the movie industry cannot claim that every 'pirate' copy (and I use the term loosley) is a lost sale.


My second point is more a question about RipGuard and Sony Arcoss copy protection.
I believe it has been ruled (at least in some markets) that audio CD's with any form of copy protection break the standards for CD-Audio (red book?). In those cases the manufacturers must indicate on the packaging that copy protection is present and may not use the standard CD-Audio logo's. If that is the case, and DVD-Video requires the manufacturers adhere to a similiar standard, does Ripguard break that standard and if so are the manufacturers effectivley selling faulty products under the guise of DVD-Video? Anyone know about this?

Just a thought

[DereX888]

My second point is more a question about RipGuard and Sony Arcoss copy protection.
I believe it has been ruled (at least in some markets) that audio CD's with any form of copy protection break the standards for CD-Audio (red book?). In those cases the manufacturers must indicate on the packaging that copy protection is present and may not use the standard CD-Audio logo's. If that is the case, and DVD-Video requires the manufacturers adhere to a similiar standard, does Ripguard break that standard and if so are the manufacturers effectivley selling faulty products under the guise of DVD-Video? Anyone know about this?

Just a thought

In those cases they are or should be NOT allowed to include CDDA (Compact Disc Digital Audio CD) logo on their product.
Not only computer drives with CD logo on them, but also many of the car CD players have problems playing such "audio cd" discs. Basically most of the cd/mp3 players have problem playing such discs.

I dont think they sell "faulty" product this way. More like non-standard product.