Problem with subtitle timing...

[TempestGarden]

Hello.

I am adding subtitles to a DVD and I am having some issues with timing that I hope someone might be able to help me with. Basically I am doing some tweaking/final timing of the subtitles in the program DVDSubber until the subs look perfectly timed to me. Now, I then have to export the subs to a program, in this case SubStationAlpha, so that I can save the file in a useable format, such as .ssa.

Okay, now when I then try to use these subs in the program DVDLabPro, I am noticing that my subs are somehow mysteriously mis-timed. In other words, when importing them into DVDLabPro, something is happening and causing them to be mis-timed. Occasionally I have subs that overlap, but I always hit "ok" and allow DVDLabPro to fix them for me. I don't think this is the problem though, because the resulting DVD has many, many instances where the timing is now off where it was "perfect" before.

Does anyone have ANY idea what might be going on here?? I am getting very frustrated and I can't figure out why this is happening.

[redostrike]

Has your subs some specials to it?

If not you could try to save it just as an .srt (i think SubStationAlpha supports this). For me it works when the sub is in srt.

Hope this helps

[TempestGarden]

I am trying to figure out how to save the file in .srt format. What does this stand for and any ideas on how to save a .ssa file in the .srt format?

[TempestGarden]

Okay, despite the previous post I made, I did figure out how to save the file as an .srt file. I tried using this instead in DVDLabPro and guess what?? The timings are STILL not correct when I load them in the program. God, I hate this program..... When I compare the times of the subs in either my .ssa or .srt file, they are not the same as the times showing when I load them into DVDLabPro. I am SO ready to scream! I wish someone could help me figure this out, as this is getting to be beyond frustrating at this point.

[redostrike]

Ok good you found the ssa to srt tool i could have given you the awnser if i saw the message earlier.

Hmm this is very weird DVDLabPro never cheats time for me. I guess you could try some things.

1.) Try to find another sub of the movie/serie you have.

2.) Try to open the srt into another program (try subtitle workshop) and look for the part where DVDLab Pro has problems. If the same happens in the other program then there is definently something wrong whit the subtitle file.

3.) Try to unistall DVDLab Pro an reïnstall it. Maybe there is somthing wrong whit it. (Be sure everything from dvdlabpro is of your computer) You could try this whit substationalpha to.

What you also can try to do is extract (seperate the sub) open the srt in notepad and cut the part where there is something wrong. Then put this in another notepad for a second and save it as [subtitlename]ERROR.txt or something like that. Then try to add only the good part 2 dvdlab an see if the time is correct for the first part of the movie. Then try to add more pieces to the good sub (from the error.txt file).

I know this is a bit hars to do because the compiling of dvdlab takes some time but i'm use to compile my stuff on a second pc i have specialy for dvd stuff.

Hope this helps you a bit.

[TempestGarden]

Thanks for trying to help me.

I have tried pretty much everything that you have suggested, except unistalling DVDLabPro and re-installing it. Perhaps I will try that now. I have saved my subs in all kinds of formats with a few different subtitling programs.... .ssa, .ass, .srt you name it. What is basically happening is this... I have the subs timed exactly how I want them, no matter what format I have them saved in, then I import them into DVDLabPro to generate the subtitle stream and compile the whole thing. Well, when I import the subs, something happens to EVERY single line that I have timed, causing each subtitle line to be mis-timed. I have even compared the times as they appear when loaded in DVDLabPro to the times as I have them saved in the original file(.ssa or .srt) and each one is definitely off in time a little bit. I have no idea why this is, but I really wish that I could figure this out.

[TempestGarden]

*UPDATE*

Okay, I tried un-installing and re-installing DVDLabPro and basically nothing changed. I am STILL getting the same problem that I had before. The times don't hold when I import them into the program. This is really making me angry.... especially since I have put SO much time into this as it is.

[redostrike]

This is really vey weird.

Did you ever made another movie whit subs in DVDLabpro?

Try to add just any srt/ssa file in the project (not the one that "miss times" all the time ) see if the same thing happens.

Another thing that comes to my mind for you to try is just rebuild the project the same as it is now.

But i'm out of options now I thinks there is something very wrong whit your DVDLab pro.

Ooh Yeah you could look at the subtitle settings (Real Time 25 fps or From DF Source) Try to use these mabey this will help.

[TempestGarden]

Okay, I have an idea. I am going to list for you the steps that I am taking to do this project and maybe you can spot something that I am doing wrong that will clear up this problem for me, since I am pretty much a newbie to this anyways.

Here we go...

First of all, I am adding subtitles to an anime DVD. In order to do that, I am using the subtitles from a fansub of the show. I am using the program Subtitle Workshop to do my initial timing of the subs. When I am finished with this, I then load up these subs into the program DVDSubber where I am able to view the actual DVD video with the subtitles that I have timed and then make corrections to those timings based on the actual DVD video that I am watching. Once completed, I save this file as an .ssa or .srt and this becomes the actual file that I am importing into DVDLabPro.

Now.... here is where the possible problem with all of this may actually be. In Subtitle Workshop there are two setting that you can change the values of... one is called "Input FPS" and "FPS" which I know to mean "Frames per Second". Keeping in mind that the actual DVD is a NTSC, region 2 disc from Japan, what setting should these two things I previously mentioned be at? Also, I have to check, but I think the actual fansub .avi file might be a different FPS than the DVD. But, I don't think that should matter though, since I am doing the FINAL timing with DVDSubber while using the actual DVD ISO image file.

Can you see anything wrong with what I am doing up until this point, and whether or not this might be where the problem is?

[manono]

Hi-

First, I think you're doing way too much work. Why are you doing the timing twice? You have to determine first if the fansubs are from a PAL or an NTSC source. From what were they fansubbed? The original Japanese TV show capture or something like that? Then they're NTSC 23.976fps. A Japanese DVD of the series or movie? Again, NTSC 23.976fps. A PAL DVD or TV capture? Then they're 25fps. Once you figure that out, if your subs are from an NTSC source, and you're going for NTSC output, then you're OK, except for perhaps adjusting the delay. If from a PAL source, then you have to adjust the speed, a very easy thing to do, as well as maybe the delay. I don't know where you got the subs, but many of the subs sites will tell you, either in the title, at the top of the subs themselves, or perhaps in some accompanying documentation. Even if you don't have, and can't get that information, it's a fairly easy matter to correct them without going over them line by line.

I've never used your 2 programs, Subtitle Workshop and DVDSubber. However, I have used SubStation Alpha extensively for this. You make an 8-bit Mono WAV file of the audio, and you can synch them to the audio quite easily. No video, but still all you need to get the job done. In addition, you can open the AVI in VDubMod if you want a picture at the same time, in order to see who's talking, or when his lips start to move.

Edit: I see it's a DVD. I'd make a D2V project file in DGIndex, and an AviSynth script file with the SSA subs, open it in VDubMod, to check if the subs line up with the lip movements. Either that or use the WAV file in SubStation Alpha to see that the subs match the audio dialog

Here's how I would do it, if I didn't know the source of the subs. Before starting, save a copy of the original subs somewhere, so if you screw up along the way, you'll always have the original to use over again. First, synch the subs to the opening dialog. Adjust the delay for the whole thing so that the opening dialog matches up. This is easily done in SubStation Alpha up at the top, in Timing->Shift Times. Save it and then test it by checking the synch against the WAV file in SubStation Alpha. Advance to different places to check if it remains in synch. If, as you go along, the subs start to appear more and more before the voice is heard, then you can be sure that the subs are PAL. You can fix that either in SubStation Alpha in Timing->Timer Speed/Ramp Time, or in a number of other programs, such as VobSub Cutter, which comes in the VobSub package. You'll be changing 25 to 23.976 (SubStation Alpha works with a percentage). Then you can check the subs by playing them with the audio, and make slight corrections in SubStation Alpha by seeing if the subs match up against the WAV file. But if these are decent subs to begin with (by no means guaranteed), you shouldn't have to do much additional work.

In Subtitle Workshop there are two setting that you can change the values of... one is called "Input FPS" and "FPS" which I know to mean "Frames per Second".

Your output is obviously 23.976fps. You can make a couple of copies, one with source at 23.976 and another with the source at 25 and see which is better, that is, which synchs up better.

And although I don't use DVD Lab for authoring, I doubt that it's screwing up the sub timings. I expect you're screwing them up yourself somewhere along the line. In any event, I make SUP files from SSA using 3 programs, which I then feed into Muxman for authoring.

I realize that everything I've written goes against your method. Maybe you can pick and choose something you might find useful. However, if you're floundering, you might start over and use my method. Might even save you time in the long run. Plus, you might learn something for your next similar project.

[skeg64]

I have done a few of these types of things. What movie/series is it?

[TempestGarden]

Thanks for the replies.

My biggest problem is that I am pretty much a newbie to this...

So, with your huge explanation, I am finding that I am not understanding some of the stuff you are telling me to do. Basically, I am trying to add subtitles to an ALREADY authored Japanese, R2, NTSC DVD. I used to use SubStationAlpha to time using the wave file, but I didn't find my timings to be very accurate that way and I had to make quite a few adjustments. After I was satisfied with my INITIAL timing in SSA, I would then load them with my DVD video file in DVDSubber, mainly so I can get an idea of what my final results will be like and make any tweaks with that program to the timings if need be. Once I am happy with the timings, this is the file that I am trying to use in DVDLabPro. But, them minute I hit "import subs" into the program, it is altering the time of every single line. That's what I am not understanding... as far as WHY it's doing that, and how I can correct it. If it has something to do with the FPS, then I need to find out what I SHOULD be doing instead. I have never used the other program that you are talking about, so I don't have a clue how to use it, but I definitely don't need to re-author the DVD, just add on the subtitles.

The series, btw, is Kanon.

[skeg64]

well, I haven't done that series, but I did find this. When you import to DVD-Lab, it changes the time format to a FPS based time, i.e. HH:MM:SS:FF, instead of HH:MM:SSD, where D are 1/10 sec. So it changes from fractions of a second into frames. That could be the "change" you are noticing.

Try importing the subs and exporting them back to srt and compare THAT with the original subs, to see if it is really changing the timing or just the timecode.

[manono]

...but I definitely don't need to re-author the DVD, just add on the subtitles.

What do you think DVDLabPro does? It's an authoring app. isn't it? You add subs, you reauthor. I didn't know it allowed you to mess with the already set timings. So maybe there are ways to go wrong once you import the subs. However, if you already have the timing correct when you import the subs into it, then both source and output framerates are 23.976fps. I took a look at it a few times and decided I didn't need it. For fitting reencoded movies and extras back into the original DVDs (and for what you're doing), freeware tools are much easier to use.

And if you already have good SSA subs at some point, and you continue to have problems, I can give you instructions either here or by PM on how to convert the subs to DVD compliant SUP files, demux your assets, add in the subs and author with the freeware, very good, and very simple Muxman, and then fit the newly reauthored DVD back into the original DVD, keeping the original menu and extras, if any. Good luck.

[TempestGarden]

well, I haven't done that series, but I did find this. When you import to DVD-Lab, it changes the time format to a FPS based time, i.e. HH:MM:SS:FF, instead of HH:MM:SSD, where D are 1/10 sec. So it changes from fractions of a second into frames. That could be the "change" you are noticing.

Try importing the subs and exporting them back to srt and compare THAT with the original subs, to see if it is really changing the timing or just the timecode.

Yeah, I have done exactly what you are saying... comparing the two times and they look different to me; each line does. Also, when I end up burning the results to DVD+R, the timing of the subs is indeed off, whereas it was correct before.

[SLK001]

I use SubStationAlpha to time the subs that I create myself with the "Time from .WAV File" option. The subs are always "dead-on" (although there may need to be a timing shift done on the subs for the correct STARTING TIME).

@manono - the outputs should be timed on the DISPLAYED frame rate, or 29.97fps.

[manono]

Hi SLK001-

Are you talking about DVDLabPro? I can't contest that, as I've never used it. Actually, I did try a couple of times. It insisted on sticking the huge 1 MB bitmaps in the C Drive, and I couldn't figure out how to send them somewhere else. And since I use the C Drive only for the OS, I didn't have the room, and it would always abort. Every program I've ever used (and I said I haven't used his) called for 23.976fps for NTSC. But if I had ever seen a displayed output rate listed somewhere, I would have understood. I apologize for the mistake.

[ericf]

I wanted to add my findings to this post as well.

DVD-Lab Pro does indeed change timings.

I also use DVD Subber to time my subs to the DVD.
I export to SSA and the import it to DVD-Lab Pro.
What happens then is that I get a subtitle that is way too late in starting. I always have to move the originally perfectly timed subs -65 to -100 earlier to make them start at the right time. And I tend to have to adjust the timing of the file again somewhere inside the movie since it goes late again.
I don't know anything about converting a srt to a srt and changing the framerate. Why? Because if the file is correctly timed to the DVD, shouldn't the framerate be correct as well? Is there a way of making a SSA or Srt file show FPS instead of timings? Would that, in some way, make DVD-Lab Pro read them correctly?

The guides for DVD-Lab Pro are well done. But no one else seems to have these problems with subtitles and timing.
I wonder what they do that I don't. I just follow the guides and since all I have is the DVD and the sub a perfectly timed sub should work fine, shouldn't it?
ericf

EDIT: I just thought about something:
If I set the DVDfilter (WinDVD, PowerDVD) I'm using for DVD Subber for progressive output, would the sub be timed correctly or not? Should I use interlaced output when I time the subs?
ericf

[simonko]

DVDLab Pro does mess up on subtitle timing. Using DVDLab Pro I'd have to manually tweak, by watching the final output and fine adjusting the timing. (There were even times when certain lines of subs just would'nt show) The time you place in the Sub window doesn't correspond all the time to the actual output. And yes I know the diffence in frame rates of the video. (Sometimes I spent 3 days fixing timing on like 100 lines of subs)

Most of the time I rip commercial Anime and edit them. I use their timing and subs. (I hate waiting so I remove FBI warnings, Main Menu, Removing lame episodes, etc...)

I fixed my problem by actually saving up and purchasing Sonic DVDit Pro 6. It doesnt mess up on subs and It is way more powerful. (I can place the subs anywhere I want, and preview before compiling!) I could if I wanted to, actually make professional commercial grade looking DVDs now.

If you can't legally afford Sonic DVDit Pro 6... I guess you could go P2P and get it for free.

Do not advocate warez
You are in breach of the forum rules and are being issued with a formal warning.
/ Moderator redwudz

[lordsmurf]

If you can't [sic] afford Sonic DVDit Pro 6...

Waste of time. Software is total crap, forces re-encodes of already-complaint MPEG footage (random error, not everybody sees it).

Ulead DVDWS2 does great subs. Use with Subtitle Workshop.

[simonko]

lordsmurf,

Don't you add the subtitle stream to the vob file(s) ? Thus, wouldnt it have to be re-encoded? If I'm wrong please explain.

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/ Moderator Craig Tucker

[manono]

Hi-

I think I remember using Sonic DVDIt in my very earliest days of making DVD backups. I'd hand it a nicely encoded M2V and wondered why it took so long to author. A short time later I realized it was reencoding the video. Maybe I missed a setting to prevent that, but that was the last time I ever used it.

To add a sub stream to a DVD, it first has to be demuxed, and then reauthored with the new or replacement subs (without reencoding). I should also say that I will have already reencoded the video to shrink it to DVD5 size, and will be authoring for the first time with the various assets (video, audio, subs, and chapters).

This is such a simple procedure that I certainly wouldn't use a Sonic product (or DVDLab Pro) for the job. If you use something simple like Muxman or IFOEdit, you get the subs into SUP format (or also SST for Muxman), author, and if inserting back into the original DVD with the menus, use the Replace button in VobBlanker. That's how I do it, and I've done it hundreds of times, although maybe only a dozen times with newly created or heavily edited subs.